Game's Updates and play restriction

[Pistola29]

I'd like to give an idea that I think everyone would thank the devs if they're able to do this, witch I strongly believe to be doable. I think steam should give us the option to play our games while the updates are still downloading. That would be so not a pain in the *ss, sometimes I can't play because the updates take just too much time so I get bored and spend my free time waiting on updates instead of playing and end up not playing at all, I believe it would help everyone to be able to play even with pending updates or while updating. As of yesterday I've waited on a No Man's Sky update for exemple and thought that at least today I would be able to play, and now at this moment it's updating again, I am spending my limited data and not enjoying it! Please look into this, and I thank the steam team for their atention.

[Start_Running]

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

Escrito originalmente por Start_Running:

At somepouint you will be booted out of the game because the update process needs to start replacing and modifying files.

They wouldn't need to do that, any more than Steam needs to boot you out of a game if it discovers an update for that game is available while you're playing it at the moment.

That actyually happens. It depends on how the devs set it up. Multiplayer games willl basically stop you from joining or hosting any games until you shut down and update.

And there's also the fact that in those cases the update process hasn't started yet.

Steam just has to wait until the game is closed to finalise the update.

That depends on how the update is structured by the devs.

[aiusepsi]

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

And so can all those other clients, oh! and your anti Steam bias is showing.

Uh, I don't care about other clients because I don't use them, so I don't care what they do. If anything, I have a pro-Steam bias. I've even contributed code to Valve's GameNetworkingSockets open-source project in my spare time because I'm such a raging fanboy.

Again you CANNOT play a game while it is been patched as files are in use and are locked.

You've not listened to anything I've written. The existing install is *not modified* while a patch is in progress, except for the very short commit phase at the end. The only thing which can't be overlapped with the game running is that commit phase.

Without owning it you can only assume it does what you believe it does and that is hardly a basis for solid ground.

There are tens of thousands of games on Steam, I can't own them all to check. But, I've never seen one use a different algorithm, and there is no documentation at all describing said varying algorithms, and the described behaviour is consistent with what I know about the algorithm.

So, there's two possible explanations:

1. there are multiple algorithms, but Valve doesn't describe them to developers in the documentation, and they happen to all be used in games I don't own.
2. There's just the one algorithm

Applying Occam's razor, the second explanation there is preferred. I could be wrong, of course. But proving something doesn't exist is tricky. Even if I bought Warhammer Total War just to investigate, anyone could come along and say, actually, there's another algorithm being used in another game I don't own.

There is no download then write and commit at the end.

I didn't say that writes are only at the end, I said that writes are only into the "downloading" directory prior to the commit.

[Nx Machina]

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

Uh, I don't care about other clients because I don't use them, so I don't care what they do. If anything, I have a pro-Steam bias. I've even contributed code to Valve's GameNetworkingSockets open-source project in my spare time because I'm such a raging fanboy.

Whether you care or not does not change fact that no client allows a game to be played when patching.

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

You've not listened to anything I've written. The existing install is *not modified* while a patch is in progress, except for the very short commit phase at the end. The only thing which can't be overlapped with the game running is that commit phase.

Oddly I never listen to something I am reading.

But lets explain. Path of Exile (external client), checks for an update, allocates space, downloads the update, reads the patch data, checks the installed data, writes, removes, old data inside the install folder. Think of it as copy/paste without the verify overwriting popup confirmation box.

Steam patches but it receives the data of how to patch each game from the developer.

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

There are tens of thousands of games on Steam, I can't own them all to check. But, I've never seen one use a different algorithm, and there is no documentation at all describing said varying algorithms, and the described behaviour is consistent with what I know about the algorithm.

And if you cannot check them then you cannot verify your theory that the algorithm overrides the patching of game setup by the developer.

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

So, there's two possible explanations:

1. there are multiple algorithms, but Valve doesn't describe them to developers in the documentation, and they happen to all be used in games I don't own.
2. There's just the one algorithm

Applying Occam's razor, the second explanation there is preferred. I could be wrong, of course. But proving something doesn't exist is tricky. Even if I bought Warhammer Total War just to investigate, anyone could come along and say, actually, there's another algorithm being used in another game I don't own.

Possibly who knows but from my experience each game is different. Some download the entire patch with minimum disc usage and others stop start.

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

I didn't say that writes are only at the end, I said that writes are only into the "downloading" directory prior to the commit.

From my personal experience, downloading, disk activity, reading, writing etc can all be independent processes. For Total War Warhammer, when download stops it is moving data and writing to the installed folder, before downloading again.

Hell we both may be completely off base or both on the right track and neither of us are completely right either way. But that is what discussion is for and opinions are all about.

[Start_Running]

End point is that it is technically possible rto update and allow play if the updatte is created in such a manner. NOt all updates are created that way though. and there's a reason for that, doing it in such a manner tends to actually create a fair bit of bloat in in the installer.

But the main issue here is really juust that games gonna update when they update. and once an update process is started pretty much things are off the table.

[Crashed]

Escrito originalmente por Start_Running:

End point is that it is technically possible rto update and allow play if the updatte is created in such a manner. NOt all updates are created that way though. and there's a reason for that, doing it in such a manner tends to actually create a fair bit of bloat in in the installer.

But the main issue here is really juust that games gonna update when they update. and once an update process is started pretty much things are off the table.

Usually DLC downloads are non-blocking; they can in some cases even get committed while the game is running, like I believe is the case for Halo MCC.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Escrito originalmente por Zekiran:

If a game is waiting for updates, that means something is either wrong with it, or there's an improvement / new code.

That doesn't mean the original is unplayable.

Escrito originalmente por Zekiran:

While a single-player offline game, sure, I can see "oh noes" (I play a lot of modded fallout 4, I know from singleplayer offline games getting difficult to play when it officially updates).

But for basically anything else, and literally all online games which have ANY kind of player-to-player interaction, including leaderboards even if it's a not-really-multiplayer game... They all must - absolutely must- be on the same version of the client and all properly installed.


You know this.

Actually, even multiplayer games here on Steam check version anyway.

But, let's turn this around. Games that require connecting to a server, or require connecting to other people playing the game, make sense to require updates for version harmonization as well as game balance.

But for basically anything else, updates should be declinable.

Escrito originalmente por Zekiran:

It cannot be played any other way. Even offline, even solo, it's an interactive mmo. And Must be updated.

If it has to be an interactive MMO, then it can't be played offline anyway...I don't get your wording.

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

No other CLIENT (GOG Galaxy, Blizzard, Rockstar, Origin, Epic) allows you to play a game been updated BUT others do love to point out the flaws (in their eyes) of Steam whilst EXCLUDING the SAME LIMITATION on other clients.

GOG Galaxy definitely allows playing a game that hasn't been updated yet.

That's because GOG's games are DRM-free.

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

As for modded games, the mods need to compatible with the game version, not vice versa and unless mods are official from the developer, there is no onus on them to test the compatibility of mods with the latest game version.

The mods can't be updated to the latest version until after the release of the latest version, so you are insisting on presenting a practical problems to players who use mods. You are again bullheadedly deeming there to be only one version of the game and forcing conformity while denying the fact that other people can have working older versions of the game installed which they can still enjoy.

At the very least, players ought to be able to delay the application of the game update until after the update to the mod has been released. This is what a way to decline updates can be useful for.

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

Play buttons being locked isn't an immutable fact of the universe. It's just software, Valve could change this for Steam.

And so can all those other clients, oh! and your anti Steam bias is showing.

Again you CANNOT play a game while it is been patched as files are in use and are locked.

Not while it's being patched. Before you blindly accuse others of bias, get your facts -- and your spelling -- straight.

Before a game is patched, there is a period of time during which the update has been released but has not yet been installed on to a user's local copy. This includes the time before the download and the time during the download as well as any time the game files aren't actually in use being edited.

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

And so can all those other clients, oh! and your anti Steam bias is showing.

Uh, I don't care about other clients because I don't use them, so I don't care what they do. If anything, I have a pro-Steam bias. I've even contributed code to Valve's GameNetworkingSockets open-source project in my spare time because I'm such a raging fanboy.

To some, anyone who takes the side of criticizing Steam has an "anti Steam bias".

[Nx Machina]

I really wish people would take time to read what was written and not make up what they want it to say. So to repeat with an explanation which should not be needed.

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

No other CLIENT (GOG Galaxy, Blizzard, Rockstar, Origin, Epic) allows you to play a game BEEN updated.

BEEN updated - patching is in progress.

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

As for modded games, the mods need to compatible with the game version

COMPATIBLE - the game HAS been updated - mods NEED to be updated.

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

Again you CANNOT play a game while it is been patched as files are in use and are locked.

CANNOT play while BEEN patched - patching is in progress.

[aiusepsi]

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

Steam patches but it receives the data of how to patch each game from the developer.

Not really, no. The developer points Valve's Steamcmd tool at the new version of the app content, the Steamcmd tool analyses it and works out how the new version is different from the old version, and uploads the changes to Steam. The documentation on this is here: https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/sdk/uploading

Some choice quotes from that documentation:

* Each file is scanned and divided into small chunks of about 1MB. If the depot has been built before, this partitioning will preserve as many of the unchanged chunks as possible.

* New file chunks are compressed, encrypted, and then uploaded to the MDS.

The new content system fixes this problem by splitting each file into roughly 1-MB chunks. Each chunk is then compressed and encrypted before being distributed by the Steam content system. If the game content has large redundant parts, these chunks are reused and the user only has to download each repeated chunk once. However, the real strength of this system is building efficient update patches. While the system is building a patch, the new content is scanned for already known chunks. If it finds them, it reuses them. This means if you change or inject a few bytes in a big file, the user only has to download the changes.

[Edifier]

I recall Blizzard Bnet allowing you to play Starcraft 2 I believe while it has downloaded a certain amount of files. But then you'd be playing without sounds or something else.

Otherwise windows itself doesn't like to edit files that are in use so if you where playing a game the files would be in use which would put a stop to that.

You'll just have to wait for the update to finish before you can play the game.

[Nx Machina]

Escrito originalmente por aiusepsi:

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

Steam patches but it receives the data of how to patch each game from the developer.

Not really, no. The developer points Valve's Steamcmd tool at the new version of the app content, the Steamcmd tool analyses it and works out how the new version is different from the old version, and uploads the changes to Steam. The documentation on this is here: https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/sdk/uploading

Some choice quotes from that documentation:

* Each file is scanned and divided into small chunks of about 1MB. If the depot has been built before, this partitioning will preserve as many of the unchanged chunks as possible.

* New file chunks are compressed, encrypted, and then uploaded to the MDS.

The new content system fixes this problem by splitting each file into roughly 1-MB chunks. Each chunk is then compressed and encrypted before being distributed by the Steam content system. If the game content has large redundant parts, these chunks are reused and the user only has to download each repeated chunk once. However, the real strength of this system is building efficient update patches. While the system is building a patch, the new content is scanned for already known chunks. If it finds them, it reuses them. This means if you change or inject a few bytes in a big file, the user only has to download the changes.

Version 1.0 is on the server, the new patch is version 1.5 and changes are uploaded to the server but that only explains uploading and building a patch, it does not explain the actual patching process and how it works on a per game basis.

Confused? Unreal, Unity, Source. All different engines with differing file, folder structures.

Lets take Pathfinder Kingmaker and Pillars of Eternity which both use Unity and have differing file structures. They patch entirely differently from each other.

[Nx Machina]

Escrito originalmente por Edifier:

I recall Blizzard Bnet allowing you to play Starcraft 2 I believe while it has downloaded a certain amount of files. But then you'd be playing without sounds or something else.

Otherwise windows itself doesn't like to edit files that are in use so if you where playing a game the files would be in use which would put a stop to that.

You'll just have to wait for the update to finish before you can play the game.

As far as i remember that only works if you are downloading the entire game BUT if it is patching the play button is blocked. Next time there is a patch I will check.

[Edifier]

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

Escrito originalmente por Edifier:

I recall Blizzard Bnet allowing you to play Starcraft 2 I believe while it has downloaded a certain amount of files. But then you'd be playing without sounds or something else.

Otherwise windows itself doesn't like to edit files that are in use so if you where playing a game the files would be in use which would put a stop to that.

You'll just have to wait for the update to finish before you can play the game.

As far as i remember that only works if you are downloading the entire game BUT if it is patching the play button is blocked. Next time there is a patch I will check.

I was able to check it right away as I haven't started Diablo 3 in over a year.

Could not play while it was patching. So this seems to be a feature when you just download the game.

[Nx Machina]

Escrito originalmente por Edifier:

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

As far as i remember that only works if you are downloading the entire game BUT if it is patching the play button is blocked. Next time there is a patch I will check.

I was able to check it right away as I haven't started Diablo 3 in over a year.

Could not play while it was patching. So this seems to be a feature when you just download the game.

Thanks for confirming.

[Start_Running]

Escrito originalmente por Edifier:

Escrito originalmente por Nx Machina:

As far as i remember that only works if you are downloading the entire game BUT if it is patching the play button is blocked. Next time there is a patch I will check.

I was able to check it right away as I haven't started Diablo 3 in over a year.

Could not play while it was patching. So this seems to be a feature when you just download the game.

Souinds legit. You can do the same with WoW. burt Blizzard specifically designs their games and their update methods to function that way. It's basically something that the uopdate creation, the game beuing updated and the platform delivering the update shave to be coded for.. and big surpruise..Battle.net only deals wwith Blizzacti games.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Escrito originalmente por Edifier:

I recall Blizzard Bnet allowing you to play Starcraft 2 I believe while it has downloaded a certain amount of files. But then you'd be playing without sounds or something else.

I recall Battle.net allowing me to play Heroes of the Storm with low-res textures while waiting to download high-res textures, too.

Of course, it still went ahead and downloaded the high-res textures, but ideally, I could skip out on that part too.