An update to publishing a game to Steam's ToS

[Uncle⁧⁧Sam]

Can the ToS please get updated to ban a mandatory launcher that isn't Steam if the game is bought on Steam. Example: You download Apex Legends, not only does it require Steam but also the Origin launcher, and more and more publishers/ developers are updating older games to require their launcher as well to play games we've bought on Steam. It's getting really irritating that I need to have multiple launchers for games that I've bought on Steam.

[Start_Running]

Nx Machina původně napsal:

loppantorkel původně napsal:

Yea, it's not here yet, but I think it's well within reason to assume that user protections also will be upgraded in the upcoming years. Updating isn't the issue here. It's downgrading the user experience. I think we've seen a few cases involving Apple and other manufacturers. Yea, they just 'upgraded' their software. Within their rights. The users 'agreed' to it.

You haven't proven it downgrades the user experience, you simply make a blanket statement to be inclusive of everyone.

I have never had an issue with Denuvo related to performance. Example Deathloop and my cpu is below the minimum spec. I have also never had issue with launchers such as the 2k launcher.

And again one wwould have to prove it to be a downgrade. I mean you can say user experience but thats a nebulous term. a user experience at any given time is affected mostly by internal matters. WHich are outside the responsibility of the publisher.

On the other hand having a more streamlined management process which shortens patch rollouts, etc can be convincingly argued as an updgrade to user experience. as would be the ability to launch opr manage multiple publisher products from a single interface.

[loppantorkel]

RiO původně napsal:

Tito Shivan původně napsal:

We're gettin into a (way) bigger can of worms there though. Starting from defining what constitutes a 'launcher' and following by the devloper's right to decide how their software needs to operate (IE: A launcher with a third party login may be a decision taken by the developer to curb software piracy) and what happens with the already sold software in Steam (Version freeze for Steam owners?) if the dev follows development with a launcher outside of Steam.

It's a though nut to crack.

All in all the result we'd get would be likely the same. Devs would follow the path of less resistance, which will likely be selling out of Steam. And they're not short of options nowadays.

For what it's worth; in at least the EU territories the addition of the requirement for use of a third party account post-sale at least isn't even morally or legally grey anymore. It's just plain pitch black. By way of the EU directive that covers distance selling.

Traders are legally required to meet certain requirements wrt information they must actively present to consumers before purchase. Among those is the presence and purpose of any technical protection measures, which the consumer wouldn't evidently inherently be aware of. This includes DRM; anti-cheat; anti-tamperware; and also online account requirements. (Where on Steam the requirement of the Steam account is one of those things each consumer would be evidently aware of.)

These informational requirements are precontractual information that becomes part of the contract of sale and can't be changed without express mutual agreement. This is also mandatory law, i.e. cannot be diverged from through e.g. general terms of service.

If a publisher adds a third-party account requirement to content for existing purchases through a mandatory update, then that means they've created a non-conformance with the original contract of sale.

Non-conformance there is something which the trader - i.e. Valve/Steam - would be liable to resolve. Furthermore, as of Jan 2022 there's new legislation which also states that for platforms where supply is continuous, e.g. where you have on-demand access to and installation of the content available, said period of liability lasts as long as the contract of sale lasts. Which for purchases on Steam is a contract of indefinite time, which lasts until you close your Steam account. In other words: even if you bought a title as far back as the first days of Steam as a platform and the publisher for that title adds a launcher to it now, then Steam would still be liable for that occurrence of non-conformance.

Ultimately Steam can't directly do anything about it though, since they're not in control of the software itself. The only thing they can do is pressure publishers to not engage in such shenanigans; or to pressure them to undo them when non-conformance claims arise. Failing that, they will have failed to restore conformance with contract. Which means consumers could be within their legal rights to terminate contract and saddle Valve with the cost of refunds.


All in all this is all a very, very precarious situation.
The only reason this hasn't blown up thus far, is because this legislation isn't being enforced pro-actively; but either requires consumers to sue -- which rarely if ever happens over the amount of money we're talking here; literally peanuts -- or to mass-report to appointed market-authorities and hope they make enough noise that those will prioritize turning it into a case instead -- which takes forever and is unlikely to ever get off the ground to begin with, considering how notoriously chronically underfunded these market authorities are known to be.

The big publishers that commit to adding these launchers post-release, pretty much know and bank on these being a thing and remaining a thing. And even if things would go sideways; they are not the legally liable party in the first place. So why care in the first place?

That's a very nice post. Sort of what I had some vague notions, but no in-depth knowledge of. Well explained!

[[?]legit]

A marketplace can ask their authors (sellers) for exclusivity, yes, that's possible and quite a common practice.

Steam is pretty much the biggest marketplace for selling games, any game that is being sold here is massively profitating from that huge visibility. Games that are not sold in steam, are never going to reach the sales they would get in steam.

Unfortunately it's not only a matter of where the games are being sold at, those games also force customers from steam to install their ♥♥♥♥♥♥ bloatware. And there's the problem. It's safe to say that steam is losing influence and getting weaker, since this unfortunate trend is gaining traction.

[loppantorkel]

Start_Running původně napsal:

Nx Machina původně napsal:

You haven't proven it downgrades the user experience, you simply make a blanket statement to be inclusive of everyone.

I have never had an issue with Denuvo related to performance. Example Deathloop and my cpu is below the minimum spec. I have also never had issue with launchers such as the 2k launcher.

And again one wwould have to prove it to be a downgrade. I mean you can say user experience but thats a nebulous term. a user experience at any given time is affected mostly by internal matters. WHich are outside the responsibility of the publisher.

On the other hand having a more streamlined management process which shortens patch rollouts, etc can be convincingly argued as an updgrade to user experience. as would be the ability to launch opr manage multiple publisher products from a single interface.

Didn't you say this wasn't a grey area? That they could do whatever they wanted with their product? Why would it be necessary to prove this in that case? ...are you guys trying to move the goal posts?

[Yasahi]

RiO původně napsal:

Tito Shivan původně napsal:

We're gettin into a (way) bigger can of worms there though. Starting from defining what constitutes a 'launcher' and following by the devloper's right to decide how their software needs to operate (IE: A launcher with a third party login may be a decision taken by the developer to curb software piracy) and what happens with the already sold software in Steam (Version freeze for Steam owners?) if the dev follows development with a launcher outside of Steam.

It's a though nut to crack.

All in all the result we'd get would be likely the same. Devs would follow the path of less resistance, which will likely be selling out of Steam. And they're not short of options nowadays.

For what it's worth; in at least the EU territories the addition of the requirement for use of a third party account post-sale at least isn't even morally or legally grey anymore. It's just plain pitch black. By way of the EU directive that covers distance selling.

--snip--

Ultimately Steam can't directly do anything about it though, since they're not in control of the software itself. The only thing they can do is pressure publishers to not engage in such shenanigans; or to pressure them to undo them when non-conformance claims arise. Failing that, they will have failed to restore conformance with contract. Which means consumers could be within their legal rights to terminate contract and saddle Valve with the cost of refunds.

All in all this is all a very, very precarious situation.
The only reason this hasn't blown up thus far, is because this legislation isn't being enforced pro-actively; but either requires consumers to sue -- which rarely if ever happens over the amount of money we're talking here; literally peanuts -- or to mass-report to appointed market-authorities and hope they make enough noise that those will prioritize turning it into a case instead -- which takes forever and is unlikely to ever get off the ground to begin with, considering how notoriously chronically underfunded these market authorities are known to be.

The big publishers that commit to adding these launchers post-release, pretty much know and bank on these being a thing and remaining a thing. And even if things would go sideways; they are not the legally liable party in the first place. So why care in the first place? It's Steam/Valve that would be in that incredibly unfortunate situation; not them.

It will be interesting to see how things turn out if this at some point does go to court in one of the EU countries. Developers/publishers adding launchers can also happen when a studio is bought by another one so I'd argue there's at least two different cases that might need a ruling.

We probably won't see anything major regarding this for a few years at least and a ruling that sticks would take even longer.

[[?]legit]

Yasahi původně napsal:

It will be interesting to see how things turn out if this at some point does go to court in one of the EU countries.

Hopefully. The sooner, the better.

[Start_Running]

loppantorkel původně napsal:

Start_Running původně napsal:

And again one wwould have to prove it to be a downgrade. I mean you can say user experience but thats a nebulous term. a user experience at any given time is affected mostly by internal matters. WHich are outside the responsibility of the publisher.

On the other hand having a more streamlined management process which shortens patch rollouts, etc can be convincingly argued as an updgrade to user experience. as would be the ability to launch opr manage multiple publisher products from a single interface.

Didn't you say this wasn't a grey area? That they could do whatever they wanted with their product? Why would it be necessary to prove this in that case? ...are you guys trying to move the goal posts?

Just satying. EVen if they had to. They'd be better armed to do so. :-)

[Crazy Tiger]

legit původně napsal:

It's safe to say that steam is losing influence

Have you considered that this "influence" you're attributing to Steam isn't actually a real thing and just a construct created by you personally?

[[?]legit]

Crazy Tiger původně napsal:

legit původně napsal:

It's safe to say that steam is losing influence

Have you considered that this "influence" you're attributing to Steam isn't actually a real thing and just a construct created by you personally?

You mean steam never really had any influence?

[RiO]

Crazy Tiger původně napsal:

legit původně napsal:

It's safe to say that steam is losing influence

Have you considered that this "influence" you're attributing to Steam isn't actually a real thing and just a construct created by you personally?

The "influence" Steam has is its existing market share and by consequence huge potential audience of Steam account-holders. The "influence" they are losing, is losing purchases from account-holders to other platforms and those account-holders slowly drifting away from Steam as their 'home base.'

[Start_Running]

RiO původně napsal:

Crazy Tiger původně napsal:

Have you considered that this "influence" you're attributing to Steam isn't actually a real thing and just a construct created by you personally?

The "influence" Steam has is its existing market share and by consequence huge potential audience of Steam account-holders. The "influence" they are losing, is losing purchases from account-holders to other platforms and those account-holders slowly drifting away from Steam as their 'home base.'

And the minute Valve tries flexing that influence...here come the anti-trust lawsuits.

[[?]legit]

Start_Running původně napsal:

RiO původně napsal:

The "influence" Steam has is its existing market share and by consequence huge potential audience of Steam account-holders. The "influence" they are losing, is losing purchases from account-holders to other platforms and those account-holders slowly drifting away from Steam as their 'home base.'

And the minute Valve tries flexing that influence...here come the anti-trust lawsuits.

Keep 'em coming

[RiO]

Start_Running původně napsal:

RiO původně napsal:

The "influence" Steam has is its existing market share and by consequence huge potential audience of Steam account-holders. The "influence" they are losing, is losing purchases from account-holders to other platforms and those account-holders slowly drifting away from Steam as their 'home base.'

And the minute Valve tries flexing that influence...here come the anti-trust lawsuits.

Correct.
It's honestly kind of unfair for the big companies that got to be big market-players via fair means; and now have to compete with small companies trying to break into the market with dirty tactics, i.e. Epic being exclusives; major publishers trying to use their own launchers as parasitic backdoors to prepare to jump ship to their own storefronts; etc.

[Tito Shivan]

Start_Running původně napsal:

And the minute Valve tries flexing that influence...here come the anti-trust lawsuits.

Funny how people here don't mind Steam behaving like an abusive monopoly when it benefits them.

[20 years to death]

ziga:yay: