Steam’s Terrible Refund Policy

[NansenHokuba]

I think 2 hours of gameplay is way too soon to determine whether or not we should request a refund for a game. When I requested twice for a refund for AC Black Flag, I was denied both times. I received a canned response stating that I had exceeded the 2 hour limit. Even though I have paid hundreds of dollars in games as a customer, they refused to refund me $11 simply because I played this janky game for 5 hours. After that time of really discovering the game’s potential, I soon felt that this was not a game I’d like to own (or ever play again). 2 hours is way too strict of a time limit for refunds. Especially when it’s just $11.

[N0X]

Mad Scientist a écrit :

N0X a écrit :

You are shadow boxing. I am not talking about maintenance or people playing for dozens of hours' was also peaking in general when I said "these issue" I'm talking about anything that clocks in play time that is not entirely thusers fault.

Waiting out queue time is debatable but customers should not be responsible for technical issues that run up there play time. It is unfair to hold them responsible for that.

There's a huge difference between "Technical issues" and things like high mmr queue times which again, points at a high hour play count that nullifies the ability to refund.

You have 2 Hours within 2 Weeks, anything else you can do a manual ticket. That is why some considerations are done if you actually use a launcher that counts time for the installation.

N0X a écrit :

Also don't be such a bootlick. "Upgrading" components and ISP does not eliminate all the problems, faster internet isn't going to do anything if the launcher is buggy or has server issues.

If you're worried about download times vs refund times, having a faster connection speed, a cpu actually capable of the download, and an NVME all assist to make it go as fast as possible. That can also eliminate other user-ended issues. Everything else can simply happen anywhere, any time, due to any one ISP or CDN involved even having a hiccup, nothing is 100% infallible. The longer equipment runs, the more likely a bug/glitch or crash is, hence why maintenance is not a "technical issue".

I would also refrain from calling people "bootlick" as it displays bad faith. Especially when it's simply telling you how to decrease download times. People need more patience in regard to temporary inconvenience.

You are still shadow boxing. No one is talking about match making systems or any other forms of
expected wait times. Quit being dishonest.


Last time I going to say this. There are games with their own launchers if they are having issues or just have a capped transfer rate, no amount of hardware or software changes is going to solve that.

And you are literally just arguing for the sake of it. You just acknowledged that steam has a manual ticket system. You are being redundant. I don't get why you steam users do this overtime you jump on someone's comment..

[Bee🐝]

DiceDsx a écrit :

OP is going to love the refund policy of 3rd party stores: you revealed your key? No refunds, even if it's sitting there unredeemed.

In the EU we can get refunds on revealed Humble Bundle and Fanatical keys. As long as you don’t start the download, you’re fine and can ask for a refund - they’ll obviously look at your specific case.

I’ve had amazing customer service from Fanatical and Humble.

[fr0bar]

You know in advance how long you have. 2 hours. You played 5 hours of a 30-40 hour game. That's 6%. You want them to let you play 5 hours of a 10 hour game too? If you don't know if you are going to like a game at 2 hours you have some self improvement to do. Furthermore, be happy you can refund anything at all. Before platforms like Steam if you bought a game and opened it there was no refunds regardless of whether you liked it.

[kitt]

N0X a écrit :

Mad Scientist a écrit :

There's a huge difference between "Technical issues" and things like high mmr queue times which again, points at a high hour play count that nullifies the ability to refund.

You have 2 Hours within 2 Weeks, anything else you can do a manual ticket. That is why some considerations are done if you actually use a launcher that counts time for the installation.


If you're worried about download times vs refund times, having a faster connection speed, a cpu actually capable of the download, and an NVME all assist to make it go as fast as possible. That can also eliminate other user-ended issues. Everything else can simply happen anywhere, any time, due to any one ISP or CDN involved even having a hiccup, nothing is 100% infallible. The longer equipment runs, the more likely a bug/glitch or crash is, hence why maintenance is not a "technical issue".

I would also refrain from calling people "bootlick" as it displays bad faith. Especially when it's simply telling you how to decrease download times. People need more patience in regard to temporary inconvenience.

You are still shadow boxing. No one is talking about match making systems or any other forms of
expected wait times. Quit being dishonest.


Last time I going to say this. There are games with their own launchers if they are having issues or just have a capped transfer rate, no amount of hardware or software changes is going to solve that.

And you are literally just arguing for the sake of it. You just acknowledged that steam has a manual ticket system. You are being redundant. I don't get why you steam users do this overtime you jump on someone's comment..

you talked about server queues..


Dunno but you close launchers when not needed or when they have issues or are you also trying to drive a car without wheels?

which launcher takes several hours to update or whatever you imply?



yea and the manual ticket has nothing to do with the normal refund process since the normal refund process is automated.

People just pointing out the the silly excuses for more refund time are silly and not believable in the slightest as I still wait for example with hardcored E/F buttons or the million of games the OP plays that are fully broken.

[Start_Running]

fr0bar a écrit :

You know in advance how long you have. 2 hours. You played 5 hours of a 30-40 hour game. That's 6%. You want them to let you play 5 hours of a 10 hour game too? If you don't know if you are going to like a game at 2 hours you have some self improvement to do. Furthermore, be happy you can refund anything at all. Before platforms like Steam if you bought a game and opened it there was no refunds regardless of whether you liked it.

If you're still waiting for the game to be enjoyable after 1 hour... you should just refund. That's my approach at any rate.

[N0X]

kitt a écrit :

N0X a écrit :

You are still shadow boxing. No one is talking about match making systems or any other forms of
expected wait times. Quit being dishonest.


Last time I going to say this. There are games with their own launchers if they are having issues or just have a capped transfer rate, no amount of hardware or software changes is going to solve that.

And you are literally just arguing for the sake of it. You just acknowledged that steam has a manual ticket system. You are being redundant. I don't get why you steam users do this overtime you jump on someone's comment..

you talked about server queues..


Dunno but you close launchers when not needed or when they have issues or are you also trying to drive a car without wheels?

which launcher takes several hours to update or whatever you imply?



yea and the manual ticket has nothing to do with the normal refund process since the normal refund process is automated.

People just pointing out the the silly excuses for more refund time are silly and not believable in the slightest as I still wait for example with hardcored E/F buttons or the million of games the OP plays that are fully broken.

I'm talking about when servers are not fully functional when a game is launched, not match making systems that are just slow.

I don't buy many games on this platform but I'm pretty sure MMO style games has their own launcher and typically you download the game and then do another download of the game that applies updates. Solutions to fixing technical issue might requiring repeating this process or running a integrity check via launcher. I can easily see someone downloading and trouble shooting a game and then putting in around 45 minutes of actually playing the game and then deciding they just don't like it and then expect a refund despite the total run time clocked on steam displaying a number that just steps over the 120 mark.

Seriously trying to debate over this is stupid. Not every single possible scenario needs some way of placing blame the consumer.

And serious remarks like "get better internet speed" is just ridiculous even if it could work because some people just cant do that even if they can afford it.

[Tanoomba]

N0X a écrit :

I can easily see someone downloading and trouble shooting a game and then putting in around 45 minutes of actually playing the game and then deciding they just don't like it and then expect a refund despite the total run time clocked on steam displaying a number that just steps over the 120 mark.

You're mistaking "You can return a game within 2 hours for ANY reason; Even if you don't like it!" for "You have the right to see if you like a game before deciding to keep it".

You are only legally entitled to a refund if the game doesn't work. The fact that you are allowed to return a game if you don't like it is a bonus, a generosity on Valve's part. It is not an acknowledgement that you can buy games just to see if you like them.

[Mad Scientist]

N0X a écrit :

I'm talking about when servers are not fully functional when a game is launched, not match making systems that are just slow.

Which is an immensely dishonest position to take as it has been pointed out that you either choose to wait in a large queue likely only on the launch day, or you choose any day after where you don't have to wait, the choice is active, the game EXE is running - that's 100% on the user.

N0X a écrit :

Seriously trying to debate over this is stupid. Not every single possible scenario needs some way of placing blame the consumer.

Most scenarios people want more time on, have been overwhelmingly people that supposedly take hours to setup the games options, keybinds etc. Things that should usually take no more than a few minutes.

The MMO thing is largely being dishonest about the reason for wanting more since multiple people have noted that's what the manual ticket system is for. They're not going to increase the overall time to demo something, they note that the refund system is not designed to demo games. MMOs usually allow a trial period with restrictions of the full game installation, so this is a non-issue

N0X a écrit :

And serious remarks like "get better internet speed" is just ridiculous even if it could work because some people just cant do that even if they can afford it.

If they can afford an MMO subscription or games frequently, they can spend a few extra dollars for faster service speed. Even talking to some of the providers workers they sometimes work with someone to increase their speed at no extra cost, but they may have bandwidth limitations to offset such a courtesy.

The main issue is people will be given entirely reasonable, logical ways to resolve a desire, but they usually make an excuse not to. If you want more, you usually have to pay for more. Else, you need to learn to use what you have. You should also be aware when you purchase some MMOs, subscription time etc that it may be subject to no refunds once activated. That is only where you can work with the Developer/Publisher to resolve the matter.

[Slav Mcgopnik]

M3SHACK a écrit :

Wow, I didn’t realize that all of you were such fervent supporters of the 2 hour limit. I like the demo idea. I just don’t understand why none of you have experienced this and have tried to get a refund. The support site says that they would consider each case. They didn’t even consider my request. I received a bot response.

You’re right, we should do what Ubisoft and Nintendo do and block your refund the second you launch the game instead.

[bigbenisdaman]

M3SHACK a écrit :

. Especially when it’s just $11.

2 hr plenty o f time to ensure the game runs. as you say, it's just a few bucks. Heck, can't even get lunch that cheap anymore.

M3SHACK a écrit :

Wow, I didn’t realize that all of you were such fervent supporters of the 2 hour limit. I like the demo idea. I just don’t understand why none of you have experienced this and have tried to get a refund. The support site says that they would consider each case. They didn’t even consider my request. I received a bot response.

Cuz, I don't care about money that much.

[N0X]

Mad Scientist a écrit :

N0X a écrit :

I'm talking about when servers are not fully functional when a game is launched, not match making systems that are just slow.

Which is an immensely dishonest position to take as it has been pointed out that you either choose to wait in a large queue likely only on the launch day, or you choose any day after where you don't have to wait, the choice is active, the game EXE is running - that's 100% on the user.

N0X a écrit :

Seriously trying to debate over this is stupid. Not every single possible scenario needs some way of placing blame the consumer.

Most scenarios people want more time on, have been overwhelmingly people that supposedly take hours to setup the games options, keybinds etc. Things that should usually take no more than a few minutes.

The MMO thing is largely being dishonest about the reason for wanting more since multiple people have noted that's what the manual ticket system is for. They're not going to increase the overall time to demo something, they note that the refund system is not designed to demo games. MMOs usually allow a trial period with restrictions of the full game installation, so this is a non-issue

N0X a écrit :

And serious remarks like "get better internet speed" is just ridiculous even if it could work because some people just cant do that even if they can afford it.

If they can afford an MMO subscription or games frequently, they can spend a few extra dollars for faster service speed. Even talking to some of the providers workers they sometimes work with someone to increase their speed at no extra cost, but they may have bandwidth limitations to offset such a courtesy.

The main issue is people will be given entirely reasonable, logical ways to resolve a desire, but they usually make an excuse not to. If you want more, you usually have to pay for more. Else, you need to learn to use what you have. You should also be aware when you purchase some MMOs, subscription time etc that it may be subject to no refunds once activated. That is only where you can work with the Developer/Publisher to resolve the matter.

I just said more than once now I'm not only referring to wait timers like lines. Stop shadow boxing.

Like I said this is stupid. You keep mentioning that people can put in manually tickets so I don't know why you keep writing paragraphs trying to debate over this.

All you are doing is bring up situations that I didn't even mention just to respond for the sake of it and going on side tangents. I was being specific. I didn't ask you about your take on how many complaints were legit in your view or if people were wasting time doing key binding set ups.

You are not even paying attention to what I am actually saying.
You missed the part where I said people can't just change ISP or "upgrade" EVEN IF THEY CAN AFORD IT because not every one has options. some counties in rural states only have two cable companies and newer tech like fiber internet is non existent. So "just get better internet" is a moronic thing to say.

Tanoomba a écrit :

N0X a écrit :

I can easily see someone downloading and trouble shooting a game and then putting in around 45 minutes of actually playing the game and then deciding they just don't like it and then expect a refund despite the total run time clocked on steam displaying a number that just steps over the 120 mark.

You're mistaking "You can return a game within 2 hours for ANY reason; Even if you don't like it!" for "You have the right to see if you like a game before deciding to keep it".

You are only legally entitled to a refund if the game doesn't work. The fact that you are allowed to return a game if you don't like it is a bonus, a generosity on Valve's part. It is not an acknowledgement that you can buy games just to see if you like them.

I don't care about legality since this is not bout a black and white situation. Also lets stop nut hugging valve by describing the basic act of getting a refund after putting less than an hour of play after trouble shooting as generous. D2D and GOG does this simply by talking to a rep.
What I am describing is not that big of deal.

[Mad Scientist]

N0X a écrit :

I just said more than once now I'm not only referring to wait timers like lines. Stop shadow boxing.

Every scenario you've brought up has been debunked or has an exception, thus no issues with the time for refund nor the refund policy.

You're not getting more time for refunds, move on. No need to hijack the ops thread any further.

[RiO]

Tanoomba a écrit :

I think it helps to remember that even though Valve clearly says you can refund a game for ANY reason, the underlying purpose of the refund system is to cover Valve's butt in case a game has technical issues or won't run on your computer. You're legally entitled to a refund if the game won't run, but you're not legally entitled if you just don't like the game. 2 hours is more than enough time to see if it runs properly.

You're wrong.
The reason for the existence of the refund policy is the EU right of withdrawal, which allows a consumer a 14-day period to withdraw from any distance purchase without stated reason.

Digital distribution lobbied with the EU, pleading the case that it would ruin their business model. So what the EU did is they weakened the right of withdrawal by building in a waiver that digital distributors can use to have consumers waive the right of withdrawal.

But when they did so, the EU specifically mentioned to the industry lobby that the intent of the waiver was so that businesses could erect their own alternative to the right of withdrawal via business-specific refund processes with enough safeguards to not jeopardize their business model. The waiver was specifically not meant to outright deny consumers the legal rights they would otherwise have. The EU would be doing periodic reviews of the industry's use of the waiver; and if they found abuse - then they would amend the legislation to remove the waiver again. (The next periodic review date for that is coming up somewhere this or next year, actually. If I'm not mistaken.)

In response, a few of the big players like Valve actually did set up refund policies in spirit of the right of withdrawal. Main difference between Valve's policy and the real thing: they added a clause that the content may not have been used in excess of 2 hours. A non-arbitrary pick if you consider the average play-length of some indie games. (And even then, some indies like iirc Braid would still keep complaining over it.)

In short: the refund policy is meant for no-questions-asked refunds.

What you are referring to, is a refund for a defective product that does not perform in a way that conforms to contract. In the EU there is different legislation which applies to such products, also legislation covering digital content - not just physical products, and the limitations on liability for that work very differently. The short version of it is that for a business model of continuous supply, which Valve uses by offering on-demand installation from an online library and titles being forced to be kept eternally up-to-date, they remain indefinitely liable for defects.


The refund policy probably is convenient for US consumers though - who get to enjoy the benefits of it along with Europeans - as the US doesn't offer consumers anywhere near as strong protection in the face of defective digital content. It's basically: "you bought it; you're stuck with it," over there - as far as I've understood it.

[N0X]

Mad Scientist a écrit :

N0X a écrit :

I just said more than once now I'm not only referring to wait timers like lines. Stop shadow boxing.

Every scenario you've brought up has been debunked or has an exception, thus no issues with the time for refund nor the refund policy.

You're not getting more time for refunds, move on. No need to hijack the ops thread any further.

You don't even know what you are taking about. Stop responding to peoples post just to be argumentative, seriously.

[i know kung fu]

it's actually a lot more fair than any other online game store...