Jager 4 AGO 2018 a las 0:05
Refunds for abandonware / early access
Refunds on steam is great as they hold devs slightly more accountable, I would like to extend that for unfinished games.
We all got a bunch of games that are now abandoned and not undergoing active development anymore, still they go on sale every so often to trap more people, I would like either a glaring warning on the steam page next to the buy button as well as a possibility of a refund when the game hit abandoned ware state.
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Mostrando 1-15 de 77 comentarios
mimizukari 4 AGO 2018 a las 0:09 
hell , I'd like to refund DayZ too, but that's not how it works, first off, money is deducted from their next paycheck, if no one else is buying, where's the money come from? steam would take a big hit if tis was allowed. You buy because you're happy with the product as it is NOW, and you participate in the development to shape it more.... Although some games can be ruined from this process (imo rust)
Última edición por mimizukari; 4 AGO 2018 a las 0:09
Falsus Te Deum 4 AGO 2018 a las 0:40 
You mean the big blue box at the store page that you can't miss, that explains everything about EA games.
Then after you read that, check the reviews and the forum about the game to form a opinion.
Última edición por Falsus Te Deum; 4 AGO 2018 a las 0:42
Spanky 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:01 
Publicado originalmente por Jager:
Refunds on steam is great as they hold devs slightly more accountable, I would like to extend that for unfinished games.
I think so too. Devs, or publishers should take a bit more time, and consider how they can possibly consider that sticking with it is NOT important to everyone. How putting out a feeler, and not telling use it just is that, a demo. I made a point about that here Still though to speak, and do is a good sign who they say they are. Professional creators, and not creative hobbiest looking to see if someone will bite the bait. Then cut the line with the hook still in. Or cut the fins off, and tossed back into the water. Not going to survive like that.

Publicado originalmente por Jager:
We all got a bunch of games that are now abandoned and not undergoing active development anymore, still they go on sale every so often to trap more people, I would like either a glaring warning on the steam page next to the buy button as well as a possibility of a refund when the game hit abandoned ware state.

Yeah I agree with a warning. Like some bold highlighted thought that says "This creator has not been active for a long time. Suggest you take a second to look for some other stuff"[/i]/b]
Steam collects data, and can use it how they see fit. It's very appealing to see that a creator is still active in some way.:steambored:
Darren 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:12 
Publicado originalmente por New Base Zero-One:
Publicado originalmente por Jager:
Refunds on steam is great as they hold devs slightly more accountable, I would like to extend that for unfinished games.
I think so too. Devs, or publishers should take a bit more time, and consider how they can possibly consider that sticking with it is NOT important to everyone. How putting out a feeler, and not telling use it just is that, a demo. I made a point about that here Still though to speak, and do is a good sign who they say they are. Professional creators, and not creative hobbiest looking to see if someone will bite the bait. Then cut the line with the hook still in. Or cut the fins off, and tossed back into the water. Not going to survive like that.

Publicado originalmente por Jager:
We all got a bunch of games that are now abandoned and not undergoing active development anymore, still they go on sale every so often to trap more people, I would like either a glaring warning on the steam page next to the buy button as well as a possibility of a refund when the game hit abandoned ware state.

Yeah I agree with a warning. Like some bold highlighted thought that says "This creator has not been active for a long time. Suggest you take a second to look for some other stuff"
Steam collects data, and can use it how they see fit. It's very appealing to see that a creator is still active in some way.:steambored:

Most of the games people are claiming are "abandoned" and would like refunds on have often been updated in the last few months. DayZ and Rust have been pretty common examples in previous threads.

Now there are some games that actually have been "abandoned" but to be honest once a developer really doesn't feel there is any more they can do with their game they just release it. Those that are still in Early Access and have no further development it's usually the result of the development team having collapsed and no longer really exist at which point not really a lot you can do about it.
Última edición por Darren; 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:12
Spanky 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:17 
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Now there are some games that actually have been "abandoned" but to be honest once a developer really doesn't feel there is any more they can do with their game they just release it.

There are other options.
Darren 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:29 
Publicado originalmente por New Base Zero-One:
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Now there are some games that actually have been "abandoned" but to be honest once a developer really doesn't feel there is any more they can do with their game they just release it.

There are other options.

Not really. Logically once you've done all you can, you've got three options:
- Release the game in the state it's currently in accepting your limitations and being able to add it to your resume as a shipped game (even if a flawed one). If it's complete enough maybe you'll be able to stay in the game industry but probably not as the game will be used to judge you in your attempts to do future products (by both customers, and companies).
- Don't release the game and leave it in Early Access, you won't be supporting yourself off this game as a developer and you've now got it as a weight hanging around your neck on any attempts to stay in the game industry (customers hearing you are involved in the product are going to nope out of supporting it unless it's already a full release). Basically your development company is going to have to shutdown at this point effectively.
- Sell the IP for the game to some other company to finish. This is hideously unlikely unless you have a massive fan base since why would someone want to have to deal with your trash game otherwise? They can always make their own hopefully slightly less trash one instead :)

Obviously a company that is continuing to develop one Early Access game can release a second game in Early Access, but if you are abandoning your first game you pretty much have to release it if you want anyone to buy your second (as long as you keep updating your first while it's in Early Access you'll be able to get people to buy your second but as soon as people feel you have stopped you have to reassure them or release it to keep people continuing to be willing to buy any subsequent games).

Doing anything apart from the above is relying on your consumers (and future employers) being idiots incapable of doing basic research. Not a safe assumption for anyone wanting to make a living out of a career.
Última edición por Darren; 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:30
Spanky 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:43 
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Doing anything apart from the above is relying on your consumers (and future employers) being idiots incapable of doing basic research. Not a safe assumption for anyone wanting to make a living out of a career.

Just because every person is jumping into a life boat on a ship that's sinking, and you as a Captin "professional creator" can't do anything about the fire that the people don't need to be saved. It's the duty, and because the mass histaria, the Captin is jumping ship too, and doing nothing. The Hypocrite knows he's a hypocrite.
Darren 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:46 
Publicado originalmente por New Base Zero-One:
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Doing anything apart from the above is relying on your consumers (and future employers) being idiots incapable of doing basic research. Not a safe assumption for anyone wanting to make a living out of a career.

Just because every person is jumping into a life boat on a ship that's sinking, and you as a Captin "professional creator" can't do anything about the fire that the people don't need to be saved. It's the duty, and because the mass histaria, the Captin is jumping ship too, and doing nothing. The Hypocrite knows he's a hypocrite.

I'm sorry I have read that paragraph three times and I have no idea what that is supposed to mean, not even with the additional help of the context of the part of my post you quoted. Could you phrase it a little more clearly?
Última edición por Darren; 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:46
Spanky 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:58 
A Professional, if they are true Professionals will respect the duty to prove it. The consumers appeal with reflect that.
In fact, I don't rely understand your view. Can you provide some references?

Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Not really. Logically once you've done all you can, you've got three options
There are other options.
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Doing anything apart from the above is relying on your consumers (and future employers) being idiots incapable of doing basic research. Not a safe assumption for anyone wanting to make a living out of a career.
More hobbiests are relying on consumer inability to be diligent, and believe in the hype is out of this world view. I respect people and admire gutz.
Última edición por Spanky; 4 AGO 2018 a las 2:59
Crazy Tiger 4 AGO 2018 a las 3:21 
Theses "abandoned" games come with a major warning on the store page, a warning people somehow manage to miss. You know, that big blue box that tells people that the title isn't finished and may not change over the course of time?

Besides, who decides when a game is abandoned? The last few claims by people it was proven that said games received updates in the last month.

Publicado originalmente por New Base Zero-One:
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Doing anything apart from the above is relying on your consumers (and future employers) being idiots incapable of doing basic research. Not a safe assumption for anyone wanting to make a living out of a career.

Just because every person is jumping into a life boat on a ship that's sinking, and you as a Captin "professional creator" can't do anything about the fire that the people don't need to be saved. It's the duty, and because the mass histaria, the Captin is jumping ship too, and doing nothing. The Hypocrite knows he's a hypocrite.

It's his duty because it's a captain's job to ensure safety for his passengers. A video game developer has no such duty/job, he only creates content.
Darren 4 AGO 2018 a las 3:32 
Publicado originalmente por New Base Zero-One:
A Professional, if they are true Professionals will respect the duty to prove it. The consumers appeal with reflect that.
In fact, I don't rely understand your view. Can you provide some references?

Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Not really. Logically once you've done all you can, you've got three options
There are other options.
Publicado originalmente por Darren:
Doing anything apart from the above is relying on your consumers (and future employers) being idiots incapable of doing basic research. Not a safe assumption for anyone wanting to make a living out of a career.
More hobbiests are relying on consumer inability to be diligent, and believe in the hype is out of this world view. I respect people and admire gutz.

Ah I think I understand our difference of opinion now. Basically what I'm saying is those are the only options for Professionals, but I'm also assuming (in my opinion rightly) that hobbyists developing games are intending to go Professional with it otherwise they wouldn't be releasing them (they'd just be playing around with them on their own machines and leaving it at that).

My main reason for that is whether they intend to go Professional or not they are going to be treated as such when they release the game for money. People are going to expect certain professional standards from them and if they don't meet those standards that reputation is going to continue to follow them in future endeveours. For example I work for a financial trading company and we have a bunch of former game developers that have joined. Someone with a successful shipped game have something to show for their time in the industry and as a result is more likely to get employed especially as this shows things about their Professionalism (even if the product isn't perfect since most of our products aren't), meanwhile someone that has abandoned a game in Early Access is going to have questions raised during their interview about their Professionalism and is less likely to get a role, if they've got I was a Game Developer for 3 years and no projects, or products at all they are likely not even going to get an interview.

My view builds off these facts above:
- Games Development takes time, this time will impact your resume somewhere whether or not you continue in Game Development. Even if you do it as a side project it's going to result in impacts to doing your actual work (trust me I've done side projects before, career work in software developer is too involved to save much for your side projects without impacting your actual career).
- Hobbyist or professional once you put a game up for money you are going to be treated as a professional by your consumers as well as by any future employers, you'll need to act as such otherwise you will impact your future hireability.
- When I'm looking at resumes for people transitioning from games development to my industry I'm going to judge them on their shipped projects (and lingering projects will impact my decision much more negatively then if they were a professional and cut a release even if it wasn't all they hoped for at the time), if they don't have any then I'm going to be judging them on that lack (what did they spend those years doing if they have nothing to show for it).
Spanky 4 AGO 2018 a las 3:46 
Publicado originalmente por patje.lol:
It's his duty because it's a captain's job to ensure safety for his passengers. A video game developer has no such duty/job, he only creates content.
@Darren
Developer or publisher has some contract. Contract that is binding too. Consumers are the end user that expects it out of the Professional to continue to engage in a professional manner. If creator see she will not continue, and just leaves abandoning projects for some better pay is not reasonable, and lakes more thought. In terms a legality, we are in different areas in life, and in country, so why make it "the content" in the first place, and available worldwide? How can that be logical? One thinks of poor diligence in the Professional. It makes the Professional actually a creative hobbies looking to make money. A False belief? A Massive popular opinion?

Última edición por Spanky; 4 AGO 2018 a las 3:47
Darren 4 AGO 2018 a las 4:02 
Publicado originalmente por New Base Zero-One:
Publicado originalmente por patje.lol:
It's his duty because it's a captain's job to ensure safety for his passengers. A video game developer has no such duty/job, he only creates content.
@Darren
Developer or publisher has some contract. Contract that is binding too. Consumers are the end user that expects it out of the Professional to continue to engage in a professional manner. If creator see she will not continue, and just leaves abandoning projects for some better pay is not reasonable, and lakes more thought. In terms a legality, we are in different areas in life, and in country, so why make it "the content" in the first place, and available worldwide? How can that be logical? One thinks of poor diligence in the Professional. It makes the Professional actually a creative hobbies looking to make money. A False belief? A Massive popular opinion?

I don't disagree on any particular point (except the contract part, because the contract to the consumer is limited by Steams Terms of Service and Early Access notice to be the product at the time of sale and any updates that eventuate of which there may be none), hence why as I said such things would be negatively reflected in my views should I be hiring a person that has abandoned projects before. However there are caveats as well.

People aren't slaves, and are allowed to leave companies at any time to seek further employment. Should all the employees leave a company the founder of the company would be hard pressed to finish it (and may not be able to). This puts the founder in a tricky situation but one he should handle professionally if he wants his reputation to remain intact.

Projects get adjusted all the time in the corporate world when resourcing changes, this can mean feature reductions, or even termination of the project, but these things need to be handled appropriately and transparently.

Also it's possible to behave completely professionally but still have a project flop. That's okay these things happen to everyone, but there are behaviours that need to be demonstrated during them (such as good communication, and transparency when situations change) that mark out the professionals, from those whose reputations are going to be negatively impacted by these projects.
Start_Running 4 AGO 2018 a las 4:11 
Publicado originalmente por Jager:
Refunds on steam is great as they hold devs slightly more accountable, I would like to extend that for unfinished games.
Uh-Oh. Someone didn't actually read the Early Access faq or the Blue box.
You can refund early access games, those refunds are the same terms as everything else. 2 weels & 2 hours. Might surprise you to know that when you buy an early access game you are buying an unfinished game. As in that's the only thing the developer is obligated to deliver. The unfinsihed game. ANything beyond is essentially bonus content.


Publicado originalmente por Jager:
We all got a bunch of games that are now abandoned and not undergoing active development anymore,
Yes because eventually the game is finished. As in done, as in completed. That's not abandoned that's just completed.

Publicado originalmente por Jager:
still they go on sale every so often to trap more people, I would like either a glaring warning on the steam page next to the buy button as well as a possibility of a refund when the game hit abandoned ware state.

Abandonware doesn't exist, though its nice to see people trying to redefine the term. Again. A game not being developed is called 'finished'. They don't keep cooking and adding toppings to a pizza after they deliver it to you do they? No. Because its done.

Darren 4 AGO 2018 a las 4:22 
Publicado originalmente por Start_Running:
Publicado originalmente por Jager:
Refunds on steam is great as they hold devs slightly more accountable, I would like to extend that for unfinished games.
Uh-Oh. Someone didn't actually read the Early Access faq or the Blue box.
You can refund early access games, those refunds are the same terms as everything else. 2 weels & 2 hours. Might surprise you to know that when you buy an early access game you are buying an unfinished game. As in that's the only thing the developer is obligated to deliver. The unfinsihed game. ANything beyond is essentially bonus content.


Publicado originalmente por Jager:
We all got a bunch of games that are now abandoned and not undergoing active development anymore,
Yes because eventually the game is finished. As in done, as in completed. That's not abandoned that's just completed.

Publicado originalmente por Jager:
still they go on sale every so often to trap more people, I would like either a glaring warning on the steam page next to the buy button as well as a possibility of a refund when the game hit abandoned ware state.

Abandonware doesn't exist, though its nice to see people trying to redefine the term. Again. A game not being developed is called 'finished'. They don't keep cooking and adding toppings to a pizza after they deliver it to you do they? No. Because its done.

Well there is one game I would term abandoned. But as I said that's because the developers basically no longer exist as an entity. Not a lot they, Valve, or us can do at that point.
Última edición por Darren; 4 AGO 2018 a las 4:23
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