add more examples of logical fallacies to the rules

[Psymon²]

straw man
gish gallop
false dilemma
no true scotsman
sealioning

i shouldn't have to list them all as there are plenty of other[en.wikipedia.org] places[rationalwiki.org] already[utminers.utep.edu].

they appear too often and are purely detrimental to any hope of rational constructive discussion.

effectively, an expansion on the rule of "derailing a thread", or the unwritten rule of "attempting to bait users into non-constructive arguments"

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by reaper:

Steam discussion is far from a debate club. I understand your frustration with the way some people hold discussions in here, but it's not worth getting so worked up about it. It only leads to bans and thread locks. After years of posting comments here, I can tell you with utmost confidence that it is best to just post your comment and resist confronting people with opposing views. Unless, of course, you have patience and motivation to keep it clean.

The way I see it, suggestion forum is just a place to throw some ideas into the mix. I really don't like how recently it became a place to argue over various aspects of moderation and how forums should be handled. Steam client functionality is way more important than "forum warfare".

the apathy you are suggesting is exactly why these forums have gone to ♥♥♥♥.
those who derail and gas light are allowed to run rampant and destroy any hope of discussion.
those who call out the malpractice are swiftly deleted, banned, locked.
hence so many threads about moderation.
the forums are overrun by the trolls.

[Garou]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

Originally posted by reaper:

Steam discussion is far from a debate club. I understand your frustration with the way some people hold discussions in here, but it's not worth getting so worked up about it. It only leads to bans and thread locks. After years of posting comments here, I can tell you with utmost confidence that it is best to just post your comment and resist confronting people with opposing views. Unless, of course, you have patience and motivation to keep it clean.

The way I see it, suggestion forum is just a place to throw some ideas into the mix. I really don't like how recently it became a place to argue over various aspects of moderation and how forums should be handled. Steam client functionality is way more important than "forum warfare".

the apathy you are suggesting is exactly why these forums have gone to ♥♥♥♥.
those who derail and gas light are allowed to run rampant and destroy any hope of discussion.
those who call out the malpractice are swiftly deleted, banned, locked.
hence so many threads about moderation.
the forums are overrun by the trolls.

The fight you're suggesting isn't viable. This forum culture cannot be changed from the user level. There's simply not enough fresh blood or volume of user activity. Moderation team has already been replaced and things haven't improved apparently. What matters most ,in the end, is your own mental stability and enjoyment of something (in this case - Steam). Don't let a small part of the service affect your ENTIRE experience.

edit:
only the Steam related forums, e.g. Discussions, Suggestions, Community have an established and mostly unchanged core community. Most Game specific forums are quite diverse in their composition and participation.

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

the apathy you are suggesting is exactly why these forums have gone to ♥♥♥♥.
those who derail and gas light are allowed to run rampant and destroy any hope of discussion.
those who call out the malpractice are swiftly deleted, banned, locked.
hence so many threads about moderation.
the forums are overrun by the trolls.

The fight you're suggesting isn't viable. This forum culture cannot be changed from the user level. There's simply not enough fresh blood or volume of user activity. Moderation team has already been replaced and things haven't improved apparently. What matters most ,in the end, is your own mental stability and enjoyment of something (in this case - Steam). Don't let a small part of the service affect your ENTIRE experience.

edit:
only the Steam related forums, e.g. Discussions, Suggestions, Community have an established and mostly unchanged core community. Most Game specific forums are quite diverse in their composition and participation.

you're encouraging people to leave the forums rather than for the forums to be improved?

[Garou]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

Originally posted by reaper:

The fight you're suggesting isn't viable. This forum culture cannot be changed from the user level. There's simply not enough fresh blood or volume of user activity. Moderation team has already been replaced and things haven't improved apparently. What matters most ,in the end, is your own mental stability and enjoyment of something (in this case - Steam). Don't let a small part of the service affect your ENTIRE experience.

edit:
only the Steam related forums, e.g. Discussions, Suggestions, Community have an established and mostly unchanged core community. Most Game specific forums are quite diverse in their composition and participation.

you're encouraging people to leave the forums rather than for the forums to be improved?

There's a middle ground. People can post their comments and unsubscribe from threads.

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

you're encouraging people to leave the forums rather than for the forums to be improved?

There's a middle ground. People can post their comments and unsubscribe from threads.

i don't follow your reasoning.
I'm aiming for the forums to foster a better standard of discussion.
you're... suggesting people fire and forget? no discussion?

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

you're encouraging people to leave the forums rather than for the forums to be improved?

There's a middle ground. People can post their comments and unsubscribe from threads.

Unfortunately as i've repeatedly pointed out some users are incapable of not engaging with those they dislike, They can't help but repeatedly attack them which either results in their own ban when they break the rules, or both parties being banned for both breaking the rules.

Its a vicious cycle because they see another user as breaking the rules and they then break the rules to attack them back. The advice of ignore and report is often given to them, but they obsess over the other people not getting banned and try to use that as an excuse to break the rules themselves.

Originally posted by Psymon²:

you're... suggesting people fire and forget? no discussion?

Nope, just the simple concept of if you see or think someone is breaking the rules... you don't have to engage, antagonize, or even acknowledge their existence. Refute their post if you want and don't engage them.

[Garou]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

Originally posted by reaper:

There's a middle ground. People can post their comments and unsubscribe from threads.

i don't follow your reasoning.
I'm aiming for the forums to foster a better standard of discussion.
you're... suggesting people fire and forget? no discussion?

There is a difference between being forced into a verbal fighting situation and discussion. If you cannot ignore the instigators and are always dragged into the arguments resulting in bans is it really such a bad thing to avoid something that is harmful to you while being able to voice your opinion?

Originally posted by brian9824:

Nope, just the simple concept of if you see or think someone is breaking the rules... you don't have to engage, antagonize, or even acknowledge their existence. Refute their post if you want and don't engage them.

I will go on record and say that quite a few things that brian posts don't align with my personal views, but I haven't engaged in an argument with him for the longest time. I do post in his threads and he replies to my comments occasionally and this is as far as it goes most of the time. There is no need to let it devolve into bannable interactions.

[Nx Machina]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

the apathy you are suggesting is exactly why these forums have gone to ♥♥♥♥.
those who derail and gas light are allowed to run rampant and destroy any hope of discussion.

Your post history is public.

Originally posted by Psymon²:

those who call out the malpractice are swiftly deleted, banned, locked.
hence so many threads about moderation.
the forums are overrun by the trolls.

Correction - they want the forums to adhere to rules "they set" and to remove those "specific posters" they deem as "trolls." Those "specific posters" who can post on the suggestion and ideas forum, because IT IS a "discussion" forum.

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

i don't follow your reasoning.
I'm aiming for the forums to foster a better standard of discussion.
you're... suggesting people fire and forget? no discussion?

There is a difference between being forced into a verbal fighting situation and discussion. If you cannot ignore the instigators and are always dragged into the arguments resulting in bans is it really such a bad thing to avoid something that is harmful to you while being able to voice your opinion?

this isn't about just me.

adding rules that disallow everyone from using terrible fallacies in arguing will benefit all users, and the whole forum.

it's hugely impractical to expect all users to learn who the clowns are AND expect them to ignore attempt to derail

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

it's hugely impractical to expect all users to learn who the clowns are AND expect them to ignore attempt to derail

You don't have to know that a user is a repeat offender and frequent member of the ban club to not lower yourself to their level and engage them with behaviour that breaks the rules.

If they do anything that breaks the rules you don't respond in kind. You report it, and ignore them and let moderation deal with it. It's not complicated. Breaking the rules because you think someone else broke the rules is never the answer

[Garou]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

Originally posted by reaper:

There is a difference between being forced into a verbal fighting situation and discussion. If you cannot ignore the instigators and are always dragged into the arguments resulting in bans is it really such a bad thing to avoid something that is harmful to you while being able to voice your opinion?

this isn't about just me.

adding rules that disallow everyone from using terrible fallacies in arguing will benefit all users, and the whole forum.

it's hugely impractical to expect all users to learn who the clowns are AND expect them to ignore attempt to derail

Most people don't read PSA threads, they don't even read rules. If there's another sticky thread with a list of fallacies, I'm pretty sure it will go on deaf ears. You and I only know who the "regulars" are through experience of participating in these forums. That cannot be taught or loaded into people's brains as if they are Neo learning kung-fu. Ignoring gaslighting or/and bait is something that people can do on their own if they have the fortitude to resist such behaviour.

Originally posted by Psymon²:

this isn't about just me.

My bad, "you" in this context refers to any person participating in discussion, not you in particular.

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

this isn't about just me.

adding rules that disallow everyone from using terrible fallacies in arguing will benefit all users, and the whole forum.

it's hugely impractical to expect all users to learn who the clowns are AND expect them to ignore attempt to derail

Most people don't read PSA threads, they don't even read rules. If there's another sticky thread with a list of fallacies, I'm pretty sure it will go on deaf ears. You and I only know who the "regulars" are through experience of participating in these forums. That cannot be taught or loaded into people's brains as if they are Neo learning kung-fu. Ignoring gaslighting or/and bait is something that people can do on their own if they have the fortitude to resist such behaviour.

we're back to you encouraging apathy again?
it's simple, really.
and i feel like I am repeating what I've said in OP...
there should be clarity that valve do not allow logical fallacies, as they are a clear example of "derailing" which is against the rules.
alas, report a post as such, and that seems to go ignored, heavily implying the moderators haven't got a clue...
I'm suggestion valve to do their job and keep the forums clean so that people can have a rational and constructive discussion.
I'm saying they need to do something about the, what did you call them, "regulars"?

apathy is a form of enabling.
ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
every new person who arrives at these forums doesn't know who they are, you agree on that.
so it's not practical to expect each new person to go through the trails and tribulations to learn who they are, as it's much more likely the new comers will get swept up in their ploy and either banned, or the thread locked. trolls win.

i don't follow why you're against the suggestion to make the forums a better place?
"don't update the rules because people won't read them" doesn't make sense.
by that logic, why write down any rules at all?

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

this isn't about just me.

My bad, "you" in this context refers to any person participating in discussion, not you in particular.

thanks for clarifying

[Aachen]

So, why exactly do we need a local list of informal fallacies in the vein of the Gallop?

You’ll still indulge in, e. g., false dichotomy.

[Garou]

Originally posted by Psymon²:

Originally posted by reaper:

Most people don't read PSA threads, they don't even read rules. If there's another sticky thread with a list of fallacies, I'm pretty sure it will go on deaf ears. You and I only know who the "regulars" are through experience of participating in these forums. That cannot be taught or loaded into people's brains as if they are Neo learning kung-fu. Ignoring gaslighting or/and bait is something that people can do on their own if they have the fortitude to resist such behaviour.

we're back to you encouraging apathy again?
it's simple, really.
and i feel like I am repeating what I've said in OP...
there should be clarity that valve do not allow logical fallacies, as they are a clear example of "derailing" which is against the rules.
alas, report a post as such, and that seems to go ignored, heavily implying the moderators haven't got a clue...
I'm suggestion valve to do their job and keep the forums clean so that people can have a rational and constructive discussion.
I'm saying they need to do something about the, what did you call them, "regulars"?

apathy is a form of enabling.
ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
every new person who arrives at these forums doesn't know who they are, you agree on that.
so it's not practical to expect each new person to go through the trails and tribulations to learn who they are, as it's much more likely the new comers will get swept up in their ploy and either banned, or the thread locked. trolls win.

i don't follow why you're against the suggestion to make the forums a better place?
"don't update the rules because people won't read them" doesn't make sense.
by that logic, why write down any rules at all?

Originally posted by reaper:

My bad, "you" in this context refers to any person participating in discussion, not you in particular.

thanks for clarifying

Posting your thoughts in any thread just as you've been able to do all along is hardly apathy. Not replying to people who instigate you is hardly apathy, In fact, it send a more powerful message than outright fighting with them. And keeps you from getting hit by a ban hammer.

If there is a gatekeeping problem or a clique problem or a report abuse problem getting yourself banned or going at it in a public forum is probably not going to solve any of those problems.

Now when it comes to the claim of me being against making forums a better place that's not true at all. I just don't think extra paragraphs in the rulebook or a longer sticky thread is going to affect the established forum culture.

You have the most control over your own actions and that's the choice you have to make.

[Psymon²]

Originally posted by reaper:

Originally posted by Psymon²:

we're back to you encouraging apathy again?
it's simple, really.
and i feel like I am repeating what I've said in OP...
there should be clarity that valve do not allow logical fallacies, as they are a clear example of "derailing" which is against the rules.
alas, report a post as such, and that seems to go ignored, heavily implying the moderators haven't got a clue...
I'm suggestion valve to do their job and keep the forums clean so that people can have a rational and constructive discussion.
I'm saying they need to do something about the, what did you call them, "regulars"?

apathy is a form of enabling.
ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.
every new person who arrives at these forums doesn't know who they are, you agree on that.
so it's not practical to expect each new person to go through the trails and tribulations to learn who they are, as it's much more likely the new comers will get swept up in their ploy and either banned, or the thread locked. trolls win.

i don't follow why you're against the suggestion to make the forums a better place?
"don't update the rules because people won't read them" doesn't make sense.
by that logic, why write down any rules at all?

thanks for clarifying

Posting your thoughts in any thread just as you've been able to do all along is hardly apathy. Not replying to people who instigate you is hardly apathy, In fact, it send a more powerful message than outright fighting with them. And keeps you from getting hit by a ban hammer.

If there is a gatekeeping problem or a clique problem or a report abuse problem getting yourself banned or going at it in a public forum is probably not going to solve any of those problems.

Now when it comes to the claim of me being against making forums a better place that's not true at all. I just don't think extra paragraphs in the rulebook or a longer sticky thread is going to affect the established forum culture.

You have the most control over your own actions and that's the choice you have to make.

sorry, everything you describe looks like suggesting apathy.
it looks like you suggest the users (who are powerless and unaware) to ignore the problem ("regulars"?) instead of getting the moderators to do a better job of ridding the forums of the problematic users who resort to well known and documented methods of derailing a "discussion".

by all means, clarify if I've not understood, but it really looks like you are infavour of things continuing as they are and letting the problem fester.