Dropping Windows 7/8/8.1

[AJBruner77]

I understand Valve wants to keep STEAM up to date. However, in doing so it should not cost users access to the library of content they paid for. It is theft, plain and simple.

How else do you describe paying for something, having access to that something, then someone comes over and removes your access to the something? If that is not theft, I do not know what is.

Like buying a car, using the car, and then Valve uses a device to disable to the car.

If nothing else, software already in a user's library before the Windows 7 drop date arrives, should be accessible in some way outside of STEAM. it is not too much to ask. Especially when many users have already created content via the workshops for a lot of software. That means they no longer have access to the things they created. How is that not theft?

I heard all about how STEAM is using Chrome Extensions. I come from a time when everyone had to use Front Page Extensions, but we still managed to not remove access to material after migrating to another alternative, because the whole goal was not to inconvenience the users with our software issues and coding choices, and it surely was not to take away content they created, see what I'm saying?

An operating system upgrade means a new computer. That means paying for the new computer, and all the software licenses. It's not a simple thing, or a cheap one, if one is living on a fixed income. Users also have to consider if the new operating system is even going to support the software they already have.

That is why I stopped at Windows 7 for the software I work with, because Windows 10 "broke" a lot of what I wanted to use. Otherwise I would have to have paid for a new software license for an updated version. (In the case of Adobe Photoshop, a newer version means paying a monthly subscription fee for their "Creative Suite", that I never had to do with the version I paid for years ago.) In other cases, there is no "newer" version of the software that even exists. Tons of retro games fall into this category, for example.

The Subscriber agreement says nothing about having to keep an operating system up to date, or lose access to the subscriber library.

[Crazy Tiger]

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

If that is not theft, I do not know what is.

How is it theft when you agreed to it?

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

An operating system upgrade means a new computer.

Only when it's a really old computer. Most people that run Win7 can run Win10.

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

Tons of retro games fall into this category, for example.

Those will work fine. I run games from the 80s and upwards on my Win10 device. It's rare I run into a game that won't run on Win10. Some might need a tweak or two to get a better resolution or such things, but they're playable.

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

The Subscriber agreement says nothing about having to keep an operating system up to date, or lose access to the subscriber library.

Yes, it does.

https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/
Relevant part, extra emphasis in bold:

For reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Valve may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions of or otherwise enhance the Content and Services and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Content and Services may change over time.

Edit: These are the options you have:
- Update to Win 10/11;
- Switch to Linux;
- Multiboot;
- Use a config trick or other workaround to keep the Steam Client from updating and use it in offline mode on your Win 7;
- Go through local consumer agencies/lawyers and see if there is a legal way to stop Valve.

[korytoombs]

You do know that you don't need Windows to run Steam. team has its own OS.

So, you refuse to use the Steam OS, which is free.

Steam isn't required to offer its service to Windows at all.

[AJBruner77]

Thanks for your reply, Crazy Tiger.

What you posted sounds an awful lot like what the Support people I already talked to had responded with, in that they only addressed half of what was said, because it is the other half that was left out that I am talking about, and which is the basis of my entire point.

As I said, the Subscriber agreement never says *if you don't update you will lose access to content in the library*.

It just says Valve can update the software, which could change the requirements for Content and Services, but it does not say; not updating means you lose access to the library.

Lose access to use STEAM, sure. Lose the ability to launch any of the software outside of STEAM, no.

Lots of software could just run locally, but I know others are hooked into STEAM, and so for those I would expect to just not be able to use anything to do with STEAM. Like how you can use ORIGIN in Offline mode, like you mentioned the config hack.

So if I purchased the software, and I had to update my OS, and it breaks the software. I'm not getting that money back, and I'm still without the software.

That's what I mean about theft.

Does that make more sense?

Switching to Linux I knew to be an option from one of the Support people, but doing so feels excessive just for STEAM.

Admittedly it's been awhile, but the last time I did run Linux, I spent well over a week trying to get WINE to support several programs without crashing. So historically speaking, it doesn't sound like a "good" option.

By going along with updates, here is an example of what I am saying:
At some point in the future, I purchase another piece of software to be used with STEAM, and the next day an announcement is made about dropping support for the OS currently being used. So I spend money and update the OS. The next day, another announcement is made that support for that OS is being dropped. So on and so forth until Valve goes under.

The problem is that there is nothing to "cap" this, and it's a really good way to take advantage of consumers with "Junk fees". There is no timetable as to when these changes are made or how often.

Which means that just because we agreed to the terms, does not mean we agreed to pay additional fees not mentioned or defined in those terms.

Was that a bit more clear?

Bring forced to pay junk fees is actually fraudulent according to the FTC in the U.S.

Using STEAM offline would be an ideal fix actually. I would hope that would be a workable solution for games purchased prior to the drop date, or for anyone using an older OS and older version of STEAM.

Thanks for mentioning that, and for your time.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

Thanks for your reply, Crazy Tiger.

What you posted sounds an awful lot like what the Support people I already talked to had responded with, in that they only addressed half of what was said, because it is the other half that was left out that I am talking about, and which is the basis of my entire point.

As I said, the Subscriber agreement never says *if you don't update you will lose access to content in the library*.

It just says Valve can update the software, which could change the requirements for Content and Services, but it does not say; not updating means you lose access to the library.

Lose access to use STEAM, sure. Lose the ability to launch any of the software outside of STEAM, no.

Lots of software could just run locally, but I know others are hooked into STEAM, and so for those I would expect to just not be able to use anything to do with STEAM. Like how you can use ORIGIN in Offline mode, like you mentioned the config hack.

So if I purchased the software, and I had to update my OS, and it breaks the software. I'm not getting that money back, and I'm still without the software.

That's what I mean about theft.

Does that make more sense?

Switching to Linux I knew to be an option from one of the Support people, but doing so feels excessive just for STEAM.

Admittedly it's been awhile, but the last time I did run Linux, I spent well over a week trying to get WINE to support several programs without crashing. So historically speaking, it doesn't sound like a "good" option.

By going along with updates, here is an example of what I am saying:
At some point in the future, I purchase another piece of software to be used with STEAM, and the next day an announcement is made about dropping support for the OS currently being used. So I spend money and update the OS. The next day, another announcement is made that support for that OS is being dropped. So on and so forth until Valve goes under.

The problem is that there is nothing to "cap" this, and it's a really good way to take advantage of consumers with "Junk fees". There is no timetable as to when these changes are made or how often.

Which means that just because we agreed to the terms, does not mean we agreed to pay additional fees not mentioned or defined in those terms.

Was that a bit more clear?

Bring forced to pay junk fees is actually fraudulent according to the FTC in the U.S.

Using STEAM offline would be an ideal fix actually. I would hope that would be a workable solution for games purchased prior to the drop date, or for anyone using an older OS and older version of STEAM.

Thanks for mentioning that, and for your time.

They don't have to specifically detail out that it would remove access to using the client. They tell you that the requirement will change over time. That requirement is what is needed to access content(your games) and services(the client and Steam's DRM). There is no theft because you agreed to those terms.

[Nx Machina]

"Content" and services includes games because you are using the Steam client.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by nullable:

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

Like buying a car, using the car, and then Valve uses a device to disable to the car.

Like buying a gasoline car, and then driving it until there's no more gas stations. And having a fit about how gas stations should remain open for your one car. And claiming you've been robbed when that doesn't happen?

Ooh, I like it! That's some quality analogy-crafting.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by AJBruner77:

It just says Valve can update the software, which could change the requirements for Content and Services, but it does not say; not updating means you lose access to the library.

False, it actually states

accordingly, the system requirements to use the Content and Services may change over time.

Very clearly stated. The requirements to use steams content and services will be changing and requiring Windows 10 or newer. Exactly as they told you might happen.

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Originally posted by nullable:

Like buying a gasoline car, and then driving it until there's no more gas stations. And having a fit about how gas stations should remain open for your one car. And claiming you've been robbed when that doesn't happen?

Ooh, I like it! That's some quality analogy-crafting.

Or with phones and 3g networks when they were shut down.

Or with AC units when they replaced the freon type meaning people had to replace their AC units and couldn't just repair them anymore, etc.

It happens.

[Mad Scientist]

It's not theft if all you need to do is upgrade the base software; the Operating System. You may also use Linux or the SteamOS in order to access the library, but only compatible games can be launched or operate successfully.

Unfortunately some things need to update for various reasons in order to function with security & performance in mind, thus something ever-evolving on Steam; an always update platform is to be expected. When using such a thing, it should be expected the program itself may eventually receive updates which most likely will not work long term for older OS's, as demonstrated by WinXP being axed a long time ago.

You don't need a new computer unless it's severely outdated, which to that point most of the CPU and HDD is likely being used by the OS and Steam itself, meaning almost nothing could realistically run well on the machine regardless, so 2001-2003 is not something one should still be running for a modern gaming app.

[Falmingkitter]

A lot of people still not understanding the difference between morality and legality. Steam can "legally" kill your steam client for windows 7, but it would be highly immoral to do so.

[Crazy Tiger]

Originally posted by Falmingkitter:

A lot of people still not understanding the difference between morality and legality. Steam can "legally" kill your steam client for windows 7, but it would be highly immoral to do so.

"Morality" is a subjective human concept, though. It differs from region to region, culture to culture, upbringing to upbringing, person to person, etc.

One could say that people agreeing to the terms of a platform, then wanting to change them when it inconveniences them is highly immoral as well.

People also seem to forget that Valve dropping support for an older operating system in such a way is nothing new. 4th time now.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Falmingkitter:

A lot of people still not understanding the difference between morality and legality. Steam can "legally" kill your steam client for windows 7, but it would be highly immoral to do so.

Not really, if anyone blame microsoft for being immoral for no longer supporting the OS THEY sold people when so many still used it....

Its not just steam cutting support, everyone is phasing it out.

[Nx Machina]

Originally posted by Falmingkitter:

A lot of people still not understanding the difference between morality and legality. Steam can "legally" kill your steam client for windows 7, but it would be highly immoral to do so.

Immoral? Software evolves and Win 7 is past it's sell by date. Microsoft killed it.

[Deadweight]

Originally posted by SlowMango:

They don't have to specifically detail out that it would remove access to using the client. They tell you that the requirement will change over time. That requirement is what is needed to access content(your games) and services(the client and Steam's DRM). There is no theft because you agreed to those terms.

Content in their legal possession, not in someone else's. They don't own the copy of a game that you've bought from them, you do. They can't legally make decisions over how or when you use it after they've sold it to you, they no longer have ownership of it. This obviously includes preventing you from using a game if you've bought it and have it on your computer.

The terms of SSA isn't law, the law supersedes it. If something they're doing isn't legal, it doesn't matter what you agreed to with the SSA.

[Crazy Tiger]

Originally posted by Deadweight:

The terms of SSA isn't law, the law supersedes it. If something they're doing isn't legal, it doesn't matter what you agreed to with the SSA.

And as long as nobody actually brings it to courts, none of that matters either.

Every time Support gets dropped for older Windows versions on Steam, people threaten with lawsuits. Either people are all talk and no action, or their cases got dismissed, but nothing important happened.

[Nx Machina]

Originally posted by Deadweight:

Content in their legal possession, not in someone else's. They don't own the copy of a game that you've bought from them, you do.

Nope you purchases licences, not games.