Remove automated community wide ban system

[Shreddy]

Currently when more than one game discussion ban is active an automated community wide ban kicks in, the last one I had was for six months which means a steam account that has limited functionality (can’t edit profile etc). This would be great if it were Steam employees who were working to an objective standard and bans were given out fairly based around that but unfortunately anyone who has community discussion section on steam (even if they don’t sell or giveaway any games) can give out these bans that can very easily lead to an automated ban being given out.

Take Psyonix and their game rocket league for example, Rocket league isn’t sold on steam, it isn’t even given away, yet because they have a community discussion section they can give out bans. I’ve received and had overturned several permanent bans from this forum with the last being for mentioning Easter and some other events that Psyonix spends a month at a time promoting in game and on their forum. I mentioned these in a thread made by another user who was asking why the Easter event that has featured since launch was removed but other political based events are left in game. I voiced my opinion that Easter was a good event and that the other political events they promote are hateful and would be better not in game. A Psyonix employee went through the thread and permanently banned everyone who was in favour of the Easter event or was critical of the political events with the ban reason being “mentioning religion or politics” (keep in mind Psyonix announces their political events in game and in the forum and leaves their announcement threads open for comment….so they must break their own rules). I went through all this with valve support and they agree that Psyonix acted unreasonably and overturned the ban however that doesn’t stop the automated system from kicking in and giving the steam account a community wide automated ban that can last months or even longer.

For an account to be banned from the entire community when they are a paying customer who has spent thousands and the company that caused the ban doesn’t even sell games on steam this should be required to be verified by a real human being who works for valve rather than an automated system that will see loyal customers punished and rogue devs getting to ruin the platform.

EDIT 01-08-2023: this thread itself has now demonstrated the exact bias I was talking about, yesterday I was banned from steam and this thread deleted after a political activist parading as a moderator took issue with the objective facts pointed out in the thread. I was banned for 24 hours and this thread deleted before a senior employee at valve was able to take a look and restore the thread and remove the ban. We need a better system than this and to the low quality moderator who tried to silence it: grow up.

EDIT 01-08-2023: Another rogue mod locked the thread and banned me, this required a senior valve employee to unban me and unlock the thread for the second time in two days. It's clear that there is a major problem with the community ban system in general not just the automated system. Once again to the mod who tried to ban me: grow up.

EDIT 11-08-2023: One week ago I received a 52 week community wide ban for harassing players in this discussion, after a week of arguing with support and them being completely unable to produce any evidence of player harassment I have now been unbanned for a third time over this thread. I would like to thank everyone who contributed here but moving forward I will no longer be participating as it's clearly seriously jeopardising my account, I sure would love to know whats so upsetting about this discussion that they have tried to silence it and ban me so many times, it seems like a reasonable suggestion to me.

[76561199502155650]

Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:

Originalmente postado por _galaxy:

Like you said, some not all. Which means it's not a perfect solution.

Their mall, their rules.

most malls went bankrupt and many are permantly closed. also the stores in the malls choose to seek there own brick and mortar shops vs massing together.

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers, or consumers will flock to other locations where the same goods are priced cheaper.

this happened to toys are us, its happening to steam.

mass community bans are basicly broken as well, if you dispute a game hub you get banned off it, if you dispute steams policy you get banned for it, if you dispute both you get a community ban, it takes nothing more then being banned in two differnt hubs at once to trigger a community ban.

they also escalate, and if you use your steam program, while an account is in community ban, even on a differnt account it will carry that community ban over to the other account.


example is if you have a bad friend who likes to taunt people on steam, and then you log into steam with your own account on the same computer, it will trigger that community ban onto your profile.

[_galaxy]

Originalmente postado por Please don't stop the Posting:

Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:

Their mall, their rules.

most malls went bankrupt and many are permantly closed. also the stores in the malls choose to seek there own brick and mortar shops vs massing together.

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers, or consumers will flock to other locations where the same goods are priced cheaper.

this happened to toys are us, its happening to steam.

mass community bans are basicly broken as well, if you dispute a game hub you get banned off it, if you dispute steams policy you get banned for it, if you dispute both you get a community ban, it takes nothing more then being banned in two differnt hubs at once to trigger a community ban.

they also escalate, and if you use your steam program, while an account is in community ban, even on a differnt account it will carry that community ban over to the other account.


example is if you have a bad friend who likes to taunt people on steam, and then you log into steam with your own account on the same computer, it will trigger that community ban onto your profile.

Amazing point.

You really wonder why so many cinemas go bankrupt when they sell overly expensive popcorn and wall anyone that tries bringing their own sodas and snacks into the cinema.

[Zarineth]

Originalmente postado por Please don't stop the Posting:

Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:

Their mall, their rules.

most malls went bankrupt and many are permantly closed. also the stores in the malls choose to seek there own brick and mortar shops vs massing together.

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers, or consumers will flock to other locations where the same goods are priced cheaper.

this happened to toys are us, its happening to steam.

mass community bans are basicly broken as well, if you dispute a game hub you get banned off it, if you dispute steams policy you get banned for it, if you dispute both you get a community ban, it takes nothing more then being banned in two differnt hubs at once to trigger a community ban.

they also escalate, and if you use your steam program, while an account is in community ban, even on a differnt account it will carry that community ban over to the other account.


example is if you have a bad friend who likes to taunt people on steam, and then you log into steam with your own account on the same computer, it will trigger that community ban onto your profile.

It's funny, when you read "most malls went bankrupt or are permanently closed", when there are 4 malls in your city and all of them work just fine... Any source for you claim, or it's your favourite "what runs my narrative"?

Games on steam cost exactly the same as on any other platform. This argument was discussed multiple times and is as bs as always.

If you constantly break rules, don't be surpirised you get banned. And getting constantly banned, means that YOU are the problem, not the rules.

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Originalmente postado por Please don't stop the Posting:

most malls went bankrupt and many are permantly closed. also the stores in the malls choose to seek there own brick and mortar shops vs massing together.

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers, or consumers will flock to other locations where the same goods are priced cheaper.

this happened to toys are us, its happening to steam.

Toys 'R' Us went bankrupt due to online retailers and not because other brick and mortar stores were popping up.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Originalmente postado por cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Originalmente postado por Please don't stop the Posting:

most malls went bankrupt and many are permantly closed. also the stores in the malls choose to seek there own brick and mortar shops vs massing together.

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers, or consumers will flock to other locations where the same goods are priced cheaper.

this happened to toys are us, its happening to steam.

Toys 'R' Us went bankrupt due to online retailers and not because other brick and mortar stores were popping up.

:summercat2023:

That and Walmart.

[cSg|mc-Hotsauce]

Originalmente postado por AmsterdamHeavy:

Originalmente postado por cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Toys 'R' Us went bankrupt due to online retailers and not because other brick and mortar stores were popping up.

That and Walmart.

Basically Amazon and Wal-Mart but Wal-Mart was already a stand alone store that was around for decades.

[Dimenio]

Originalmente postado por RiO:

Moreover, any such decisions must be accompanied by a thorough explanation of which exact terms of service were violated and the reasoning as to how or why. This information must have a level of detail suitable for legal redress. I.e. it has to be detailed enough that, should a user end up needing or wanting to take the online platform to court over a dispute, the information can be supplied and used as viable evidence.

This is where I can only say that I'm very skeptical if that's even possible. I'm a lawyer so I know what the difference is between legal text and the Community Guidelines or a moderation message and they are universes apart. I don't think that it's fair to ask a moderator who is generally just "some guy" without any special qualification whatsoever to follow rules that they honestly lack the formal education to properly understand and apply.

I guess that in an ideal world moderation would be viewed as more important and it would be done by lawyers or people who received specific education for that but in order to do that first companies like Valve should actually start paying mods fairly or in the case of some companies paying them at all.

One thing's for sure: as somebody who got to experience early 2000s internet forums I really hope that some day that level of free speech and thought will return to modern online spaces

Anyway I don't follow EU legislation apart from a few very specific areas so I haven't heard anything about this. Please provide a source, would love to read through it in my off hours.

[Tanoomba]

Originalmente postado por Please don't stop the Posting:

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers, or consumers will flock to other locations where the same goods are priced cheaper.

this happened to toys are us, its happening to steam.

Is it? Seems to me Steam's doing better than ever. What's your source for this claim?

[Tito Shivan]

Originalmente postado por Please don't stop the Posting:

at the same time steam should consider about lowering its prices to its vendors, and the vendors in turn lowing the price to the consumers

I have to admit at times I find your naivety charming.

Originalmente postado por Zarineth:

It's funny, when you read "most malls went bankrupt or are permanently closed", when there are 4 malls in your city and all of them work just fine... Any source for you claim, or it's your favourite "what runs my narrative"?

May want to take a look at who you're talking with. 'His narrative' is rather peculiar.

Originalmente postado por Dimenio:

This is where I can only say that I'm very skeptical if that's even possible. I'm a lawyer so I know what the difference is between legal text and the Community Guidelines or a moderation message and they are universes apart. I don't think that it's fair to ask a moderator who is generally just "some guy" without any special qualification whatsoever to follow rules that they honestly lack the formal education to properly understand and apply.

My 2c on this is it's going to end in a similar way as browser cookies warnings ended. Companies will redact template answers for the moderation teams to issue.
The sheer volume of moderation actions makes it a Kafka-esque bureaucratic nightmare to untangle.

Originalmente postado por Dimenio:

I guess that in an ideal world moderation would be viewed as more important and it would be done by lawyers or people who received specific education for that but in order to do that first companies like Valve should actually start paying mods fairly or in the case of some companies paying them at all.

The problem is that moderation at that level of skill isn't scalable. And Steam is a significantly smaller place to moderate. Now imagine doing that at the scale of Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, Twitch... There's simply not that many people at that skill level even if you offer a good paycheck. Content moderation in the age of social sites is a highly assimetric battle.

And education and knowledge factors aside there's the fact that the job itself is extremely grating. It's a people meat grinder, the more the bigger the site.

Originalmente postado por Garbage:

If you're going to have any morality system in life, why choose "lawful" instead of "good"?

I'm old enough to know to pick my fights. Nowadays there's enough venues on the internet to find one with the morality system you want if this one doesn't please you. I learned long ago to tell apart giants from windmills.

[Tito Shivan]

Originalmente postado por Garbage:

Boring Don Quixote metaphor aside, that doesn't excuse your laughable philosophy that lawfulness takes place over morality, nor does it the childish notion of "don't like it? Go elsewhere" which you just put into different wording.

You go ram the windmills over lawfulness. Meanwhile I'll take my non-welcomed comments about (IE) Rocket league elsewhere out of the dev and Steam's 'lawfulness' reach.

As I said. I pick my fights.

[RiO]

Originalmente postado por Dimenio:

Originalmente postado por RiO:

Moreover, any such decisions must be accompanied by a thorough explanation of which exact terms of service were violated and the reasoning as to how or why. This information must have a level of detail suitable for legal redress. I.e. it has to be detailed enough that, should a user end up needing or wanting to take the online platform to court over a dispute, the information can be supplied and used as viable evidence.

This is where I can only say that I'm very skeptical if that's even possible. I'm a lawyer so I know what the difference is between legal text and the Community Guidelines or a moderation message and they are universes apart. I don't think that it's fair to ask a moderator who is generally just "some guy" without any special qualification whatsoever to follow rules that they honestly lack the formal education to properly understand and apply.

I guess that in an ideal world moderation would be viewed as more important and it would be done by lawyers or people who received specific education for that but in order to do that first companies like Valve should actually start paying mods fairly or in the case of some companies paying them at all.

One thing's for sure: as somebody who got to experience early 2000s internet forums I really hope that some day that level of free speech and thought will return to modern online spaces

Anyway I don't follow EU legislation apart from a few very specific areas so I haven't heard anything about this. Please provide a source, would love to read through it in my off hours.

Sure. The best source I can give you is the actual legal text:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32022R2065

See Article 17.4 for the requirement that provided statement of reasons should be detailed enough to allow effective redress. See 17.3(f) for the fact that this also covers judicial redress.

See Article 17 overall for other requirements wrt statement of reasons.

[Goldrush]

Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:

It takes quite a number of forum bans for automated community bans to kick in.

All it takes is 2 bans at the same time.
For example Steam Hub + Game forum.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Originalmente postado por U-bot:

Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:

It takes quite a number of forum bans for automated community bans to kick in.

All it takes is 2 bans at the same time.
For example Steam Hub + Game forum.

It takes more.

[Tito Shivan]

Originalmente postado por SlowMango:

Originalmente postado por U-bot:

All it takes is 2 bans at the same time.
For example Steam Hub + Game forum.

It takes more.

It indeed does. Unless Valve has decided to lower the bar in the last year, two forum bans do not trigger a full community ban.

[AROCK!!!]

Originalmente postado por Tito Shivan:

Originalmente postado por SlowMango:

It takes more.

It indeed does. Unless Valve has decided to lower the bar in the last year, two forum bans do not trigger a full community ban.

The two community bans I got only took 2.

1st one was 2 bans in the game forums, and the 2nd was one in a game forum, and one here.