Valve should stop taking 30% from indie devs

[Pierce Dalton]

Taking 30% from big shots is perfectly fine, after all they're $wimming in money.

It's not reasonable to do the same with indie (sometimes solo) devs, though. Usually, these people weren't even paid to make a game, sometimes it's the opposite: they spent money to make their own games. In such cases, their balance is negative already.

Why is Valve so greedy? Don't they have enough money?

FYI, according to Bloomberg, Gabe Newell is one of the 500 richest people in the world, currently at position 262:
https://www.bloomberg.com/billionaires/profiles/gabe-newell/

On the other hand, various indie devs don't even have stable income. Couldn't uncle Gabe be more kind to them? It's not like he wouldn't be able to pay the rent if that cut is lowered, right?

(Yes, I know the 30% cut drops if a game sells a certain number of units. Most indie games won't reach that number of sales, though.)

Edit: Dear anon,

Thank you for the points.

[Start_Running]

引用自 Thermal Lance：

That famous image about the guy selling on credit and the other selling cash comes to mind. Not entirely appropriate but business is business.

Selling on credit works pretty well. until people can't pay... then you crash like the Hindenburg...that's basically what caused the economic crises in the mid 2000's. , and that mini collapse during the early pandemic...

Cash doesn't work as well but it's far more resilient to market upsets

[Pierce Dalton]

引用自 Start_Running：

引用自 kitt：

I mean of course Devs will say 30% is too much. I also say that giving 50% of my salary away for taxes etc is too much.


I mean who doesn't want more money for their own?

And if devs think it's too much, then they are free to go else where.

Dear Start_Running,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

As I've mentioned before, that's a fragile argument because most PC gamers don't want to buy games elsewhere.

Are you familiar with the Chaos;Head Noah controversy?

[Thermal Lance]

引用自 Start_Running：

引用自 Thermal Lance：

That famous image about the guy selling on credit and the other selling cash comes to mind. Not entirely appropriate but business is business.

Selling on credit works pretty well. until people can't pay... then you crash like the Hindenburg...that's basically what caused the economic crises in the mid 2000's. , and that mini collapse during the early pandemic...

Cash doesn't work as well but it's far more resilient to market upsets

Heh, I was applying it more in the line that being too "charitable" ultimately hurts your bottomline.

Which quite frankly is a normal stance to have as a business. Yes, times ain't easy for indies right now. But, it literally is the case for everyone and I don't remember anyone hooking me a discount.

The prices are fair, otherwise we would have seen a mass exodus of devs by now if they didn't made money out of it. If it ain't enough for them, they can try somewhere else.

This sounds like "Tax the rich" regardless of it being warranted or not.

[Start_Running]

引用自 Thermal Lance：

引用自 Start_Running：

Selling on credit works pretty well. until people can't pay... then you crash like the Hindenburg...that's basically what caused the economic crises in the mid 2000's. , and that mini collapse during the early pandemic...

Cash doesn't work as well but it's far more resilient to market upsets

Heh, I was applying it more in the line that being too "charitable" ultimately hurts your bottomline.

Which quite frankly is a normal stance to have as a business. Yes, times ain't easy for indies right now. But, it literally is the case for everyone and I don't remember anyone hooking me a discount.

The prices are fair, otherwise we would have seen a mass exodus of devs by now if they didn't made money out of it. If it ain't enough for them, they can try somewhere else.

This sounds like "Tax the rich" regardless of it being warranted or not.

The ironing is the studios that have it worse are mid-tier studios. Indies have the greatest flexibility with their inpust costs and overheads. This is why they can take risks. Large studios have more of a buffer to shield them tthis is why they can afford to spend more on relatively low risk ventures.

But it's in the mid tier range where things are the most hellish. THey have higher overheads and costs than the indies, lack the buffer of the large stuidios but still have to take relatuively high risks.

[Pierce Dalton]

引用自 Thermal Lance：

引用自 Start_Running：

Selling on credit works pretty well. until people can't pay... then you crash like the Hindenburg...that's basically what caused the economic crises in the mid 2000's. , and that mini collapse during the early pandemic...

Cash doesn't work as well but it's far more resilient to market upsets

Heh, I was applying it more in the line that being too "charitable" ultimately hurts your bottomline.

Which quite frankly is a normal stance to have as a business. Yes, times ain't easy for indies right now. But, it literally is the case for everyone and I don't remember anyone hooking me a discount.

The prices are fair, otherwise we would have seen a mass exodus of devs by now if they didn't made money out of it. If it ain't enough for them, they can try somewhere else.

This sounds like "Tax the rich" regardless of it being warranted or not.

Dear Thermal Lance,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Actually, that's not the case for Valve, they're not having a hard time at all. In fact, it's the opposite: the pandemic benefited the game industry a lot, including Valve, obviously.

Like I've said, there is a reason the exodus you mentioned didn't happen (and probably never will):

Most people don't like the idea of buying games elsewhere, which makes indie devs opting out of Steam a bad idea. If you're making a game, you'll read this question several times:

Will it be on Steam? Pls release this on Steam!

As for taxing the rich differently, it's interesting to note that some countries do that already:
https://www.investopedia.com/incometax/which-countries-have-highest-taxes-high-incomes-0/

[[N]ebsun]

引用自 Pierce Dalton：

Indie devs can pay their "rent" on Steam. In fact, they are doing it right now.

As you can see, though, most of them think Valve is not doing enough to justify such abusive cut from indie devs.

Then they don't need to put their games on the Steam store... the fact that they still do despite the 30% or whatever cut, means that it is worth it at that percentage. If they do not want to pay for the service, they can use whatever other store they like. If they want their game on Steam, that is the price they will need to pay to access this market of millions of potential customers.
It is not abuse - the developers are choosing to use Steam at that rate, and they know exactly what to expect prior to agreeing.
The developer / publisher sets the price that their game sells at, so if they think their game is worth more or if they want more money, they can always increase their price to make up the difference.

[Thermal Lance]

引用自 Pierce Dalton：

引用自 Thermal Lance：

Heh, I was applying it more in the line that being too "charitable" ultimately hurts your bottomline.

Which quite frankly is a normal stance to have as a business. Yes, times ain't easy for indies right now. But, it literally is the case for everyone and I don't remember anyone hooking me a discount.

The prices are fair, otherwise we would have seen a mass exodus of devs by now if they didn't made money out of it. If it ain't enough for them, they can try somewhere else.

This sounds like "Tax the rich" regardless of it being warranted or not.

Dear Thermal Lance,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Actually, that's not the case for Valve, they're not having a hard time at all. In fact, it's the opposite: the pandemic benefited the game industry a lot, including Valve, obviously.

Like I've said, there is a reason the exodus you mentioned didn't happen (and probably never will):

Most people don't like the idea of buying games elsewhere, which makes indie devs opting out of Steam a bad idea. If you're making a game, you'll read this question several times:

Will it be on Steam? Pls release this on Steam!

As for taxing the rich differently, it's interesting to note that some countries do that already:
https://www.investopedia.com/incometax/which-countries-have-highest-taxes-high-incomes-0/

The point is that indies are not "special". Not that Steam is going bankrupt.

[Pierce Dalton]

引用自 Nebsun：

引用自 Pierce Dalton：

Indie devs can pay their "rent" on Steam. In fact, they are doing it right now.

As you can see, though, most of them think Valve is not doing enough to justify such abusive cut from indie devs.

Then they don't need to put their games on the Steam store... the fact that they still do despite the 30% or whatever cut, means that it is worth it at that percentage. If they do not want to pay for the service, they can use whatever other store they like. If they want their game on Steam, that is the price they will need to pay to access this market of millions of potential customers.
It is not abuse - the developers are choosing to use Steam at that rate, and they know exactly what to expect prior to agreeing.

Dear [N]ebsun,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

In fact, they don't need to put their games on Steam, but they should, otherwise their games would be less popular and sell less units.

Does that justify the 30% cut? According to them, no.

Please keep in mind that this is not about "not paying for the service", it's about indie devs paying a smaller cut.

[Pierce Dalton]

引用自 Thermal Lance：

引用自 Pierce Dalton：

Dear Thermal Lance,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Actually, that's not the case for Valve, they're not having a hard time at all. In fact, it's the opposite: the pandemic benefited the game industry a lot, including Valve, obviously.

Like I've said, there is a reason the exodus you mentioned didn't happen (and probably never will):

Most people don't like the idea of buying games elsewhere, which makes indie devs opting out of Steam a bad idea. If you're making a game, you'll read this question several times:

Will it be on Steam? Pls release this on Steam!

As for taxing the rich differently, it's interesting to note that some countries do that already:
https://www.investopedia.com/incometax/which-countries-have-highest-taxes-high-incomes-0/

The point is that indies are not "special". Not that Steam is going bankrupt.

Dear Thermal Lance,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Yes, they're not special. They're just less resourceful than AAA studios, which makes charging the same cut unfair.

[[?]legit]

引用自 Pierce Dalton：

引用自 legit：

This suggestion makes no sense and is against any industry standard practices.

Dear legit,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Can you please elaborate? Why it makes no sense?

Your suggestion is flawed at its core. There's not much to elaborate.

[Samurai]

Valve will look at this thread and increase to 31%.

[Thermal Lance]

引用自 Excalibur：

Valve will look at this thread and increase to 31%.

Either that or they are going to issue coupons.

[Pierce Dalton]

引用自 legit：

引用自 Pierce Dalton：

Dear legit,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Can you please elaborate? Why it makes no sense?

Your suggestion is flawed at its core. There's not much to elaborate.

Dear legit,

Thank you for the valuable contribution to this discussion.

Why is that? I don't see any flaw, what I see is gamers not supporting those that make games, which is amusing to me. You prefer to support the seller, why?

[Pierce Dalton]

引用自 Excalibur：

Valve will look at this thread and increase to 31%.

I would be surprised if they read it to begin with.

[Samurai]

引用自 Thermal Lance：

引用自 Excalibur：

Valve will look at this thread and increase to 31%.

Either that or they are going to issue coupons.

That's a brilliant idea though.