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Lifell Jan 24, 2020 @ 1:06pm
Remove billing information from purchases
Apparently since the start of 2020 Valve needs to ask for billing information during checkout on payment methods that didn't need that before. If it's the law, there isn't anything I can really do. However, I do have a question regarding the fact that phone number seems to be required.

I've been on the internet for a long time and I never needed to give my phone number just to get past the billing information. Usually you can use your shipping address as your billing address which is logical. And for pretty much all online websites and services, a phone number was not required.

Why are phone numbers suddenly required to make a purchase on Steam? It's not part of the "billing" concept.

EDIT: This apparently has nothing to do with the law. So I'm replacing the original thread title "Remove phone number from billing information" with "Remove billing information from purchases". They just want all our info for no apparent reason. I checked other stores and none of them ask for anything even now in 2020. It's just Steam.

EDIT2: Steam has updated their support page (Thanks Danyael133!):

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6112-TDHB-4392&auth=99f0bf472b9f241cc83ba56baa54e257

Seems to not really provide much of an explanation, unfortunately. I marked RiO's post as the answer. This post by "Tokrar":

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/1745643248317303563/?ctp=9#c1753525161666029276

Is also a good one.
Last edited by Lifell; Feb 1, 2020 @ 2:28pm
The author of this topic has marked a post as the answer to their question.
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Originally posted by RiO:
Originally posted by brian9824:
Originally posted by Danyael133:
The support send me this Link right now:

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6112-TDHB-4392&auth=99f0bf472b9f241cc83ba56baa54e257

Yep, in otherwords as its been said its for tax purposes.

No queue up the handful of armchair lawyers that will proceed to google snippets of various tax laws and codes with no context to claim that they are actually violating the law......


I actually prefer to cite the relevant articles of law directly from the law text that Valve themselves are citing. To avoid giving everyone a headache while attempting to read it, I'll point you to the more user-friendly HTML version[eur-lex.europa.eu] of the same law text for reference. (Compare the document IDs if you won't take my word for it.)

And now without further ado, where it all starts is Article 24b - as Steam is covered by electronically supplied services:

Article 24b

For the application of Article 58 of Directive 2006/112/EC, where telecommunications, broadcasting or electronically supplied services are supplied to a non-taxable person:
[...]
(d) under circumstances other than those referred to in Article 24a and in points (a), (b) and (c) of this Article, it shall be presumed that the customer is established, has his permanent address or usually resides at the place identified as such by the supplier on the basis of two items of non-contradictory evidence as listed in Article 24f of this Regulation.

So, let's move on to Article 24f:

Article 24f

For the purpose of applying the rules in Article 58 of Directive 2006/112/EC and fulfilling the requirements of point (d) of Article 24b or Article 24d(1) of this Regulation, the following shall, in particular, serve as evidence:

(a) the billing address of the customer;
(b) the internet Protocol (IP) address of the device used by the customer or any method of geolocation;
(c) bank details such as the location of the bank account used for payment or the billing address of the customer held by that bank;
(d) the Mobile Country Code (MCC) of the International Mobile Subscriber Identity (IMSI) stored on the Subscriber Identity Module (SIM) card used by the customer;
(e) the location of the customer’s fixed land line through which the service is supplied to him;
(f) other commercially relevant information.


So, Steam legally needs only 2 items of non-contradictory evidence.
Out of those that in particular shall serve as evidence, they always have your IP address.
And for most payment methods, they always have the necessary bank details. EU bank account numbers that follow IBAN have two-letter ISO country codes in them. BIC codes carry the same information.


That's two points of data covered.

Valve only needs a third in case they need to rebute a presumption of a customer's location:

Article 24d

1. Where a supplier supplies a service listed in Article 58 of Directive 2006/112/EC, he may rebut a presumption referred to in Article 24a or in point (a), (b) or (c) of Article 24b of this Regulation on the basis of three items of non-contradictory evidence indicating that the customer is established, has his permanent address or usually resides elsewhere.


However, the presumptions in question are all based on physical location of the provided electronic service; on the service being tightly coupled to fixed equipment or a landline; or on being tied to a specific mobile phone and its SIM data.

None of these could ever apply to Steam as a distance seller of digital content access via the open internet, so there is nothing to rebute and there will not ever be a need for a third item of evidence.

Period. End of discussion.



That brings us to the GDPR[eur-lex.europa.eu]. Specifically; to article 5, which codifies data minimization and the fact that if a data controller has multiple ways available with which they can within reasonable means fill their needs - whether those be legal requirement; legitimate interest or otherwise - then they are obliged to use the means that result in processing the least amount of personal data. This is partly clarified in recital 39 as well.

Article 5 - Principles relating to processing of personal data
1. Personal data shall be:
(c) adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary in relation to the purposes for which they are processed (‘data minimisation’);

(39) (...) The personal data should be adequate, relevant and limited to what is necessary for the purposes for which they are processed. This requires, in particular, ensuring that the period for which the personal data are stored is limited to a strict minimum. Personal data should be processed only if the purpose of the processing could not reasonably be fulfilled by other means. (...)

Now, since Valve always have access to your IP address, because that's how your connecting to Steam, that's one item of evidence accounted for.

That leaves only one more. Valve usually also have access to bank account data via the payment transaction, or can get access to it with minimal effort. They'll either already receive it back via the payment confirmation sent to them from their payment provider, or they can query it from the payment provider, given a transaction ID.

So, only in the limited scenario where a payment method has no associated bank data, do they need to fallback on something else - like asking for a billing address.

In all other instances, the GDPR makes it so that they may not demand your billing address, because they already have other means available.



This doesn't quite cover everything though. Because even in aforementioned case of not having bank details available to them, they still can pick from "other commercially relevant information."

That term is not defined in the law text itself. But we can find its definition in accompanying explanatory notes[ec.europa.eu] as is usual with these type of complex directives:

9.5.1. What is covered by ‘other commercially relevant information’?

(...)

Some of the items which, depending on the circumstances under which the concrete business is conducted, could be used as ‘commercially relevant information’ are the following:

(1) Unique payment mechanisms – When a customer uses one of the methods of payment unique to a particular Member State, it provides accurate information identifying the Member State in which the supply was made. It could be taken as an indication as to where the customer belongs.
(2) Consumer trading history – When a customer has an established relationship with a business, records from prior transactions could provide a reliable indicator for future transactions. This information includes the historical IP address of the customer, billing address, place of predominant consumption, etc.
(3) Gift card point of sale – When a gift card is sold to a customer who is physically present at a retail establishment, it is likely that the customer will be local to the country in which the establishment is located.
(4) Country-locked gift cards – When gift cards are country-locked and can only be used in the country of issue (this restriction is stated clearly on the face of the card), the Member State in which the card is locked could be indicative of where the customer belongs in much the same way that a café or hotel that sells wi-fi access in a public area is treated as being the place of that customer.
(5) Documentation of third-party payment service providers – In many countries, payment service providers verify at least part of the billing address of a payment method before approving a transaction. Usually this information is not shared with the payment service provider’s customer (i.e., sellers of electronic services) for data protection and security reasons. However, when the payment service provider shares the information with the supplier of the service acquired, that information could be used as ‘commercially relevant information’.
(6) Customer self-certification – When the subscriber provides confirmation (e.g.within the online ordering process) regarding his country, his bank details (especially information where a bank account is) and credit card information, this could be taken to be ‘commercially relevant information’.

Interesting here are:
#1 which means the use of a payment method like iDEAL for Dutch people is in and of itself a valid item of evidence.
#2 which means repeat past access and purchases from a consistent IP address counts as a separate and second item of evidence next to the IP address of the current transaction.
#5 which means additional information not related to bank details that Valve may receive back from a payment provider - such as even part of (!!) a registered billing address - counts as an item of evidence next to bank details.

And finally, the big one - #6, which counts any active statement on the customer's part regarding his country; bank details or credit card information. I.e. Selecting your preferred store region; your preferred download region; etc. is an item of evidence as well.



Count all of these and there is absolutely no need for Valve to ever ask for a billing address.





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Showing 1-15 of 214 comments
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 3:47pm 
Absolutely a valid point. I was just coming to make a post on this exact same topic. I work at a company where payments are made and received on a daily basis. There is no law at all that requires phone numbers to be collected for tax or other purposes. At MAX what a company needs to know is State/County of residency and (only for card payments) address and zipcode (If paying with Steam Wallet the second should not apply).

Steam this is a blatant invasion of your customer's privacy. There is no reasonable explanation for needing your customer's phone numbers that I know of except to then sell them to third parties for even more profit. If this is not the case then please release an official statement with your real reasons as well as including citations of any laws that make asking such information mandatory. Otherwise your customers will have no other options but to believe that you are merely seeking our information for your own gain. Please do the right thing and remove this requirement from your purchase page.

Until this is resolved I will not be making any purchases from Steam and I would strongly advise everyone else (who does not wish to receive even more spam calls than we all already receive on a daily basis) to do the same.

P.S. Thank you Lifell for opening this discussion. It is an incredibly serious invasion of privacy that needs to be resolved and the rest of the community needs to be made aware of it.
Last edited by yugiyasha1; Jan 24, 2020 @ 3:47pm
#1
Hanomaly Jan 24, 2020 @ 5:07pm 
Gathering this information is a requirement by USA law where Valve/Steam is located.

The invasion of your privacy is something the USA government is now requiring larger companies to do for the purpose of verifying customers who live in the USA and making sure USA customers are paying taxes to the state in which they live.

i am not sure *why* the request for a phone number is part of it, but it is likely some part of the dumb new law enforcement too. However, Valve following the USA law shouldn't be seen as Valve being awful.. Is it better for Valve to ignore the USA law and get into big trouble with the government?
#2
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 5:12pm 
Originally posted by Hanomaly:
Gathering this information is a requirement by USA law where Valve/Steam is located.

The invasion of your privacy is something the USA government is now requiring larger companies to do for the purpose of verifying customers who live in the USA and making sure USA customers are paying taxes to the state in which they live.

i am not sure *why* the request for a phone number is part of it, but it is likely some part of the dumb new law enforcement too. However, Valve following the USA law shouldn't be seen as Valve being awful.. Is it better for Valve to ignore the USA law and get into big trouble with the government?

I have not heard of this law and I'm from the US, Also no other site I've bought from requires my phone number. Please cite the actual law the states this requirement and don't expect people to just take your word for it.
Last edited by yugiyasha1; Jan 24, 2020 @ 5:14pm
#3
Hanomaly Jan 24, 2020 @ 5:24pm 
Originally posted by yugiyasha1:
I have not heard of this law and I'm from the US, Also no other site I've bought from requires my phone number. Please cite the actual law the states this requirement and don't expect people to just take your word for it.

You have not heard of the USA having various tax laws in different states?

You haven't heard of how different states are coming forward demanding (LARGE) online merchants collect appropriate taxes from residents of their state, even when buying digital goods?

This has been slow building over the course of the last year or two in the USA.

But sure here are some links:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2018/12/23/sales-tax-online-retailers-begin-collect-internet-customers/2387450002/

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/322752

https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/21/states-will-be-able-to-charge-sales-tax-on-online-purchases-thanks-to-the-supreme-court/

You can look up other stuff about it yourself.

#4
Hanomaly Jan 24, 2020 @ 5:25pm 
i don't know that i posted the best articles, but you are free to google yourself as there are like literally hundreds of articles over the last year or so about this change.

You can also read the SCOTUS case that more or less started it all on Wikipedia or on the US Government page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota_v._Wayfair%2C_Inc.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-494_j4el.pdf
Last edited by Hanomaly; Jan 24, 2020 @ 5:27pm
#5
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:03pm 
Originally posted by Hanomaly:
i don't know that i posted the best articles, but you are free to google yourself as there are like literally hundreds of articles over the last year or so about this change.

You can also read the SCOTUS case that more or less started it all on Wikipedia or on the US Government page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Dakota_v._Wayfair%2C_Inc.
https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/17pdf/17-494_j4el.pdf
I actually am aware of the changes to tax laws and I did do some searching of my own, however I saw nothing about the government specifically requiring that large corporations collect phone numbers. I still do not think that that is a necessary method of verification.

Regardless, it is still Steam and any other big corporations that implemented this change without releasing a statement to explain the changes and assure customers that their information would not under any circumstances be sold to third parties. All you have to do is watch any news station and you'll hear that people are getting more and more fed up with all the robo-calls they are receiving daily. These are legitimate concerns that I and others have about our privacy. If you want to make your opinion known too then that is fine, but please leave the hostility out of it. You can voice your opinion tactfully without insulting someone else's intelligence in the process.

Also, I word searched every article you posted for references of "phone" and "number" and NONE of them mentioned that the websites are required to collect phone numbers. All they talked about was the fact that retailers are now required to collect taxes and that does not constitute forcing people to give up their phone numbers.
Last edited by yugiyasha1; Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:14pm
#6
Gambit-3k Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:06pm 
Originally posted by Hanomaly:
Gathering this information is a requirement by USA law where Valve/Steam is located.

The invasion of your privacy is something the USA government is now requiring larger companies to do for the purpose of verifying customers who live in the USA and making sure USA customers are paying taxes to the state in which they live.

i am not sure *why* the request for a phone number is part of it, but it is likely some part of the dumb new law enforcement too. However, Valve following the USA law shouldn't be seen as Valve being awful.. Is it better for Valve to ignore the USA law and get into big trouble with the government?
You are ignoring the very specific question only regarding phone numbers. I have no problem with the phone number, Valve has had my billing info for a long long time as I use a credit card for 99 percent of my purchases, and they already have my phone number for authentication and CSGO Prime (back when you needed a phone number for it). But it's true most online retailers don't require a phone number attached to your credit card or billing information.

Are you guys sure the phone number is required and not an optional field? I don't remember putting in my phone number with my credit card info with Valve, but I don't actually remember.
Last edited by Gambit-3k; Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:13pm
#7
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:18pm 
Originally posted by Gambit-3:
Originally posted by Hanomaly:
Gathering this information is a requirement by USA law where Valve/Steam is located.

The invasion of your privacy is something the USA government is now requiring larger companies to do for the purpose of verifying customers who live in the USA and making sure USA customers are paying taxes to the state in which they live.

i am not sure *why* the request for a phone number is part of it, but it is likely some part of the dumb new law enforcement too. However, Valve following the USA law shouldn't be seen as Valve being awful.. Is it better for Valve to ignore the USA law and get into big trouble with the government?
You are ignoring the very specific question only regarding phone numbers. I have no problem with the phone number, Valve has had my billing info for a long long time as I use a credit card for 99 percent of my purchases, and they already have my phone number for authentication and CSGO Prime (back when you needed a phone number for it). But it's true most online retailers don't require a phone number attached to your credit card or billing information.

Are you guys sure the phone number is required and not an optional field? I don't remember putting in my phone number with my credit card info with Valve, but I don't actually remember.

I'm positive. I tried to bypass that field when I attempted to make my last purchase and it wouldn't let me. It DID used to be an optional field but it's required now.
#8
Gambit-3k Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:24pm 
Originally posted by yugiyasha1:
I'm positive. I tried to bypass that field when I attempted to make my last purchase and it wouldn't let me. It DID used to be an optional field but it's required now.
Got it, thanks for the follow up.
Last edited by Gambit-3k; Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:24pm
#9
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:27pm 
Originally posted by Gambit-3:
Originally posted by yugiyasha1:
I'm positive. I tried to bypass that field when I attempted to make my last purchase and it wouldn't let me. It DID used to be an optional field but it's required now.
Got it, thanks for the follow up.
Sure. Thanks for your support too! This issue needs to be dealt with. Leave the field for customers like you who would like to input their numbers, but make it optional for customers like me who don't. Then everyone is happy and respected.
#10
Hanomaly Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:31pm 
emm in my original response i mentioned i wasn't sure about the phone number thing either... sooo... i'm still sticking with that?

i have seen some places that require phone number along with billing address, besides Steam (Macy's) when buying online. However i don't know that asking for that is specifically required.. and with my recent Macy's online order the phone number kinda made sense since it was for furniture... so it was possible for delivery purposes they might need to call me.

i am not ignoring the phone number thing at all. i responded to that in my very first response.
#11
Gambit-3k Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:32pm 
Originally posted by Hanomaly:
emm in my original response i mentioned i wasn't sure about the phone number thing either... sooo... i'm still sticking with that?

i have seen some places that require phone number along with billing address, besides Steam (Macy's) when buying online. However i don't know that asking for that is specifically required.. and with my recent Macy's online order the phone number kinda made sense since it was for furniture... so it was possible for delivery purposes they might need to call me.

i am not ignoring the phone number thing at all. i responded to that in my very first response.
Shoot you are right, I missed the last part of your comment. I apologize for jumping to conclusions after reading through parts of the back and forth. I should have been more thorough.

I still don't think phone number being required is part of any law, but if so I'm sure I'll start seeing it other places soon, but so far I haven't.
Last edited by Gambit-3k; Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:34pm
#12
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:39pm 
Originally posted by Gambit-3:
Originally posted by Hanomaly:
emm in my original response i mentioned i wasn't sure about the phone number thing either... sooo... i'm still sticking with that?

i have seen some places that require phone number along with billing address, besides Steam (Macy's) when buying online. However i don't know that asking for that is specifically required.. and with my recent Macy's online order the phone number kinda made sense since it was for furniture... so it was possible for delivery purposes they might need to call me.

i am not ignoring the phone number thing at all. i responded to that in my very first response.
Shoot you are right, I missed your entire *'d message. I apologize for jumping to conclusions after reading through parts of the back and forth. I should have been more thorough.
Actually, Hanomaly, you defended the invasion of privacy on Steam/Valve's part as included in what the government is requiring of websites when that doesn't appear to be the case at all. Then you got very snarky with me when I asked for proof of those laws so please now don't act all innocent now that you've been called out.
#13
76561198887146265 Jan 24, 2020 @ 6:59pm 
Remove phone number from billing information


I don't care if it's there, just don't force us to place our #N if we don't want to.

& don't give me some speech about it being there for a Security thing.



PS: All My Information Online is Fake, everything is Fake, the only things
that are not Fake, are things that are Required, & have a valid point of being
Required to be Real. I don't trust anything with all these so called Privacy stuff.

US Government, or not, I just can't agree to those terms.





So how many of you Disagree?
#14
yugiyasha1 Jan 24, 2020 @ 7:02pm 
Originally posted by Legendary Super Samus Starlet:
Remove phone number from billing information


I don't care if it's there, just don't force us to place our #N if we don't want to.

& don't give me some speech about it being there for a Security thing.



PS: All My Information Online is Fake, everything is Fake, the only things
that are not Fake, are things that are Required, & have a valid point of being
Required to be Real. I don't trust anything with all these so called Privacy stuff.

US Government, or not, I just can't agree to those terms.





So how many of you Disagree?
Not me! I do the same thing. I never post my real name (unless necessary), phone number, or birthday. It's just not necessary and the invasion into our personal lives by government or corporation needs to STOP!

Thank you Legendary Super Samus Starlet! Please tell all your friends to speak up here too! Privacy invasion won't stop until we as a community stand up to the people who are taking it away from us!
Last edited by yugiyasha1; Jan 24, 2020 @ 7:03pm
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Date Posted: Jan 24, 2020 @ 1:06pm
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