Possible method of validating achievements.

[Jasspur]

It's come to my attention that several websites use a steam sign in to display valid Steam achievements. Some exmaples are Astats and TrueSteamAchievements. With the past issues experience by third parties like "Steam Achievement Manager (SAM for short), it makes this particular feature feel like less of an achievement. I would like to suggest working with the people behind these websites to potentially validate all achievements on steam. It won't curb in game hacking to get achievements, but it will slow down a massive achievement dump that hurts those of us who like prove our reward; especially if we are trusted to write guides. I am at your disposal for any needs or questions to improve Steam, SteamOS, the SteamDeck and all things related. I hope I can be of assistance.

[Start_Running]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

And the system is intended to be used in whatever way is 'fun' to the user. That seems to be how the devs see it.

Not when it's a social and competitive system.

Anything can be imagined into a social and competitive system
That doesn't make it one.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

At the end iof the day. if dev/pubs intended their achievements to be a competition. They'd implement them as such.

Again: Non sequitur.

Oerfectly Valid point. It's not as you claim, difficult to do. It's really just a matter of where the data is fired of to. Be it a another process, another subroutine, or across the network to another server. It's just that dev/pubs by all evidence do not care. because the achievements are there for the fun of doing them

If your enjoyment comes from believing the achioevement lets you in to some sort of "Super Special L33ts 0nly Club" then that's fine for you to believe, and like allbeliefs rooted in the unevidenced and unreal..its gonna eventually get crushed by reality.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

You misunderstand. I'm not interested in suggestions on how to enjoy my video games.

No you seem to be more on telling others how to enjoy their games by saying they should only do things in their games and with their games that you approve of. Like getting achievments in the way you deem fitting.

As said. What people do in their D&D campaign at a table you're not playing at, shouldn't affect how you enjoy the D&D game at the table you are playing at. So what if your team had a 10 round battle with the Beholder Lich and his minions that required careful preparation and minmaxing wghuile at another table they defeated the Same Beholder Lich in 2 riounds because the DM's hoimebrew said the conflict would be resolved via Dance off and als the beholder, having no legs, automatically lost.

You have your fun, they have their fun. If you having your fun requires someone else to limit how they have their fun in a single player game...then your problem is your own. Maybe do something that you can enjoy and have fun with regardless of how an unrelated person chooses to enjoy it.

If me beating Skyrim with the Saitama Mod doesn't diminish the enjoyment you get from beating skyrim, then someone unlocking the the achievments via SAM shouldn't. Especially when you consider that some achievments may literally be impossible due to a fubared game patch by the developers.

If the developers really wanted their achievements to be competitive you'd see competitive achievments actually in the game. "Beat the fgame within 3 days of release". Or "FIrst one to Beat the Game".. Or First to Clear level X. And the devs would also take the minimaleffort require d tos ecyure the achievments. Like some already do.

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Anything can be imagined into a social and competitive system
That doesn't make it one.

Agreed. the fact that Steam includes social and competitive features as part of its achievement system is what makes it social and competitive.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

It's just that dev/pubs by all evidence do not care. because the achievements are there for the fun of doing them

Even if that were true and the devs don't care, it's Steam's features that foster competition, not the devs.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

If your enjoyment comes from believing the achioevement lets you in to some sort of "Super Special L33ts 0nly Club" then that's fine for you to believe, and like allbeliefs rooted in the unevidenced and unreal..its gonna eventually get crushed by reality.

I wish you'd stick to making relevant points instead of these constant insults. Mocking someone for how they enjoy games is not a good look.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

No you seem to be more on telling others how to enjoy their games by saying they should only do things in their games and with their games that you approve of.

Straw man. I've never done any such thing.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

As said. What people do in their D&D campaign at a table you're not playing at, shouldn't affect how you enjoy the D&D game at the table you are playing at.

It doesn't. But people cheating a social and competitive system with globally tracked statistics does. You're making a false equivalence.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

You have your fun, they have their fun. If you having your fun requires someone else to limit how they have their fun in a single player game...then your problem is your own.

But see, it's you having your fun that limits how much others can have fun. You're saying "my ability to cheat is more important than your ability to enjoy a system as it was designed to be enjoyed." Trying to portray me as the demanding and unreasonable party here is more than a little hypocritical.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Maybe do something that you can enjoy and have fun with regardless of how an unrelated person chooses to enjoy it.

I am, but I'd enjoy it more if the system was working as intended and I was actually getting the rewards I earned.

[Komarimaru]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

Comparing achievements with friends, is social yes. A showcase is not, since no one is going to check every profile of every person playing that game to see if they have the same achievements.

That is not a requirement for it to be considered a social feature.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

Rarest achievements mean nothing.

Then why have the option? They mean nothing to YOU, which is fine, but the fact that Steam includes it as a feature makes it social and competitive.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

And you want to enjoy achievements the way they were designed to? Then leave PC. They were created by Microsoft to help sell Xbox Gold, now called Xbox live.

Non sequitur. I want to use Steam's system the way Steam's system was designed and intended to be used.

Steam doesn't care about achievements and never will. Developers control them, and they have a method to make them secure, but alas... they don't care so don't for 99.999917% of them on Steam.

And they are rare, since people don't have them, that's it. Doesn't mean it takes any skill to get them. The majority of them are simple or boring tasks, like, why bother?

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

Steam doesn't care about achievements and never will.

The fact that they developed and implemented social and competitive features proves otherwise.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

The majority of them are simple or boring tasks, like, why bother?

You don't have to. Heck, if you care so little, then why cheat the achievements? You're insisting on everyone's blessing for cheating on the grounds that it doesn't matter and nobody cares, but that's obviously not the case if it's that important to you that nobody disapprove of you cheating the system.

[Komarimaru]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

Steam doesn't care about achievements and never will.

The fact that they developed and implemented social and competitive features proves otherwise.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

The majority of them are simple or boring tasks, like, why bother?

You don't have to. Heck, if you care so little, then why cheat the achievements? You're insisting on everyone's blessing for cheating on the grounds that it doesn't matter and nobody cares, but that's obviously not the case if it's that important to you that nobody disapprove of you cheating the system.

There is nothing social or competitive about them. Showing global stats is not competitive. It's just showing, ya... this many got this far into the game, or this person did this boring task that most didn't want to waste time on. That's literally all the top achievements, no skill required.

And I'm not insisting on cheating, I'm saying it doesn't matter, since there's 2? 2 protected achievement programs that exist on Steam. 2... I own one of them, 3DMark. And the only reason it's protected? Due to their leaderboards, they host.

[BJWyler]

Just when I thought I was out ...

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

And yet, I'm sure they would all disagree that those statements apply to, say, a multiplayer game. I think it's a little disingenuous to assume they'd be cool with people cheating a social and competitive achievement system.

Again, that's an apples to oranges comparison. Honestly, in my conversations, achievements weren't discussed in and of themselves. However, when they did come into the conversation, it was always as the means to create player interest and engagement, as well as a way to gain data on how the players interacted with the game and its various systems (Their inherent qualities). Not a single one saw it as a social or competitive feature for their games, unless the game itself was a competitive multiplayer game. And even then, it was only because of the nature of the game itself, not because of the achievements.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

This argument would make sense if I had ever suggested getting rid of SAM (I haven't).

Maybe not, but several others have, repeatedly, which is why we are here. You have expressed a desire to have a level playing field and accurate stats. Tell me how that is to be accomplished without eliminating the ways I listed to cheat achievements.

Just to note here, people lie and manipulate surveys and statistics all the time. It's human nature. Heck I have known people who have lied on the US National Census, which creates a significantly bigger problem than people cheating achievements that affect global stats. No survey and/or statistical chart is ever 100% accurate. People learn to live with that fact, and take their information with a grain of salt.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

None of that has any effect on other players.

Modding and Rocket Jumping certainly do. Ninja Tanking most certainly did, as the devs saw what was happening and designed more content around it in the game. Obviously this was not a comprehensive list, just a few I recall from the top of my head. Griefing is another result of emergent gameplay and also has an effect on other players. Metabuilds in MMOs is yet another.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

And they have no control over what people do with 3rd person software that completely undermines their intentions.

They most certainly do within reason. Obviously, again, the PC being an open platform does make the prospect more tricky, with some things, but closed systems like Consoles certainly show it can be done. Again, it can also be done on open systems like the PC.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Non sequitur. It is not always economically or practically feasible for a dev to host servers whose only purpose is to verify achievement integrity. I don't believe "They could theoretically do more to prevent cheaters, so that means they're OK with cheaters" is a valid argument.

You keep using that term, but I don't think it means what you think it means. Certainly it is not always feasible to implement certain features in a game to control how players interact with systems, but it can, and has been done many times over in countless games. There is nothing theoretical about it. They have bonafide ways of controlling such things, and simply choose not to. Heck, even multiplayer games with achievements do not protect their achievements, and they are the ones with the systems already in place to do so. So you have to ask yourself why only a very, very small fraction of developers have opted to protect achievements. For the rest it's either because they don't share your same view on the system being social and competitve, and/or they don't see the cheating as a big enough issue to worry about.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

No, it's not the same. Steam's achievement system is inherently social and competitive, by design. You're allowed to ignore that aspect, but it is undeniably present. Cheaters have an effect on non-cheaters. It's really that simple.

It is the same. Steam's social system exists and operates independently of the achievement system. It can operate with or without them included. The achievement system can operate normally whether they are included in the social system or not. Cheaters have an effect only on a small fraction of the users of said system that allow themselves to feel affected by it. By and large, I've never seen any indication that the majority of Steam users feel troubled or affected by them at all. I know I never felt affected by people cheating achievements.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Of course it changes the inherent qualities of the system. It changes player motivation. It changes how one derives satisfaction from achievements. It changes how one shows off one's accomplishments to others.

Of course it doesn't change the inherent qualities of the system. You yourself say it right here - what changes are the motivations of a small handful of players, and how they interact with the system but does not change the inherent qualities of the system itself. Bioware publishing global stats of what races players played as and what quests they completed doesn't magically turn the game into an MMO. It still remains an inherently single-player experience.

An inherent quality is one that exists regardless of how one interacts with a system normally. People completing achievements because they are motivated to be included in an exclusive club still pad game play game play time and increase their engagement with the game. You, yourself said that we can ignore the social and competitive elements of Steam's system if we so choose. That very fact means that the social and competitive elements are not an inherent quality of the Achievement System.

We can remove the global stats from the system, and it would still function normally. You can not remove the qualities of padding play time and increasing player engagement by interacting with the system normally and still have the system function.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Again, you don't have to care about any of that. But you're flat-out mistaken if you think Steam's achievement system isn't inherently social and competitive.

I am not mistaken. You just refuse to accept the facts presented by myself and many others. Valve has created a system that can be used in a social and competitive way, but as I already said, that operates independently of whatever other systems they care to include in it, and does not to change the inherent qualities of those systems. Just like an MMO with only one player left still remains an inherently social game, likewise, a million people comparing achievements with one another does not change the fact that Achievements are an inherent personal challenge designed to increase player engagement with a game.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

That's not what I said at all. In fact, I said the exact opposite: that removing the global stats would have a direct effect on player motivation.

Not in those exact words, but you kinda did:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Let me put it another way: If the achievements didn't include global statistics and we had no way of knowing how many people got any achievement, then the more difficult achievements would be significantly more ignored than they are now. It's knowing that one can be part of a fairly exclusive group of people who were able and willing to pull off arbitrarily difficult challenges that provides the motivation for people to even try.

I agree that removing the global stats would have a direct effect on a small percentage of players who are motivated by such things, but that is all that would be affected. The harder achievements would certainly not be significantly more ignored than they are now. Without global stats, achievements would still exist, most people interested in them would still complete them as personal challenges (or whatever their motivation is), and the system would function completely normally as it was inherently designed to do - increase play time and player engagement with the game.

The simple proof is that achievements exist and are widely obtained outside of Steam's system, many of which do not include such social features and stats. Obviously we don't have official stats on player motivation, but from an anecdotal standpoint of being a gamer for over 40 years, and my knowledge from within the industry, the number of people who need global stats as a motivation factor is significantly smaller than those who do not, and simply enjoy challenges for the sake of personal accomplishment they get when beating them.

[Start_Running]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Anything can be imagined into a social and competitive system
That doesn't make it one.

Agreed. the fact that Steam includes social and competitive features as part of its achievement system is what makes it social and competitive.

Re read what i said. You imagine such things to be social and competitive. I imagine it to be about as social or competitive as the hardware survey stats.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

It's just that dev/pubs by all evidence do not care. because the achievements are there for the fun of doing them

Even if that were true and the devs don't care, it's Steam's features that foster competition, not the devs.

No. That's what yoyu're imagining. Again it's just a data point. Not unlike the hardware survey. You imagining as such does not make it so.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

As said. What people do in their D&D campaign at a table you're not playing at, shouldn't affect how you enjoy the D&D game at the table you are playing at.

It doesn't. But people cheating a social and competitive system with globally tracked statistics does. You're making a false equivalence.

Agreed. Sadly the achievment system as it is implemented is not competitive. It can be uised in a competitive manner byy those of a particular mindset ascribing to a partiocular set of rules among themselves. But it is not inherently so.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

You have your fun, they have their fun. If you having your fun requires someone else to limit how they have their fun in a single player game...then your problem is your own.

But see, it's you having your fun that limits how much others can have fun.

And that's their problem. Not mine. They can choose to ignore me and just focus on enjoying getting their achievments however they want.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Maybe do something that you can enjoy and have fun with regardless of how an unrelated person chooses to enjoy it.

I am, but I'd enjoy it more if the system was working as intended and I was actually getting the rewards I earned.

The system was clearly never intended to be used as you imagine it. Not by the devs or Valve. and that much is evident through casual observation. Again... we have seen what it looks like when a dev actually intends to make a competition out of achievments.

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

There is nothing social or competitive about them.

I strongly disagree. As far as I'm concerned, those features only exist for social and competitive purposes.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

And I'm not insisting on cheating, I'm saying it doesn't matter

It doesn't matter to YOU, and that's valid. But you don't get to say that the people who it does matter to are wrong.

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

Again, that's an apples to oranges comparison.

I don't think it is, and since these devs of yours don't actually mention cheating achievements it comes down to personal interpretation and assumptions.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

However, when they did come into the conversation, it was always as the means to create player interest and engagement, as well as a way to gain data on how the players interacted with the game and its various systems (Their inherent qualities).

You've brought this up repeatedly, and I've never disagreed with it. Yes, YES, achievements were created to increase player engagement. Using 3rd party software to cheat achievements is the exact opposite of "player engagement". It's literally "player detachment". You think that cheating achievements fits in with the principles behind achievements and I believe they are diametrically opposed.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

Not a single one saw it as a social or competitive feature for their games

Again, it's not the achievements themselves that are social or competitive. It's Steam's implementation of social and competitive features such as global statistics, personal showcases and comparison among friends. The system itself is inherently social and competitive, because it is built around comparing oneself to others and showing off what one has accomplished.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

Maybe not, but several others have

Then take it up with them. These posts are long enough without me having to defend points I haven't made.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

You have expressed a desire to have a level playing field and accurate stats. Tell me how that is to be accomplished without eliminating the ways I listed to cheat achievements.

Currently, it's not possible. As I made clear from the beginning, I don't even think there is a solution. I just don't like being portrayed as irrational and unreasonable for wanting to enjoy a system as was designed and intended. I don't like being gaslit and condescended to because I value having my accomplishments properly measured and represented. I don't appreciate being labeled as trying to force other people to compromise when it's their choices that have given me no choice but to compromise.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

Obviously, again, the PC being an open platform does make the prospect more tricky, with some things

You don't say? It's almost like that's directly relevant.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

There is nothing theoretical about it. They have bonafide ways of controlling such things, and simply choose not to.

But that choice is not necessarily the result of "not caring". It can just as easily be "not enough funds and/or resources and/or knowhow". That's why it's disingenuous to say "if they didn't stop me from cheating, then they're OK with cheating".

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

For the rest it's either because they don't share your same view on the system being social and competitve, and/or they don't see the cheating as a big enough issue to worry about.

Funny how in an industry where every game's development is a compromise, where there are countless ideas and aspirations that are cut due to the realities of working with finite amounts of time and resources, that you decided to exclude "it would be a luxury they can't afford to protect achievements".

Also, as I've already said, the social and competitive aspects of Steam's achievements system are developed and maintained by Valve. It's not the devs that made achievements social and competitive, so there's even less reason for them to go out of their way to protect them.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

Cheaters have an effect only on a small fraction of the users of said system that allow themselves to feel affected by it.

It's not "allowing themselves". It affects them. A 1% achievement is more satisfying than a 2% achievement. Significantly so, even. That's not a unique and radical take on the system, that's how the system is designed. So when cheaters artificially inflate a number that's meant to show how many players actually accomplished a certain task, then the enjoyment those players have earned is compromised.

Again (again), you don't have to care. I'm not asking you to change your habits. I'm not even asking you to give a ♥♥♥♥ about how I'm enjoying my games. All I'm asking is that you stop trying to portray me as unreasonable for trying to enjoy a system as it was designed to be enjoyed.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

You yourself say it right here - what changes are the motivations of a small handful of players

That's what the system is. The whole purpose of the system is to affect player motivation. An individual, local-only, untracked achievement has a different value than an achievement that is recorded and compared to everyone else's. The collection and sharing of player data has been gamified so that collecting and comparing achievements is its own game. You don't have to play if you don't want, you don't even have to care, but it's there for that purpose.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

An inherent quality is one that exists regardless of how one interacts with a system normally.

No, an inherent quality is one that exists regardless of whether it's perceived or acknowledged.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

We can remove the global stats from the system, and it would still function normally.

"Normally"? What does that mean? It certainly wouldn't function the same. Player motivations would differ greatly. Personal satisfaction from achievement acquirement would change dramatically. They would "function" in the sense that the game will recognize when you get an achievement, but there would no longer be any social or competitive aspect, making it a completely different system. A "normal" system, sure, but not the system we have.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

I agree that removing the global stats would have a direct effect on a small percentage of players who are motivated by such things, but that is all that would be affected.

And I agree that removing people's ability to use 3rd party software to cheat achievements (if it were possible) would have a direct effect on a small percentage of players who are motivated by such things, but that is all that would be affected.
It's nice to agree, isn't it?

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

The harder achievements would certainly not be significantly more ignored than they are now.

Of course they would. it's absurd to suggest otherwise. Providing people with a number that shows how rare an achievement is along with giving them the chance to get bragging rights has a significant effect on motivation.

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

Without global stats, achievements would still exist, most people interested in them would still complete them as personal challenges (or whatever their motivation is)

But "whatever their motivation is" is greatly affected by Steam's social and competitive features.

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Re read what i said. You imagine such things to be social and competitive. I imagine it to be about as social or competitive as the hardware survey stats.

I understood you. I just think the suggestion that Steam provided these stats so people can say "look, these sure are stats" is disingenuous and silly.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Again it's just a data point.

Let's be clear: You're suggesting with a straight face that Steam is measuring and communicating global achievement stats as an arbitrary data point, presented for the sake of data, exclusively for people interested in data (as a hobby, I suppose).
I'm suggesting that measuring people's accomplishments and allowing them to compare themselves to others fosters the competitive spirit gamers are famous for, and you're saying that's all in my head. Just to be clear.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

It can be uised in a competitive manner byy those of a particular mindset ascribing to a partiocular set of rules among themselves.

... By design, because that's the point.
Your whole argument is "Teen sex comedies tend to feature nudity, sure, but you're just imagining that it's there to titillate and excite viewers. It's actually just body parts."

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

And that's their problem. Not mine.

Great! Own it! You want to enjoy your game how you want and you don't care if it has an effect on anyone else! I respect that honesty a lot more than the gaslighting and illogical arguments.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

The system was clearly never intended to be used as you imagine it.

Dude. you're discussing using third party software to cheat. That's very obviously not using the system as intended. It's mind-boggling that you keep trying to present me as the unreasonable one here.

[Start_Running]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Re read what i said. You imagine such things to be social and competitive. I imagine it to be about as social or competitive as the hardware survey stats.

I understood you. I just think the suggestion that Steam provided these stats so people can say "look, these sure are stats" is disingenuous and silly.

Well They do that with the Hardware survey results don't they. Data that is literally pointl;ess to any steam user. Look what they also did with Replay. Sometimes Valve just doesthings for the neat factor.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

I'm suggesting that measuring people's accomplishments and allowing them to compare themselves to others fosters the competitive spirit gamers are famous for, and you're saying that's all in my head. Just to be clear.

It's only a competition if the other person reciprocates.
You can believe you;re in an eating race with other people at the dinner table, but that doesn't mean they're in a race with you. MOstr will just look at you funny. And its okay when there are groubs of people who do that,. It's fine and among such groups rules of engagement will be created and held to. But people who aren't part of your competition aren't bound by whatever rules yyou made up.

You're racing. I'm just on my way to the store for groceries

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

It can be uised in a competitive manner byy those of a particular mindset ascribing to a partiocular set of rules among themselves.

... By design, because that's the point.

I've already shown that there can be other points. Maybe points that don't sound good to or interest you but again. that's you. And this kinda shows what i'm getting at,. You're insisting that the achievments are inherently competitive. They aren't.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Your whole argument is "Teen sex comedies tend to feature nudity, sure, but you're just imagining that it's there to titillate and excite viewers. It's actually just body parts."

Well if it is of the sex-comedy genre I wouldn't think that. But if it was just of the 'comedy' genre. Then the argument could be made,.. nudity and its effects, purpose, and meaning is contextual in story telling.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

The system was clearly never intended to be used as you imagine it.

Dude. you're discussing using third party software to cheat. That's very obviously not using the system as intended. It's mind-boggling that you keep trying to present me as the unreasonable one here.

The devs of any game could easily shut down SAM and block it if they wanted to right now. If they actually wanted their achievments to be used that way. Most don't because they really don't care. SO long as the user hasn fun in achieving it. It;s all gravy to them

[BJWyler]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

I don't think it is, and since these devs of yours don't actually mention cheating achievements it comes down to personal interpretation and assumptions.

It is when you are talking about a Multiplayer game with specific designs, and rules, in place for competition and a personal challenge achievement system. I even had one of them create a cheat code specifically for me in his game because I was having difficulty with some platforming on the system I was using at the time. So ... as the quote from the game designer (of a game designed as a co-op multiplayer game) indicates, it's the engagement of playing the game that matters to them, not whether someone cheats themselves out of a personal challenge.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

You've brought this up repeatedly, and I've never disagreed with it. Yes, YES, achievements were created to increase player engagement. Using 3rd party software to cheat achievements is the exact opposite of "player engagement". It's literally "player detachment". You think that cheating achievements fits in with the principles behind achievements and I believe they are diametrically opposed.

Not at all. I've never said that cheating fits in with the inherent principles behind them. Of course cheating them, with some methods, such as SAM is indeed antithesis to their purpose of padding game play time and engagement. It's just that, to me, if someone wants to cheat themselves out of a personal challenge, that's their choice. But what I will defend is the ability to be able to create our own unique experiences with games by doing whatever we can to change and modify them, using many of the things that have come about from emergent gameplay and the openness of the PC system that allows us to dig into game files and such. It's just that as a result, these methods also allow for cheating. To me, it's more important to maintain the ability to create our own experiences than to eliminate those ways to prevent someone from cheating in single-player games, and by association, achievements that are tied to them.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Again, it's not the achievements themselves that are social or competitive.

Which is what I have been saying ad infinitum. Thank you for finally acknowledging that.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

It's Steam's implementation of social and competitive features such as global statistics, personal showcases and comparison among friends. The system itself is inherently social and competitive, because it is built around comparing oneself to others and showing off what one has accomplished.

Which is what I said. Valve implemented a social system on the Steam platform to encourage interaction among it's users. It's a completely voluntary system that incorporates other systems (such as profile customization, a user to user trading system, and an Achievement system) as part of the whole. It's the Social system that creates the social part, not the achievement system itself, which again is totally optional, with the exception of the global stats which is the one thing that there is no obvious opt out option. It could be that someone with a completely private profile actually doesn't have their stats included in the globals. Regardless, it is my opinion that users should have the option of not having their achievement stats be included in the global stats if that is their desire.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Then take it up with them. These posts are long enough without me having to defend points I haven't made.

Which is what I have been doing every time a thread or suggestion like this comes up. I am only responding to the points you make because you chose to include yourself in the conversation, and I have a differing opinion on how Achievement Systems operate. Hence why we are still discussing this.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Currently, it's not possible. As I made clear from the beginning, I don't even think there is a solution. I just don't like being portrayed as irrational and unreasonable for wanting to enjoy a system as was designed and intended. I don't like being gaslit and condescended to because I value having my accomplishments properly measured and represented. I don't appreciate being labeled as trying to force other people to compromise when it's their choices that have given me no choice but to compromise.

I don't believe you are irrational or unreasonable, and hope I haven't given that impression, especially considering our conversation in the previous thread a couple of weeks ago. Perhaps you are just being caught in the crossfire as we debate with people who are attempting to force change that eliminates ways to cheat achievements, and thus, is antithesis to what makes the PC platform and open and emergent friendly platform.

At the end of the day, no stat is going to be 100% accurate. It's just not possible. So at some point, as much as we may hate this phrase, people do just have to learn to get over it. That's life at the end of the day. If close enough isn't good enough for someone for something that is relatively minor comparatively speaking in the industry, then there isn't a whole lot else that can be done to help them.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

But that choice is not necessarily the result of "not caring". It can just as easily be "not enough funds and/or resources and/or knowhow". That's why it's disingenuous to say "if they didn't stop me from cheating, then they're OK with cheating".

Perhaps it's just a tolerance up to a certain point. Cheat codes for games have existed for as long as there have been games. Maybe at the start they were supposed to only be a dev secret, but we know how that went. Today, cheat codes are almost SOP. Like I said above, I had one made specifically for me. Mods cheat intended systems, yet some games, like the Elder Scrolls series are alive and popular because of mods. Again, it gets back to that quote I paraphrased and perhaps the fact that cheating in games isn't as vile an act as some would like to make it out to be (again, multiplayer games notwithstanding).

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Funny how in an industry where every game's development is a compromise, where there are countless ideas and aspirations that are cut due to the realities of working with finite amounts of time and resources, that you decided to exclude "it would be a luxury they can't afford to protect achievements".

And if they considered it important enough, they would find ways to do it within the scope of their project. If it is something that is cut due to time and budget, that means it's low on the totem pole of importance.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Also, as I've already said, the social and competitive aspects of Steam's achievements system are developed and maintained by Valve. It's not the devs that made achievements social and competitive, so there's even less reason for them to go out of their way to protect them.

Exactly, making threads like this kinda pointless.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

It's not "allowing themselves". It affects them. A 1% achievement is more satisfying than a 2% achievement. Significantly so, even. That's not a unique and radical take on the system, that's how the system is designed. So when cheaters artificially inflate a number that's meant to show how many players actually accomplished a certain task, then the enjoyment those players have earned is compromised.

Not to say that the experience isn't compromised for those players, but to me, as I said before, it just sounds like it's making a mountain out of a molehill. I have a slight case of OCD. I could do things that would negate that to some extent, but it's not something that has really affected my life in a big negative way, so I deal with it. Sometimes, it makes games less fun for me, but again, I deal with that reality myself. So yes, something like this is allowing yourself to be affected by a relatively minor problem, that doesn't affect the stats all that much. If one percentage point is that big of a deal, I just don't know what to say. There's a lot more important things to get worked up about in the gaming sphere.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Again (again), you don't have to care. I'm not asking you to change your habits. I'm not even asking you to give a ♥♥♥♥ about how I'm enjoying my games. All I'm asking is that you stop trying to portray me as unreasonable for trying to enjoy a system as it was designed to be enjoyed.

And I view how it was designed to be different, based on the things I have laid out throughout my posts. Certainly, I don't dispute it can and is used as a social and competitive form of entertainment, but I look at the bigger picture of what achievements really are, and the options that Valve provides to ignore much, if not all, of the social aspects. I don't think that's any more unreasonable than someone who enjoys the social aspects. But again, when were talking about a single percentage point in what is, in the grand scheme of life itself, an absolutely meaningless thing, then yeah, I'm sorry, but I think the way that some people do get worked up about it is unreasonable.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

That's what the system is. The whole purpose of the system is to affect player motivation. An individual, local-only, untracked achievement has a different value than an achievement that is recorded and compared to everyone else's. The collection and sharing of player data has been gamified so that collecting and comparing achievements is its own game. You don't have to play if you don't want, you don't even have to care, but it's there for that purpose.

The value is only different to the individual interacting with it. Socialness and competitiveness is only one purpose of the system. And I would argue that if it can be ignored or hidden (as private options allow for), then that isn't even the primary purpose of the system. It's simply there for those who wish to use it as such.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

An inherent quality is one that exists regardless of how one interacts with a system normally.

No, an inherent quality is one that exists regardless of whether it's perceived or acknowledged.

Yes, but not as an exclusionary principle to my statement, but as a complementary one. That quality is there no matter how one interacts with it (as long as they do it within the normal parameters of the system, and not by sidestepping it through cheating), but also whether the person perceives those qualities as they interact with the system or acknowledges that they exist. Once again, my examples show that an Achievement System in and of itself is not inherently social. It gains that quality if used in conjunction with a social system. If Achievement Systems were inherently social, then every single one of them would have a social interaction that could not be avoided by interacting with them normally. They do not.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

"Normally"? What does that mean? It certainly wouldn't function the same. Player motivations would differ greatly. Personal satisfaction from achievement acquirement would change dramatically. They would "function" in the sense that the game will recognize when you get an achievement, but there would no longer be any social or competitive aspect, making it a completely different system. A "normal" system, sure, but not the system we have.

Normally means by not circumventing their proper function by cheating them. But they certainly would function no differently without global stats or other social elements because they weren't made with that intention. Again all an Achievement System is designed for is to increase play time and player engagement with a game. It does that no matter what else you slap on them, or whatever other systems they are integrated with. Player motivation is an unrelated element. There are gamers who have no interest in achievements whatsoever, so never pursue them. But that still does not change the inherent nature or function of what the Achievement is there to serve.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

I agree that removing the global stats would have a direct effect on a small percentage of players who are motivated by such things, but that is all that would be affected.
And I agree that removing people's ability to use 3rd party software to cheat achievements (if it were possible) would have a direct effect on a small percentage of players who are motivated by such things, but that is all that would be affected.
It's nice to agree, isn't it?

Oh absolutely. Again the amount of people that cheat achievements, let alone use SAM are insignificantly small. However, as has always been my point, Undertaking the task of implementing things that make SAM impossible to use also negates things that allow for emergent gameplay. To me that would be cutting off the nose to spit the face, and since the number of people who use SAM is insignificant, then the measures needed to eliminate it are not worth the costs.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

Początkowo opublikowane przez BJWyler:

The harder achievements would certainly not be significantly more ignored than they are now.

Of course they would. it's absurd to suggest otherwise. Providing people with a number that shows how rare an achievement is along with giving them the chance to get bragging rights has a significant effect on motivation.

No it wouldn't because the number of people whose primary motivation is to be part of an elite group (or to be on the 4th grade playground saying "I'm better than yoooouu, I'm, better than yooouuu), is a small percentage of the people who do complete achievements overall. So the number who would do it for bragging rights is not enough to cause them to be significantly more ignored.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Tanoomba:

But "whatever their motivation is" is greatly affected by Steam's social and competitive features.

Only if you have an interest in the social and competitive features. I have zero motivation in that regard, as well as zero motivation for bragging rights. Again, anecdotally, I would dare to say that most people do not have social and competitiveness as their primary motivating factors if the numbers of those who have joined groups for such versus overall users on the platform is any indication.

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Well They do that with the Hardware survey results don't they.

If you think people don't get competitive about hardware then you don't know the PC community.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

It's only a competition if the other person reciprocates.

No, it's not. The motivation to do something others can't or won't do is what makes it competitive.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

But people who aren't part of your competition aren't bound by whatever rules yyou made up.

I didn't make them up. You keep ignoring that I simply want to use the system as designed.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

You're racing. I'm just on my way to the store for groceries

If this were true, you wouldn't be cheating to get there.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

I've already shown that there can be other points.

No, you haven't. Your "other point" was "just because".

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Well if it is of the sex-comedy genre I wouldn't think that. But if it was just of the 'comedy' genre. Then the argument could be made,.. nudity and its effects, purpose, and meaning is contextual in story telling.

Right, and the context here is that Steam provided competitive gamers with a way to gamify their achievement collecting for bragging rights. Saying "Nuh-uh, they're just arbitrary numbers provided for the sake of arbitrary numbers" ignores that context.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

The devs of any game could easily shut down SAM and block it if they wanted to right now.

I don't believe this for a second.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Most don't because they really don't care.

You keep repeating this non-sequitur. "They could be doing more than they are, so they don't care" is a fallacy. Also, again, the social and competitive elements were added by Steam, not by the devs.

[Komarimaru]

You keep spouting the lie, on how it's competitive, and a achievements worth by rarity. Never played on Console? They rate achievements by points, or a medal. Has nothing to do with how many unlocked it. Steam just says how many unlocked it

Medals on PSN, Gamerscore Points on Xbox Live.

No such thing on Steam, nor will there ever be is my guess.

And yes, the devs could easily shut down SAM by making Protected Achievements. But it's not worth it and a waste of time.

[Tanoomba]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

You keep spouting the lie, on how it's competitive, and a achievements worth by rarity. Never played on Console? They rate achievements by points, or a medal. Has nothing to do with how many unlocked it. Steam just says how many unlocked it

Yes. That's what makes it different.

Początkowo opublikowane przez Komarimaru:

And yes, the devs could easily shut down SAM by making Protected Achievements.

Source?