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Arjen 12 jul 2023 om 13:05
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Problems With The Tools Against Review Bombing
Recently, the developers of Skullgirls censored and removed some content from their game, which includes crowdfunded content. The audience responded to this anti-consumer update by negatively reviewing the game based on its changes in content, but now all those reviews have been marked as "irrelevant" and are no longer included.

I think it's vital for Steam to distinguish between an actual review bombing (ie, some developer posts an opinion on Twitter separate from the game, and irate fans try to hurt the dev by proxy) and a genuine audience response (thousands of negative reviews about an actual update that affects the actual content of the game).I don't think these reviews should be marked as irrelevant while hilarious positive reviews with comments like "boobs" or "i found this game through porn" are apparently relevant enough to keep up.

So my suggestion is, please allow discussion and argument about whether or not a flood of negative reviews is "irrelevant" or not before just throwing thousands of reviews in the bin. In this case, it's a justified response to an update that goes against the tone of the game and the wishes of people who crowdfunded this game to begin with.

I understand not everyone may agree with the fans, but the fact is that these are genuine frustrations from the actual audience, not a hate campaign of irrelevant comments. Valve, please acknowledge the difference.

(Changed the title from 'Abusing the Tools' to 'Problems with the Tools,' so as to not insinuate it was the developers censoring the criticism)
Laatst bewerkt door Arjen; 12 jul 2023 om 13:56
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Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
Origineel geplaatst door GhostBear:

That's another issue that I agree with. Valve thinks DRM and Anti-Cheats are not a factor to reviewing a game. It's Valves own words and it is absurd. I think Valve just doesn't want to upset developers and having them take business else where idk. There is definitely people who will and have quit a game if they add a intrusive anti-cheat that they don't trust or a awful DRM. It definitely fits in line with service and how you enjoy the game on your own system.

I am not sure if discussing this one fits this topic? It is on the topic of problems of review bombing tools but it's going against what Valve stated where as skullgirls and SuperHotVR didn't break any rules since it is about game content and there is no evidence of a campaign to attack developers.

As for the other bits you mentioned thats another problem. Valve doesn't care what else is going on during the time period. If Valve sees that people complain about Anti-Cheat which they think is not ok then any other complaint too is not legitimate since it caught the time frame. I can't really bring much more about your example because I am unfamiliar with Naraka.

The system needs to stick to campaigns.
I would be able to side with Valve that anti-cheat and such are off-topic if the game launches with those, and you're able to see if it impacts how well the game runs or if it launches at all for you. It's another issue when you may periodically play a game and suddenly an update makes it incompatible with your operating system or gives you a performance hit.
Great point. I'd also like to add that having a disclaimer that says "by purchasing this game you receive a censored version" right beside drm and eula disclaimers on the side would at least be something. Gog already does that for example.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
No. Even panty color has an effect on the game. Not only that, you yourself doing exactly what you accuse pizDuke of - "muddying the waters". Because in certain contexts effect of panty shots would be absolutely noticed by more than a "ridiculously tiny minority".
"Certain contexts"? What about THIS context? Again, you're just gaslighting here, pretending that the suggestion that these changes actually affected a significant number of people's experiences has any merit at all. Again, even the reviews themselves are not concerned with how the experience of playing the game has changed.
Origineel geplaatst door pizDuke:
"Adding salmon to the cake does not affect the experience of eating said cake" is literally what you argue, it even sounds logically impossible.
The presence of salmon was both confirmed by players and devs and you. But to cover that up you say "well it doesn't reaaly affect anything", after that you say "well it doesn't reaaly affect experience of playing the game", after that you say "well it doesn't reaaly affect experience of playing the game fundamentally", then you say "well it doesn't reaaly affect experience of playing the game fundamentally in everything that counts", then you say "well it doesn't reaaly affect experience of playing the game fundamentally in everything that counts for those who played the game more than x amount of hours", then you'd say "well it doesn't reaaly affect experience of playing the game fundamentally in everything that counts for those who played the game more than x amount of hours and are not principled (aka 'on the right side of history')".
And you'll keep shifting and shifting and shifting your goalpost until we reach some faith-based territory. And we already know your endgame it's right there.
Origineel geplaatst door pizDuke:
Of course Tanoomba, because you're virtuous, noble and objective. You just exclude people you don't like from "everyone"
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Anybody who calls it "wokeness" has already revealed their hand and should not be pandered to.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
It is now, because the game reflects those things.
No, that's wrong. Nobody can play the game and see those things on the game's own merits.
Aka "you're right but figuring it out is racist" argument.
Laatst bewerkt door pizDuke; 13 sep 2023 om 9:14
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Again, if the number of people negatively affected wasn't significant there wouldn't be a significant number of people writing negative reviews.
Again: Non sequitur. This is how outrage campaigns work. Their whole point is they blow things completely out of proportion. This is why most of the people complaining haven't played the game in years and never really cared about it to begin with. They're just using it as an excuse to fight their culture war.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
You are thinking of someone else's reviews.
More gaslighting.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Lore
2. The backstory created around a fictional universe.
The character's favorite clothes, including panty color, is a part of the backstory.
No, it objectively isn't. No part of the story ever made any reference to Filia's panty color. it never served a plot-related purpose, and since you can play with different color palettes the entire point is moot. You're REALLY reaching here.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Those things are reflected in the game.
No, they aren't. You can't actually see any of that in the game. You're still reaching.
Origineel geplaatst door CiccioCc:
All that, assuming wrongly there is a group of customers who is maliciously organized to do a collective reviewing activity.
What are you talking about? I never made such an assumption.

Origineel geplaatst door CiccioCc:
The real bomb was the unwanted update, and from then, negative rates increased.
What? This makes no sense. The review bomb wasn't "the update". The review bomb was the overblown and hyperbolic reaction to the update. You're asking why reviews after the filtered period aren't excluded; I'm telling you it's because they're not part of the review bomb. It's that simple.

Origineel geplaatst door CiccioCc:
Severely unfair when other users which state my same identical concerns on their reviews, are untouched and unfiltered..
Yeah, man. Life is unfair sometimes. It's unfair that none of my reviews for games I bought (legitimately) outside of Steam don't get counted. But it's not arbitrary, and this minor and ultimately non-consequential unfairness exists for a productive and valid reason. If there were a better alternative, I'm sure Valve would consider it, but 'allow review bombs to run rampant" is not a reasonable suggestion and will not happen. Sorry.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Again, if the number of people negatively affected wasn't significant there wouldn't be a significant number of people writing negative reviews.
Again: Non sequitur. This is how outrage campaigns work. Their whole point is they blow things completely out of proportion. This is why most of the people complaining haven't played the game in years and never really cared about it to begin with. They're just using it as an excuse to fight their culture war.
"Campaign: a connected series of operations designed to bring about a particular result"
So where's the outrage campaign? Where's the outside source?

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door CiccioCc:
The real bomb was the unwanted update, and from then, negative rates increased.
What? This makes no sense. The review bomb wasn't "the update". The review bomb was the overblown and hyperbolic reaction to the update. You're asking why reviews after the filtered period aren't excluded; I'm telling you it's because they're not part of the review bomb. It's that simple.
Dude, he said "the bomb". And the reaction to the update was not "overblown and hyperbolic", it was natural as no outside force blew things out of proportion.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Those things are reflected in the game.
No, they aren't. You can't actually see any of that in the game. You're still reaching.
Origineel geplaatst door pizDuke:
Aka "you're right but figuring it out is racist" argument.
Laatst bewerkt door pizDuke; 13 sep 2023 om 13:21
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Again, if the number of people negatively affected wasn't significant there wouldn't be a significant number of people writing negative reviews.
Again: Non sequitur. This is how outrage campaigns work.
No, that's not how outrage "campaigns" work. People are outraged because they have a reason to be outraged. In this case developers changing the game.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Their whole point is they blow things completely out of proportion. This is why most of the people complaining haven't played the game in years and never really cared about it to begin with. They're just using it as an excuse to fight their culture war.
It's developers, who fight their culture war, not the players. And players are outraged because content they have emotional attachment to was removed for the sake of "fighting the hate groups" and stuff.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
You are thinking of someone else's reviews.
More gaslighting.
Ah, so you adimt that your "someone else" was gaslighting! Good.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Lore
2. The backstory created around a fictional universe.
The character's favorite clothes, including panty color, is a part of the backstory.
No, it objectively isn't. No part of the story ever made any reference to Filia's panty color.
Her appearance in the game IS a part of the story.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
it never served a plot-related purpose
Plot and lore are two parts of the game's story. That's one of the basics of narrative design. How a character is dressed, how a character talks, even how a character moves while loading a gun - all that is a part of the story.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Those things are reflected in the game.
No, they aren't.
That's literally the reason that was given for the changes. Are you saying that devs were lying?
Origineel geplaatst door pizDuke:
Great point. I'd also like to add that having a disclaimer that says "by purchasing this game you receive a censored version" right beside drm and eula disclaimers on the side would at least be something. Gog already does that for example.
This really should be a thing. Especially since Steam has adult games that vary greatly in censorship.
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
People are outraged because they have a reason to be outraged.
Indeed they do. Because they're offended by innocuous changes and want to fight a culture war.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
It's developers, who fight their culture war, not the players.
The devs just updated their game in a way that has no effect on the experience of playing it. It's the entitled mob that decided to make a war out of it.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
And players are outraged because content they have emotional attachment to was removed for the sake of "fighting the hate groups" and stuff.
You're gaslighting again. Nobody had emotional attachment to that content in particular, certainly not thousands of people. And, again, the reviews themselves don't demonstrate any emotional attachment to anything but being outraged.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Her appearance in the game IS a part of the story.
No, that's a nonsensical claim. Sorry. Why have multiple palettes, then?

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
That's literally the reason that was given for the changes. Are you saying that devs were lying?
No, that's a straw man. I'm saying the devs' reasons do not manifest in any tangible way in the game. Their reasoning exists completely separately and outside of the experience of playing the game. Any problems you have with their reasoning is an objection on principle, not a reaction to the game becoming less fun.
Laatst bewerkt door Tanoomba; 13 sep 2023 om 16:46
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
People are outraged because they have a reason to be outraged.
Indeed they do. Because they're offended by innocuous changes and want to fight a culture war.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
It's developers, who fight their culture war, not the players.
The devs just updated their game in a way that has no effect on the experience of playing it. It's the entitled mob that decided to make a war out of it.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
And players are outraged because content they have emotional attachment to was removed for the sake of "fighting the hate groups" and stuff.
You're gaslighting again. Nobody had emotional attachment to that content in particular, certainly not thousands of people. And, again, the reviews themselves don't demonstrate any emotional attachment to anything but being outraged.

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Her appearance in the game IS a part of the story.
No, that's a nonsensical claim. Sorry. Why have multiple palettes, then?

Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
That's literally the reason that was given for the changes. Are you saying that devs were lying?
No, that's a straw man. I'm saying the devs' reasons do not manifest in any tangible way in the game. Their reasoning exists completely separately and outside of the experience of playing the game. Any problems you have with their reasoning is an objection on principle, not a reaction to the game becoming less fun.
"Gaslighting", "straw man".

You are really trying to assert that other people's feelings and opinions don't matter while trying to claim that other people's arguments are not legitimate. People cared about that change, and that is all there is to it. If the game launched today, as is, and no one knew the original art plans, then sure. People would still view Skullgirls as a "coomer game" with tight fighting mechanics. People would probably even complain that it objectifies women. Yet, now it's censored. People are upset that things were changed, and people are defending the changes as being "less gross". There comes a point where you have to acknowledge that the current state and reception is impacted by how things were previously.

You are free to enjoy the games you enjoy, but you are not the authority on how other people get to enjoy or value the things they purchase.
I agree with you, often useless reviews outweigh useful reviews. I've seen countless times reviews like an emoji, a "yes", a funny phrase, a drawing, in front of guys who spent at least 30 minutes writing something relevant and that adds to the understanding of what the game is, the positive and negative points , and experience.
Of course, everyone has the free will to write what they want, and they should, but the system should be adjusted to address more people who actually leave a review than those who just write something silly and get 200 likes and are included in the "useful" tab, while one guy actually wrote something and got 5 likes and little relevance.
Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
You are really trying to assert that other people's feelings and opinions don't matter
No, I'm saying they're illogical and basically excuses for poor behavior.

Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
People cared about that change
They did, but not about how it affected the game (which they don't care about). They cared about the change insofar as it gave them another battle to fight in their silly culture war.

Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
People are upset that things were changed
... but not what was changed or how it affected the game. They are offended on principle, which is fine, but it's certainly not useful to someone who wants to know if the game is fun (it is).

Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
You are free to enjoy the games you enjoy, but you are not the authority on how other people get to enjoy or value the things they purchase.
I have never claimed to be. I'm basing my conclusions on what the angry mob has said, int heir own words.
Origineel geplaatst door desert:
I agree with you, often useless reviews outweigh useful reviews. I've seen countless times reviews like an emoji, a "yes", a funny phrase, a drawing, in front of guys who spent at least 30 minutes writing something relevant and that adds to the understanding of what the game is, the positive and negative points , and experience.
Of course, everyone has the free will to write what they want, and they should, but the system should be adjusted to address more people who actually leave a review than those who just write something silly and get 200 likes and are included in the "useful" tab, while one guy actually wrote something and got 5 likes and little relevance.
There are at least a couple of reasons why filtering out all "useless" reviews is not feasible:
- It is technically and practically impossible to evaluate each and every review written for "usefulness". Not only is it much more subjective to judge individual cases than it is overall trends, it's also less productive since individual reviews don't have a big effect on the aggregate.
- Lots of people simply can't express themselves well in writing so they make short or jokey reviews. They're still generally representative of whatever the reviewer thinks of the game on its own merits, so they serve a purpose and should be counted with the aggregate.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
You are really trying to assert that other people's feelings and opinions don't matter
No, I'm saying they're illogical and basically excuses for poor behavior.

Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
People cared about that change
They did, but not about how it affected the game (which they don't care about). They cared about the change insofar as it gave them another battle to fight in their silly culture war.

Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
People are upset that things were changed
... but not what was changed or how it affected the game. They are offended on principle, which is fine, but it's certainly not useful to someone who wants to know if the game is fun (it is).

Origineel geplaatst door Pyro3000:
You are free to enjoy the games you enjoy, but you are not the authority on how other people get to enjoy or value the things they purchase.
I have never claimed to be. I'm basing my conclusions on what the angry mob has said, int heir own words.
You have confirmed every single accusation I threw your way. At the end of the day, you feel like you have the moral high ground. Which is ironic coming from someone with an avatar of a near naked woman, on this subject. You feel the way you do because it is how you morally feel, and you say yourself that those that disagree with you are just illogical and poor behaving. Meanwhile, you ignore everything I say about Naraka and their off-topic periods. I'd be willing to bet that if Harry Potter had gotten an off-topic review period for JK Rowling being anti-trans, you would feel that those reviews were justified and should count, despite having nothing to do with the game and being ideology focused.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
People are outraged because they have a reason to be outraged.
Indeed they do. Because they're offended by innocuous changes and want to fight a culture war.
Okay, now you REALLY think about developers, not players. With the caveat that they are offended by original content, obviously not changed one.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
It's developers, who fight their culture war, not the players.
The devs just updated their game in a way that has no effect on the experience of playing it.
Non sequitur. If changes had no effect on the experience, they wouldn't be worth the work. They definitely wouldn't reflect the devs' values.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
And players are outraged because content they have emotional attachment to was removed for the sake of "fighting the hate groups" and stuff.
You're gaslighting again. Nobody had emotional attachment to that content in particular, certainly not thousands of people.
Again, you are just making an accusation without any proof or evidence.
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
And, again, the reviews themselves don't demonstrate any emotional attachment to anything but being outraged.
The phrase "ruined my girl" literally demonstrates emotional attachment to the character.

Your comment about the YouTube video that accused devs of calling fans creeps, on the other hand, demonstrated that you haven't watched the video, so your claim that it's clickbait was made on principle, not based on any evidence. Just like your claim about reviews.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
Her appearance in the game IS a part of the story.
No, that's a nonsensical claim. Sorry. Why have multiple palettes, then?
Those pallets are additional. Just like additional costumes for the characters in other games. Are you going to claim that Ashley in RE4 Remake canonically is dressed in medieval armor and not in an orange sweater and green plaid skirt?

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Origineel geplaatst door Loot Hunter:
That's literally the reason that was given for the changes. Are you saying that the devs were lying?
No, that's a straw man. I'm saying the devs' reasons do not manifest in any tangible way in the game. Their reasoning exists completely separately and outside of the experience of playing the game.
It doesn't exist separately because it's the reason for no armbands and black panties. Again, you can't say that something is both reflected in the game and isn't affecting the game at all. I mean, you can but that would be doublethink nonsense.

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Any problems you have with their reasoning is an objection on principle, not a reaction to the game becoming less fun.
You are just projecting. You are the one, who defends devs on principle and not making arguments in good faith.
Laatst bewerkt door Loot Hunter; 13 sep 2023 om 21:49
Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
What? This makes no sense
I know what you are trying to do, but you get yours:

Bomb is used as a methaphore (in both definitions here):
Bomb: a bomb that is set to explode at a particular moment

It's a metaphore. The actions are taken by the devs, in the first place. They have set "the bomb".
Reviews are reactions, and they are individually expressed, not in group. If they sum up, it's because the bomb affected many. You see them in the whole as a bomb because they are many. There is not such a thing. "Review bombing" is when some organize to use syncroniously the power of many, to make them use this power of reviewing collectively against something.

And again, as the "review bomb" metaphor is used wrong: When in the reality bomb explosions happens, in the hospitals does not arrives "a bomb of victims" just because they are many.
Reactions outcomes are not called "bombs". Many victims arrive, because a bomb explodes.

I reviewed superothotvr via my free will, no one organized that group of reviews alltogether in the same time

Origineel geplaatst door Tanoomba:
Yeah, man. Life is unfair sometimes. It's unfair that none of my reviews for games I bought (legitimately) outside of Steam don't get counted
False equivalence, you know what happen and how your review is treated before both acts.
You know that during the purchase, and during the reviewing process. The metric is CLEAR.

On the contrary, the filtering of a period of a review, because Valve wrongly decides is irrelevant, happen after the user does it, and without metric on the individual action. Only because it's inside a timespan, alltogether with many other reviews stating a disappointment. Since they are too many unconvenient for publishers to mantaining sales, Valve filters them.
Laatst bewerkt door CiccioCc; 14 sep 2023 om 0:07
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