AGT_ZURU 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 8:52
Steam Policy for Games it Hosts: Loot Boxes and Crates
We've all seen it, Games with Random Loot Boxes and Loot Crates.

In specific Countries, these have been made Illegal, and this list is getting longer by the month. My Country applying these Laws in November later this year.

So, Game's companies have taken an approach of dodging the fines by making Loot Boxes that require an In-Game currency to purchase them. Bethesda's Elder Scrolls Online is one such example.


My proposal is that Steam, as one of the biggest and most popular Companies who hosts Games, takes a stand with the little guy. Thus Assisting in the enforcement of having these Random Drop Loot Boxes removed from Games.

It's one thing to have a Random Drop Loot Box that is earned as part of a Mission or Quest. However, when these then make their way into being Purchasable Items, that's where it crosses the line. That's Gambling for Children.

Personally, I take the responsible approach of checking a Game first, and if it has Random Drop Loot Boxes that can be purchased using real money, then I ban people from playing them. This means the Adults suffer the Ban too.

Effectively, if it's a Game that has Purchasable Random Drop Boxes of any kind, I immediately put it in the 21+ Category. Since it might as well be an Age Rated 21+ Game if it incorporates Gambling.


Recently, I've seen Companies such as WarGaming take the approach of selling a Product in two forms. Basically, (taking their latest Example), you can spend a few Pound and get Ultra Lucky for the Items... OR... You can pay £100 GBP for the usual Contents of the Loot Boxes, but without the Gambling.

While I'm in agreement that this is a start of an improvement, it doesn't fix the problem.

Ultimately, the fact that these Games have Loot Boxes means that they become Illegal in Multiple Countries. However, there needs to be someone who can enforce these Laws and Regulations. Without Enforcement, Laws stand without Substance and thus serve no Function.



So, Summary:
Steam should take a stand and give Game's Publishers Penalties and Cautions for having Loot Boxes in their Games. Those who continues to breach the rules get their Games removed. Simple as.
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目前顯示第 1-15 則留言,共 18
Edifier 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 8:56 
Valve is not going to hurt developers income revenue.

The players themselves can stop buying these loot boxes and companies will find other ways to get money.
AGT_ZURU 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:00 
引用自 Edifier
Valve is not going to hurt developers income revenue.

The players themselves can stop buying these loot boxes and companies will find other ways to get money.

That is just like trying to tell an Alcoholic not to Drink.
They need someone to help them enforce it.
If an Alcoholic wants to stop drinking, then they tend to need to go and get help.
That's the whole point of an addiction.

We've all seen Addiction can take hold more easily in children, so there needs to be some enforcement to help address this issue. For this, you need a big Company and/or conglomerate to do this.
Mad Scientist 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:02 
The respective companies are solely responsible for following the laws in the country they are sold. Steam is only the storefront, they allow the purchasing of the games license - that's basically it.

Penalties and other legal matters is between the developer/publisher or other responsible company and any one authority that manages said laws. Steam is not government nor lawmakers, so they are unlikely to do anything that is outside of their responsibilities.
AGT_ZURU 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:16 
引用自 Mr. Gentlebot
The respective companies are solely responsible for following the laws in the country they are sold. Steam is only the storefront, they allow the purchasing of the games license - that's basically it.

Penalties and other legal matters is between the developer/publisher or other responsible company and any one authority that manages said laws. Steam is not government nor lawmakers, so they are unlikely to do anything that is outside of their responsibilities.

The problem is, nobody enforcing the Laws.

You can still Buy and Run ESO, and have access to all of the Loot Boxes in countries where these are banned. I'm only using ESO as an example, others are doing it too.

The problem is, it's making Publishers a lot of Money, to such an extent that they won't enforce the Laws in those Countries.


The Issue is with the Large Companies that simply won't stop unless someone as big as they are stand up to them. By the way, Interpol isn't big enough, and is known for having issues with addressing Cyber Crimes across borders. Frankly, they don't have the resources to address this when they're dealing with more pressing issues.

Thus, if the Police can't enforce it, who will.
Brian9824 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:18 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
引用自 Edifier
Valve is not going to hurt developers income revenue.

The players themselves can stop buying these loot boxes and companies will find other ways to get money.

That is just like trying to tell an Alcoholic not to Drink.
They need someone to help them enforce it.
That is nothing at all like that. That would be like the beer companies telling resteraunts and bars how they have to ID people.

The various governments tell them how to enforce it.

Steam as a business isn't going to tell independent publishers how to build their games. That is the responsibility of the actual publisher.

if steam tried developers would laugh and if they made it mandatory they would leave steam for other platforms that do not control it. As long as the game breaks no rules it can be sold.
Brian9824 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:20 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
The problem is, nobody enforcing the Laws.

You can still Buy and Run ESO, and have access to all of the Loot Boxes in countries where these are banned. I'm only using ESO as an example, others are doing it too.

Then there are either 1 of 2 scenarios.

Scenario 1 - You don't understand the law, and the workaround they did makes it legal
Scenario 2 - The government of those countries isn't doing their job.

In both of those scenarios steam has no authority over it.


引用自 AGT_ZURU
The problem is, it's making Publishers a lot of Money, to such an extent that they won't enforce the Laws in those Countries.
Sorry but you have no clue what your saying, Publishers don't enforce the laws, the government and the regulatory agencies do. So if the laws aren't being enforced then talk to the government whose job it is to enforce them.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
The Issue is with the Large Companies that simply won't stop unless someone as big as they are stand up to them. By the way, Interpol isn't big enough, and is known for having issues with addressing Cyber Crimes across borders. Frankly, they don't have the resources to address this when they're dealing with more pressing issues.
Then oh well, Steam has no authority to enforce the laws of other countries anymore then you have the authority to.


Mad Scientist 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:27 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
The problem is, nobody enforcing the Laws.
Government entities love doing that so they get money they can spend on what they like.

:tank: Netherlands vs EA - €10 million; Loot Boxes
:tank: Three Korean game companies have been fined a total of nearly $950,000 for allegedly misleading players with their loot box practices. South Korea’s Fair Trade Commission
:tank: Class Action Lawsuit - a suit in the US District Court of Northern California; accusing EA of using their Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment patented technology across their EA Sports games. This includes Madden NFL, FIFA, and NHL as far back as 2017.

The lawsuit accuses EA of making the dynamic AI difficulty to encourage players to buy Player Packs; the games’ loot boxes. They claim that even players with high stats end up not playing as effectively as they should. The suit also states that if EA are using this technology, they are not disclosing it.


That's only a few, so clearly "nobody is enforcing the law" is not correct on a simple search engine result.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
You can still Buy and Run ESO, and have access to all of the Loot Boxes in countries where these are banned. I'm only using ESO as an example, others are doing it too.
That's not Steams problem, that's the Dev/Publisher or otherwise rights holder.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
The problem is, it's making Publishers a lot of Money, to such an extent that they won't enforce the Laws in those Countries.
Entities like fining companies, especially repeatedly, so it's unlikely nothing will be done so much as they will be fined into compliance, which will ultimately cost them more especially for EU based countries.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
The Issue is with the Large Companies that simply won't stop unless someone as big as they are stand up to them. By the way, Interpol isn't big enough, and is known for having issues with addressing Cyber Crimes across borders. Frankly, they don't have the resources to address this when they're dealing with more pressing issues.

Thus, if the Police can't enforce it, who will.
Police aren't responsible for video game laws, they have largely zero jurisdiction unless some law involved matches their jurisdiction such as swatting/doxxing etc. Loot boxes is not a police matter.

The responsible authorities is who you go to, not authorities that have nothing to do with it.
AGT_ZURU 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:29 
To enact change, sometimes you need someone with a bit more umpf behind them.

Either way, as things currently stand, there lies two problems.
The ones who should be enforcing the Laws of their corresponding nations, can't.
The ones who can enforce the Laws, won't.

By the way, you mentioned two scenarios for ESO, it's actually a third.
Bethesda are using a Workaround, this is ESO Coins, a currency that has to be purchased using real money. The Government's of those Nations simply don't have the resources to deal with the problem. They can fine the big companies all day, but those companies can afford the fines and thus won't stop doing what they're doing.
AGT_ZURU 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:32 
引用自 Mr. Gentlebot
引用自 AGT_ZURU
The problem is, nobody enforcing the Laws.
Government entities love doing that so they get money they can spend on what they like.

:tank: Netherlands vs EA - €10 million; Loot Boxes
:tank: Three Korean game companies have been fined a total of nearly $950,000 for allegedly misleading players with their loot box practices. South Korea’s Fair Trade Commission
:tank: Class Action Lawsuit - a suit in the US District Court of Northern California; accusing EA of using their Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment patented technology across their EA Sports games. This includes Madden NFL, FIFA, and NHL as far back as 2017.

The lawsuit accuses EA of making the dynamic AI difficulty to encourage players to buy Player Packs; the games’ loot boxes. They claim that even players with high stats end up not playing as effectively as they should. The suit also states that if EA are using this technology, they are not disclosing it.


That's only a few, so clearly "nobody is enforcing the law" is not correct on a simple search engine result.

Multiple Countries may have tried 'enforcement' but do you see those same companies changing a single thing... Nope.

EA's been fined multiple times for Loot Boxes, and they still offer them. I can still right now, go onto Battlefield, and buy a Loot Box, even from a country that has made them illegal.

That's not enforcement, that's just money talking.
Brian9824 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:33 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
Bethesda are using a Workaround, this is ESO Coins, a currency that has to be purchased using real money.
Which then makes what they are doing legal, aka scenario #1. The governments are free to update the law to close that loop hole but its legal.


引用自 AGT_ZURU
The Government's of those Nations simply don't have the resources to deal with the problem. They can fine the big companies all day, but those companies can afford the fines and thus won't stop doing what they're doing.

Then they keep fining them and keep making money off them. Your very confused on what is legal/illegal. If they are doing anything illegal the ONLY one with the authority to take action is the government whose laws they are violating.

Simple as that.
Brian9824 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:38 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
引用自 Mr. Gentlebot
Government entities love doing that so they get money they can spend on what they like.

:tank: Netherlands vs EA - €10 million; Loot Boxes
:tank: Three Korean game companies have been fined a total of nearly $950,000 for allegedly misleading players with their loot box practices. South Korea’s Fair Trade Commission
:tank: Class Action Lawsuit - a suit in the US District Court of Northern California; accusing EA of using their Dynamic Difficulty Adjustment patented technology across their EA Sports games. This includes Madden NFL, FIFA, and NHL as far back as 2017.

The lawsuit accuses EA of making the dynamic AI difficulty to encourage players to buy Player Packs; the games’ loot boxes. They claim that even players with high stats end up not playing as effectively as they should. The suit also states that if EA are using this technology, they are not disclosing it.


That's only a few, so clearly "nobody is enforcing the law" is not correct on a simple search engine result.

Multiple Countries may have tried 'enforcement' but do you see those same companies changing a single thing... Nope.

EA's been fined multiple times for Loot Boxes, and they still offer them. I can still right now, go onto Battlefield, and buy a Loot Box, even from a country that has made them illegal.

That's not enforcement, that's just money talking.


Yes, we see it all the time. For instance Valve and lootboxes - https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/1/20893490/cs-go-loot-box-x-ray-scanner-france

Made a change, doesn't really change anything for the end user but meets the requirements of the law

As for EA there is this thing called appeals. Most of the cases involving them being fined are being appealed and as thus nothing will be changed until the ruling is final. Again, a failure on your part to understand the law and what is happening in the cases.
Mad Scientist 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:42 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
To enact change, sometimes you need someone with a bit more umpf behind them.
Well that's not Valve.
They're a store, not a government entity nor lawmakers

引用自 AGT_ZURU
Either way, as things currently stand, there lies two problems.
The ones who should be enforcing the Laws of their corresponding nations, can't.
If the company didn't pay the fines, they would likely take more drastic measures.
Citations is the beginning, repeated behavior can and often does result in more drastic measures, there is a point where it's beyond unprofitable for a company to continually be fined, where such things cause losses with no profit.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
The ones who can enforce the Laws, won't.
Well, news shows otherwise. If a company wants to keep losing countless millions before more heavy-handed action is taken, that's fine with me

引用自 AGT_ZURU
Bethesda are using a Workaround, this is ESO Coins, a currency that has to be purchased using real money. The Government's of those Nations simply don't have the resources to deal with the problem. They can fine the big companies all day, but those companies can afford the fines and thus won't stop doing what they're doing.
Workarounds can also be made illegal if the essential purpose or nature remains the same.
The governments have plenty of resources to make it happen, they're just not going to focus 100% of their work towards one particular issue when they have much bigger issues to deal with.

To strongly emphasize;
Valve is a store, not a government entity nor lawmakers

Got a problem with something a company is doing? Message the actual authority with power to do something, the police have no power over loot boxes.
AGT_ZURU 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:47 
OK, just stop picking apart every last little thing.

This Post is only here for Valve to look over and consider. It's not here to start an Argument, nor is it here to be picked apart by other people.

This wasn't meant for discussion by other people, it's just for Valve to look at. There Support people told me to post it here, that's all.
Brian9824 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:50 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
OK, just stop picking apart every last little thing.
You mean the little things like the fact that lootboxes aren't illegal like you think they are?

引用自 AGT_ZURU
This Post is only here for Valve to look over and consider. It's not here to start an Argument, nor is it here to be picked apart by other people.
This is a USER forum, Valve doesn't respond here only users do.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
This wasn't meant for discussion by other people, it's just for Valve to look at. There Support people told me to post it here, that's all.

Support tells people to post it to the suggestion forum when they want to get rid of someone because they are bugging them with stuff they don't deal with. If you don't want people to point out the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY flaws with your ideas then don't post them on USER FORUMS.
Mad Scientist 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:57 
引用自 AGT_ZURU
This Post is only here for Valve to look over and consider. It's not here to start an Argument, nor is it here to be picked apart by other people.
If you want something only for Valve, write them a letter.
This is a user forum, once you post something it becomes a community discussion.

引用自 AGT_ZURU
This wasn't meant for discussion by other people, it's just for Valve to look at. There Support people told me to post it here, that's all.
I would recommend taking a look at the link to the forums:
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/
There's two important words there, which emphasize if you post here, it's a community section for discussion. Again, Valve is not the responsible party for your suggestion, there is nothing for them to do and Devs/Publishers would leave the platform entirely sticking to their own launcher only and their site only if they started dictating law, which is not their duty, onto said Devs/Publishers.

引用自 brian9824
Support tells people to post it to the suggestion forum when they want to get rid of someone because they are bugging them with stuff they don't deal with. If you don't want people to point out the MANY MANY MANY MANY MANY flaws with your ideas then don't post them on USER FORUMS.
Honestly they should just tell users when it is not their issue or jurisdiction.
最後修改者:Mad Scientist; 2021 年 8 月 21 日 上午 9:58
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