MB 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 5:05
Change or clarify the rules regarding single / multiplayer 'cheats'
"post any content on Steam containing ... Cheating" - This post contains no cheats or cheating, it is discussing the history and rule surrounding cheating, there is no 'cheating content' in this post.

1st off, let me point out I am not in any way discussing here any particular cheat, I am discussing the rule about cheats.

PC gaming has a long history of 'cheats' and back in the 8 and 16bit days these cheats were for single player games and were put in to games by the developers themselves. Magazines etc would publish these cheats which typically involved pressing keys in the right order to unlock
said cheat. I can't give any examples because of the forum rules, but I can say that Valves games obviously have cheats built in to them which can freely be used by players.

So, to have a rule which doesn't allow any discussions surrounding this is very sad and overly draconian.

The rule was likely put in place not because of 'cheats' but because of 'hacks' - hacks to multi-player games.

And it's super-ironic that Valve has this rule and then blatantly ignores it every time there is a summer sale, it introduces a game and obviously not only allows but encourages it by the way of never doing anything to stop cheats and making it very easy to cheat. Valve does not make attempts to stop people from cheating en masse during the summer sale. Either Valve should follow it's own rules or it should change the rules. It is very poor to have a rule and only then use that rule in a discriminatory manner, that has a high risk of leading to abuse.

'cheating' in single player games should not be demonized, this cheating has a rich history, and allows fun and creative ways to play games.

Note I have not talked about multi-player games, I have nothing against stopping people from cheating in multi-player games. I think the rule should only include cheating in multi-player games.

The rule should be clarified so as not to cover single player game 'cheats', cheat codes, console commands, glitches etc.

DO NOT discuss any actual cheats here, that is against the rules.
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目前顯示第 1-15 則留言,共 46
[wan-clan.org] Gordy Freeman 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 5:06 
TL;DR.
MB 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 5:07 
引用自 WAN Gordy Freeman
TL;DR.
Short version: we should be allowed to discuss single player cheats.
76561198001062896 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 5:36 
except none of those things were cheats other than merely browser scripts

Not sure why ppl would make such a huge fuss over events that had a limited prize pool to begin with and with no guarantee one would have gotten anything out of it.
最後修改者:Zetikla; 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 5:37
Brujeira 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 6:13 
引用自 MontyB
引用自 WAN Gordy Freeman
TL;DR.
Short version: we should be allowed to discuss single player cheats.

Who's said that you aren't?
Crashed 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 6:16 
引用自 Brujeira
引用自 MontyB
Short version: we should be allowed to discuss single player cheats.

Who's said that you aren't?
As it stands the rules are ambiguous.
Brujeira 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 6:22 
引用自 Crashed
引用自 Brujeira

Who's said that you aren't?
As it stands the rules are ambiguous.

No, they're not. The SSA is quite clear on what constitutes a 'cheat' and Valve are bound by it, as are we all.
Tito Shivan 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 6:29 
引用自 Zetikla
Not sure why ppl would make such a huge fuss over events that had a limited prize pool to begin with and with no guarantee one would have gotten anything out of it.
Cheaters during the last Summer sale didn't get any significative statistical advantage on earning more prizes than people who just dropped by and played a little.

引用自 MontyB
Short version: we should be allowed to discuss single player cheats.
Developers can moderate their forums as they see fit. Some hubs do consider discussing about single player cheats a rule violation while others do not.

引用自 Crashed
As it stands the rules are ambiguous.
Broad, not ambiguous.
Crashed 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 6:35 
引用自 Tito Shivan
引用自 Zetikla
Not sure why ppl would make such a huge fuss over events that had a limited prize pool to begin with and with no guarantee one would have gotten anything out of it.
Cheaters during the last Summer sale didn't get any significative statistical advantage on earning more prizes than people who just dropped by and played a little.

引用自 MontyB
Short version: we should be allowed to discuss single player cheats.
Developers can moderate their forums as they see fit. Some hubs do consider discussing about single player cheats a rule violation while others do not.

引用自 Crashed
As it stands the rules are ambiguous.
Broad, not ambiguous.
Of course when one gets moderated they are referred to the Steam rules regardless of whether it was moderated from the main Community or from a game hub, and regardless of whether it was a global moderator (like you) or a game hub moderator or developer.
MB 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 6:59 
So, back to the suggestion, We aren't allowed to discuss any cheats. I don't see any good reason why we shouldn't be able to discuss single player cheats. The rules should be made clearer or changed so that good old fashioned harmless single player cheats can be discussed and shared.

It's entirely unclear for instance whether anyone is allowed to discuss 'console codes' some of which wouldn't be considered cheats and some of which would, it's fun to mess about with these things in single player games, some Easter eggs for instance can only be found by using console codes and exploring areas that you otherwise wouldn't be able to get to.
Cap'n Saccade 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:23 
"Cheaters never truly win and winners never get caught cheating"
.Teh_saccade 2018

----


Cheating in SP = cheating yourself, "acceptable".
Cheating in MP = unfair to cheat others, unaccptable".
Cheating in SP to use in MP games = cheating yourself and being inconvenient to others, because you are high level but not a good player.

(I've seen plenty of max level 25's die in hard in KF2, when legit 0 promotion level 20s are trashing the most difficult of maps, due to in-game experience, same as RO2 - that guy who always was getting all the kills, always getting headshots every time from 300m with a hip-fired machine gun - without the cheat, he sucked).

You forget to mention that - back in 8 / 16 bit days (and before... my first computer had 16kb of RAM):

There were no online multiplayer games - it was all on the same machine, eg, altered beast, super-bomberman (with the stupid LPT1 dongle protection), wacky races, pong...

I remember many magazines and games coming with sections on cheats, hints and walkthroughs - I even phoned the developers of Simon the Sorcerer, as that was their hintline for if you were stuck in that game.

"Cheating" in SP games like adventure games (eg, using UHS, universal hint system) or looking up a walk-thru, or cheating in SP games that are easy to "hack" using a simple memory injector to, eg, give god-mode or infinite ammo or - to take it to another level, activate the in-game developer console, as has been done with some older games

-----

Some newer Unity games, since Steam DRM wrapper doesn't really protect Unity so well - it simply tests if the Steam client is running, mostly copy-pasted.

This means, unless a Unity game is multiplayer, it is not so easy to "crack".

But we are talking about "hacks" - which, in most instances, are "cheat-tables" that are downloaded (or, rarely, made by the player to perform certain actions).

In a game such as clicker heroes - an automated mouse clicker might be considered "cheating".

In an offline game such as ... idk ... Civ - giving yourself extra money might be considered "cheating".

But the only person being cheated in these instances is the player.

In multiplayer versions of these games, or straight-up multiplayer - these cheats are often more obvious and VAC isn't so bad at picking up on script kiddies.

An individual might be banned from a game, if the server admin is policing it and notices certain hacks (eg, old-mod Day Z).

In Konami's MGSV, one player got into the top 50 players in the world using a simple memory injector - this was becase of the decentralisation of Konami's MP system to P2P and was their flaw.

----

People will crack and cheat, but - ultimately - these people who "cheat" at multiplayer games will never become good players and have a tendancy to have low boredom thresholds - and so move onto the next game.

The "cheat" designers' game is to make that aimbot or god-mode or mod or whatever in order to - usually make money.

In some instances, "hackers" have worked with - esp smaller studios - in modding or patching the game to make it batter.
I know a few instance of this happening.

----

The "cheaters" during the last summer sales were VAC banned, which is an automated system - they were simply doing things that VAC already knew were "cheats" and so banned them.

It is not often that Steam personell will become involved in such individual cases of "cheating" - unless it is cheating their marketing system for profit.


This is coming from someone who was involved with "the scene" since the late 80s.
GoG use a No-CD crack that has my // comment and attribution still in the .exe code...


IMO - anyone caught cheating in a multilplayer game ought to be notified that they are only allowed to play on servers with other cheaters (like Dark Souls' solution).

----

Back in the day, there used to be competitions in Quake Arena as to who could write the best cheats - and then play (or not play) the game to see who wins.

360 aimbot, rifleplasma spam, no clip kill everyone always.

It as an event. But these players also had the CODE (as in moral code) to not use these cheats in the actual game - half of the time it was because they were already awesome players and so were bored, half of the time it was because they were great programmers and good players, so were bored.

These days, many games require experienced (as in "my age") FPS players to grind through hours of repetitive and easy gameplay to get character upgrades, weapons and perks to make harder difficulty more accessible.

This is exceptionally boring. It is also annoying for Co-op games, such as KF2, to expect that gold level 25 to be the best player, but he's just another kid who got there by some simply hack.

----

There are many ways to obfuscate code and develop a games' code (or design) against such simple "hacks" and "cheats" but - like "cracks" - this is only a slow-down and not a solution.
(Try using a "cheat" or "hack" in ECHO).

Ask any Unity Dev who uses P2P multiplayer...
The game will be "cracked" and - if it is multiplayer - it can be "modded" or "cracked" with ease by someone with the slightest of knowledge and a few free pieces of software.


Same as the decision to pirate or pay (which has been partially solved by refund system and increase in number of demos -that used to appear on the front disc of every games magazine ever, some of which also contained trainers for games for players, eg, PCZone, PCGamer):

To cheat or not to cheat:

Ultimately - it's down the the player, not the game

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Guns don't kill people, rappers do.
Cap'n Saccade 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:27 
I'd like to add that "cheating / hacking" a game can totally ruin the game experience and make you never want to play it again, even if was only done because it would've taken hundreds of hours to grind those few maps and - despite taking a long time to figure out - was a small thing the developers hadn't thought of and so ended up being patched.

If a black-hat hacker turns grey or white - they can do a lot of good.

// anyone with a VAC ban gets dropped immediately from my friends list on Steam.
最後修改者:Cap'n Saccade; 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:27
cSg|mc-Hotsauce 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:27 
Devs/pubs are in control over what they think is considered a cheat for their games.

:qr:
Cap'n Saccade 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:28 
引用自 cSg|mc-Hotsauce
Devs/pubs are in control over what they think is considered a cheat for their games.

So ends the conversation.
MB 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:49 
引用自 cSg|mc-Hotsauce
Devs/pubs are in control over what they think is considered a cheat for their games.

:qr:


So what about a group that posts Auto-hot-key scripts for use in any game rather than 1 specific game, that's not covered by game-devs, that's covered by Valve. I personally think it should be allowed, often what constitutes a cheat is a grey area in single games.

Remove the pointless ambiguity and just allow discussion of single player game tinkering / cheating - one persons tinkering is another persons cheating and some people are absurdly anti-cheating these days because they don't understand the history of it and because they only know of cheating in multi-player games, cheats like wall-hacks.

Cheats can be non advantageous like make all NPC heads big, or console-fly in a walking simulator. Or cheats can be used to get past sections of game which are either too hard to complete for the player or simply too monotonous and the player would likely quit otherwise. If a person buys a game it should be up to them how they play that game (single-player) and there shouldn't be a ban-hammer hanging over anyone wanting to discuss that. Technically, there is a section on every game for cheats called guides. So really it is silly to on one hand solicit cheats whilst on the other hand threatening to ban anyone for discussing them.
cSg|mc-Hotsauce 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:51 
引用自 MontyB
引用自 cSg|mc-Hotsauce
Devs/pubs are in control over what they think is considered a cheat for their games.

:qr:


So what about a group that posts Auto-hot-key scripts for use in any game rather than 1 specific game, that's not covered by game-devs, that's covered by Valve. I personally think it should be allowed, often what constitutes a cheat is a grey area in single games.

Remove the pointless ambiguity and just allow discussion of single player game tinkering / cheating - one persons tinkering is another persons cheating and some people are absurdly anti-cheating these days because they don't understand the history of it and because they only know of cheating in multi-player games, cheats like wall-hacks.

Cheats can be non advantageous like make all NPC heads big, or console-fly in a walking simulator. Or cheats can be used to get past sections of game which are either too hard to complete for the player or simply too monotonous and the player would likely quit otherwise. If a person buys a game it should be up to them how they play that game (single-player) and there shouldn't be a ban-hammer hanging over anyone wanting to discuss that. Technically, there is a section on every game for cheats called guides. So really it is silly to on one hand solicit cheats whilst on the other hand threatening to ban anyone for discussing them.

Still up to the devs/pubs. Valve won't step all over them to enforce such a thing.

And the devs/pubs have a choice of anti-cheat services if they want.

:qr:
最後修改者:cSg|mc-Hotsauce; 2018 年 11 月 18 日 上午 7:51
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