An Idea about Console Emulators !!

[Rexali_]

I know using Console Emulators is piracy. A couple months ago, the Nintendoo emulator was supposed to be released on Steam, but it was removed due to Nintendoo's request.

But what if we pay for the games we play on the emulator? For example, There are a lot of PS2 games that I want to experience on PC, such as THQ WWE games, GTA Vice City stories, and Liberty City stories.

What if Steam releases a PS2 emulator on Steam, but Steam users pay for what they want to play on that emulator? For example, if I pay for GTA Vice City stories, I can run them on that emulator.

Can this be legal if Steam makes a contract with Sony for the PS-2 Emulator ? Is there a possibility to make an agreement about this?

[Haruspex]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Start_Running:

...if the emulation sopftware is using patented code/technology then the emulator in question and use of it is illegal.

Hence what happened to Dolphin.
If you have the original game AND the emulator you use does not use proprietary tech then in is legal.

Yep, it gets a bit complex. Stuff like NES, SNES, Genesis are all reverse-engineered so there's nothing illegal about the emulator. PS2 emulators are legal, but it's illegal to download the the BIOS files necessary to actually use them. Ripping your own BIOS file from your own console could be a grey area but there's an argument that it violates the DMCA. PS3 emulators also need BIOS files, but Sony offers that freely in the form of a system update file you can download. Switch emulation is legal, but again, downloading games/keys is not, even if you own a copy. Ripping your own games and keys is another grey area as hacking your Switch to allow for this is a DMCA violation. There are exceptions made to this DMCA rule every few years, but game consoles have never been included in that. It's why it's okay to jailbreak your iPhone and your iPad, but not your Switch.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Start_Running:

Not quite right. if the emulation sopftware is using patented code/technology then the emulator in question and use of it is illegal.

Hence what happened to Dolphin.
If you have the original game AND the emulator you use does not use proprietary tech then in is legal.

Dolphin has a writeup about the situation on their official website. The item at issue is a single AES-128 key which while it could be construed as a trade secret is not in itself copyrightable.
https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2023/07/20/what-happened-to-dolphin-on-steam/#what-about-the-key

Since it is an encryption key as a way to enforce DRM, it is considered supplying a circumvention for the Wii's(since those keys don't exist in the GameCube) DRM measures.

[Crashed]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Dolphin has a writeup about the situation on their official website. The item at issue is a single AES-128 key which while it could be construed as a trade secret is not in itself copyrightable.
https://dolphin-emu.org/blog/2023/07/20/what-happened-to-dolphin-on-steam/#what-about-the-key

Since it is an encryption key as a way to enforce DRM, it is considered supplying a circumvention for the Wii's(since those keys don't exist in the GameCube) DRM measures.

And they dismiss you as an "armchair lawyer" and point out the interoperability clause.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Since it is an encryption key as a way to enforce DRM, it is considered supplying a circumvention for the Wii's(since those keys don't exist in the GameCube) DRM measures.

And they dismiss you as an "armchair lawyer" and point out the interoperability clause.

Except they even acknowledged it could be argued as such, even though it would be a reach, in the blog post you linked.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dolphin:

Considering that only a small fraction of what we do involves circumvention, we think that the claim that we are "primarily for circumvention" is a reach.

[Crashed]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

And they dismiss you as an "armchair lawyer" and point out the interoperability clause.

Except they even acknowledged it could be argued as such, even though it would be a reach, in the blog post you linked.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Dolphin:

Considering that only a small fraction of what we do involves circumvention, we think that the claim that we are "primarily for circumvention" is a reach.

Keep in mind they did consult with lawyers before making a decision, and they are still online on GitHub, Play Store, Flathub, and possibly more platforms, and they do still plan on Steam Deck compatibility tweaks.

By the way they nuked Windows 7 support last year, alongside the 3D printing software UltiMaker Cura, both by updating their Qt GUI toolkit from version 5 to 6.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Except they even acknowledged it could be argued as such, even though it would be a reach, in the blog post you linked.

Keep in mind they did consult with lawyers before making a decision, and they are still online on GitHub, Play Store, Flathub, and possibly more platforms, and they do still plan on Steam Deck compatibility tweaks.

By the way they nuked Windows 7 support last year, alongside the 3D printing software UltiMaker Cura, both by updating their Qt GUI toolkit from version 5 to 6.

I know they consulted with lawyers. I know they are still online elsewhere.

They still say, while they specify it is a reach, that is an argument that could be made. They do not think it is a valid argument because of the reach, but they admit is one.

As they imply, they willfully took down the page because of what Valve requested. It wasn't Valve or Nintendo that removed their page.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Dolphin has a writeup about the situation on their official website...

Which wasn't taken down yet, curiously. That must mean something...

Because, if you read the write up, they explain why.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Start_Running:

Not quite right. if the emulation sopftware is using patented code/technology then the emulator in question and use of it is illegal.

Hence what happened to Dolphin.
If you have the original game AND the emulator you use does not use proprietary tech then in is legal.

Ursprünglich geschrieben von brian9824:

Yep, which ironically that guide that was just posted for PS2 emulation is a clear breaking of the rules, so we will see how long before steam removes it. A perfect example of illegal emulation

:WH3_greasus_rofl::lol: That's funny considering that PPSSPP (a PlayStation Portable emulator) and Beetle PSX are on Steam:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1222630/RetroArch__Beetle_PSX/

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1234350/RetroArch__PPSSPP/

Apparently, Sony doesn't give a ♥♥♥♥.

So why isn't PCSX2 on Retroarch's Steam page too?

That might explain it:

The PCSX2-libretro core is still marked as "alpha" for a reason. It's not really ready for primetime yet. It works well enough when it works, but PCSX2 in general leans heavily on setting hacks and options for compatibility, and some of those simply aren't available in the libretro core currently (the software renderer is a big one). www.reddit.com/r/RetroArch/comments/wk0b0i/pcsx2_retroarch/

Those cores still need the bios which are not provided or told where to obtain.

The guide provides where to obtain the PS2 bios which makes it illegal.

If you read what Brian said, he specifically said the guide was the violation.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Because, if you read the write up, they explain why.

Nope, it doesn't mention anything about their own page. Unsurprisingly, you're missing the point of my previous post... as they stated, a lawyer representing Nintendo requested Valve to prevent Dolphin's release on Steam.

But the same lawyer seems to be just fine with them offering Dolphin on their own website? Not only now, but for years?

Hmm ain't that interesting... apparently, Nintendo is not a fan of Steam.

Except Nintendo system cores are provided by RetroArch on Steam.

[Crashed]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Nope, it doesn't mention anything about their own page. Unsurprisingly, you're missing the point of my previous post... as they stated, a lawyer representing Nintendo requested Valve to prevent Dolphin's release on Steam.

But the same lawyer seems to be just fine with them offering Dolphin on their own website? Not only now, but for years?

Hmm ain't that interesting... apparently, Nintendo is not a fan of Steam.

Except Nintendo system cores are provided by RetroArch on Steam.

None of them have any dependencies on any firmware to the best of my knowledge.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Those cores still need the bios which are not provided or told where to obtain.

The guide provides where to obtain the PS2 bios which makes it illegal.

If you read what Brian said, he specifically said the guide was the violation.

:lunar2019crylaughingpig: I did read it, that's why I was replying to it...

Yeah, I know how emulation works, but it seems you don't. I have bad news for you:

Even if someone extracts the bios from their own console, that's still infringing copyright law because even though you own the console, the software (firmware/BIOS/whatever) is still protected by the company, you don't have permission to rip it from the console - no one ever had. By doing so you're violating their EULA (to which you agreed in the moment you buy the console).

In short, it doesn't matter how you get a bios, it's always illegal.

And by making RetroArch available here, Valve enables illegal activity... funny, isn't it?

Except they aren't. Retroarch already went through Valve's lawyers since it was advertised in the store for years before official release.

In fact, the Steam version is limited more than the standalone version for that reason.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Crashed:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Except Nintendo system cores are provided by RetroArch on Steam.

None of them have any dependencies on any firmware to the best of my knowledge.

Nope.

Bios for systems(because of keys) didn't start until the Wii for Nintendo. All systems before that didn't have system keys for the games.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Except they aren't. Retroarch already went through Valve's lawyers since it was advertised in the store for years before official release.

In fact, the Steam version is limited more than the standalone version for that reason.

Yes, they are because people need a bios to use RetroArch, and ripping a bios from any console is not allowed by any company. Have you never read a console manual?

It's a gray area of the law.

A company saying they don't allow it doesn't make it a legal violation. Nintendo says I'm not allowed to boot my Switch with a CFW.

That doesn't mean I broke the law every time I do it.

Oh, and the guide you posted was removed because it was, in fact, illegal.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

It's a gray area of the law.

A company saying they don't allow it doesn't make it a legal violation. Nintendo says I'm not allowed to boot my Switch with a CFW.

That doesn't mean I broke the law every time I do it.

You don't have to, breaking the agreement between the user and the company gives them the right to take legal action against the user. No law is needed, actually.

That isn't how that works.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Ursprünglich geschrieben von Pierce Dalton:

Ursprünglich geschrieben von SlowMango:

Oh, and the guide you posted was removed because it was, in fact, illegal.

Who cares? So is ripping a bios from your own PS2 (or any other console). You can read some manuals here, have fun:

https://www.videogameconsolelibrary.com/art-console_manuals.htm

A company say 'don't do that' doesn't make it illegal.

Apple tried and lost with jailbreaking iPhones since they said it wasn't allowed in their manual.