Controller tier list

[eqalidan]

on games where it says controller support, it would be nice to know up front how much of a controller I need.

can I use a retro controller (dpad, 4 buttons and possibly triggers, snes/genesis style)
do I need a modern controller layout (dualshock/xbox style)
for fighting games, how much of a fight stick is needed, I could use a keyboard to navigate menus but for just pure fighting, do I need 4/6/8 buttons?

Just controller support doesnt give me enough info

[nullable]

It's safe to assume an xbox/ps4 style controller which has been the basic format for nearly twenty years. Games may require fewer buttons sure, but it's not a problem using fewer buttons on a modern controller or switching to a retro controller if the game turns out to be simple enough.

If you're playing fighting games (seriously) I'm not sure any fighting games are clearly better with a standard controller over a fight stick.

And with a lot of games people will have strong opinions what's best is a matter of opinion. So here come the opinions the order is all wrong...

[eqalidan]

Origineel geplaatst door Brockenstein:

It's safe to assume an xbox/ps4 style controller which has been the basic format for nearly twenty years. Games may require fewer buttons sure, but it's not a problem using fewer buttons on a modern controller or switching to a retro controller if the game turns out to be simple enough.

If you're playing fighting games (seriously) I'm not sure any fighting games are clearly better with a standard controller over a fight stick.

And with a lot of games people will have strong opinions what's best is a matter of opinion. So here come the opinions the order is all wrong...

While yes, you can use an xbox style controller, I have several other 'older' styles that I have used for emulation, and there are new games, shovel knight for example, that are 100% playable on an older style controller, it would be nice to know minimum viability.

in terms of fighting games, I know there are diy solutions, one I personally use, that let me make an 8 button, but every now and then I see really nice controllers that have less buttons.

but let's take a game, let's say hollow knight. the way it looks I may be able to go with an older style but I can't remember if it requires more than dpad and buttons off the top of my head.

knowing what a game would require would let us make better choices on what we use, my xbox controller is a fall back if all else fails at this point, I use an 8bitdo sn30 pro+ as my xbox controller, but I would argue that the dpad on the m30 is better, and as a fighting game controller definitely better, though I would default over to my stick more often then not.

then even if we have a 'look at the game' mentality about this, going into an options menu for most games shows us entirely to many buttons, most of which are mapped to the same few buttons, so knowing exactly what's required is even more obfuscated.

especially with indie games, the delineation on what's needed would be very helpful.

[76561198407601200]

Seems like something the developers would have to start listing on their store page.

[eqalidan]

Origineel geplaatst door The Living Tribunal:

Seems like something the developers would have to start listing on their store page.

yes, they would but it would also need to be an option that steam has baked in for a developer to select.

classic controller (4 button) (very basic nes style controller)
classic controller (8 button) (snes style controller)
classic controller (9 button) (sega saturn style)
Modern controller (the dualshock/xbox style)
Fightstick (4 button)
Fightstick (6 button)
Fightstick (8 button)

I think these are all that matter because once you go passed a certain point in controls, even if there was a specialized controller for it, a modern controller would be the go do, and each of these classic but knowing ahead of time what you need to pull out as minimum viable would be nice,

[nullable]

And what about 3/6 button genesis controller and every other type of controller? What makes your list better than a simpler list or more verbose list.? And are you going to answer all the, "can I still play this game if..." questions?

I think you might be overestimating need/demand.

[eqalidan]

Origineel geplaatst door Brockenstein:

And what about 3/6 button genesis controller and every other type of controller? What makes your list better than a simpler list or more verbose list.? And are you going to answer all the, "can I still play this game if..." questions?

I think you might be overestimating need/demand.

on the need/demand, its less an 'I have to have this, why isn't this already a thing' and more of a nice thing to know. we have had my little brother over alot for various reasons, and it would be nice knowing if I have to break old controllers out to play multiplayer with him or if I can make due with with a simpler wireless controller I keep around.

as for sega controllers, the sega saturn style is the genesis style but as far as I can tell it has l/r buttons too.
The main reason for these specific controllers is outside of novelty ones, or lesser know systems like I believe jaguar, everyone copied nintendo and sega and by the time nintendo moved to analog the dualshock style was around and 1 gen later cemented what a controller needs to do, and it's not really worth a delineation there.

the way that I see it, there were 4 major controller designs, the nes simplicity, the snes, the 6 button genesis/saturn and the modern

what came in between these and modern were experimental designs that lead the way to the modern style, see n64 having a d pad, 2 buttons, 4 buttons that usually ended up being a pseudo left stick, and an analog stick. no one really ever wants to use a n64 controller and nearly everything is mappable to a modern style.

I won't lie, the saturn/genesis style could easily fold into the snes style, I just see it as distinctive enough to warrant a category of its own despite being interchangeable.

As for fight sticks, well... really any arcade style game but most people associate the arcade style with fighting games, and these are the common button layouts for the games in arcades, at least the common buttons used in game, not including things like selecting players, joining ect ect... I think with these 3/4 controllers and 3 sticks, it would cover anything a normal person would expect, and if you are doing something more exotic, like let's say using a steel battalion controller, you know you fall outside of what could ever be considered normal.

more or less, there is little need/demand, if you just want utilitarian 'it has controller support' its already there, this is more quality of life where it allows devs to tell us how complex a controller is needed

[nullable]

It's interesting from where I sit for you wanting to fuss over knowing offhand if you can use the simplest controller possible, but when I pointed out the genesis controller you dismissed it and said the saturn controller is like it, but with more buttons. Which kinda undercuts your argument because modern controllers are just like retro controllers, just more buttons (and analog sticks) which is what my original post was angling toward.

[eqalidan]

my argument with the genesis controller is simply this, we can make hundreds of delineations for every single controller ever made, and I believe genesis was 4 buttons, 3 thumb and a start, at first and latter on had a 6 button variant this went on to be the saturn controller.
the the genesis was 4, which is covered by Classic 4, the 6 button one is really 7, 6 thumb and a start, which is also covered by Classic 8, the Classic 9 is honestly something I would consider removable as its really only 1 button more then the snes style and I cant off the top of my head think of a game that is just one button short of playable on an snes style, my inclusion of it is simply because it is one of the 3 major styles pre dualshock/xbox as for dedicated fighting game controllers its still used as somewhat of a base if not a proof of concept that there is a market for it.

my dismissing of it also stems from the fact that when people seek out a retro controller to use with a converter, it is generally saturn that they look for along with just button amount falling in between two major jumps in complexity while not being what people consider the definitive version of it.

I do want to point out that me saying a console next to the the controller is for the convenience of us in this discussion, not something I would expect or even want steam to tell us.
classic would denote analog sticks are not needed and button number would tell us how complex of one we need.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Personally I use the following ways to classify controllers:

* FACE BUTTONS: The standard arrangement (SNES, PS*, XB) has 4 buttons arranged in a top/bottom/inner/outer configuration. An older/simpler arrangement (NES, GB) has 2 buttons. The Sega systems have 3- and 6-button arrangements.
* DIRECTIONS: D-pad vs. analog stick is the main distinction here. Some games may require two analog sticks, or two d-pads, but these are less common (aside from twin-stick shooters).
* SHOULDER AND BACK BUTTONS: the SNES gamepad was the first to feature a pair of shoulder buttons, but it's more common these days to have two pairs, plus a possible additional button on the back.
* SPECIALIZED: basically there are a bunch of gamepads with more specialized applications. These include flight sticks, "fight sticks", steering wheel and pedals, remotes (e.g. the Wiimote), joysticks (various styles), dance pads, and so on.
* OTHER EXCEPTIONS: the N64 and GameCube controllers both have some rather unique features, as does the Virtual Boy controller. Two of the CD-i controllers are also super odd.

[eqalidan]

not a bad idea, you could simplify it further by lumping all buttons into one and required movement method.

The only drawback would be it wouldn't be as clean to display
assuming you can use steam button mapper (it always fails for me) stating how many buttons are needed and what movement method is required would be more than enough.