Right-To-Left Languages Support in Chat

[Rome]

My idea is quite simple: Implement RTL support in the chat client.
That will solve text in Hebrew, Arabic, and other RTL languages showing up in reverse and will be a huge improvement to the user experience for us RTL-ers.

Nothing in the application itself needs to change. No UI needs to be mirrored. Nothing has to be translated. Just make it so that words are displayed in the proper order even when mixed with punctuation, symbols or numbers, and not backwards.

This is such a simple and basic feature, implemented basically everywhere, I think it's nearly-morally required on such a great, world-wide service.

Please, show your support for this idea so the development team will see and prioritize RTL support!

[moltyhero]

So basic how it is not implemented yet

[Satoru]

moltyhero님이 먼저 게시:

So basic how it is not implemented yet

Because its not basic. Hell even UE4 'only kinda sorta' supports RTL

Try using twitter and copy and paste some stuff from an RTL version of wikipedia. The results are hilariously bad

https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/1107401010295668736

Hey I wonder if AAA studios wtih budets the size of small island nations can get basic RTL signage correct. Or if giant movie studios with movie budgets in the hundreds of millions can get it right? or giant multi national corporations doing marketing in Arabic?

NOPE

https://nopenotarabic.tumblr.com/

The idea that this is 'easy' kinda ignores like literally all the problems RTL has with basically any app made anywhere even if it supports unicode. A lot of issues are even with middleware as even if you try very veyr hard to do stuff to support RTL, your middleware platform can jsut go "wtf is this Im just gonna crash and lie down now." Then what can you do?

I mean sure we're definitely in a better place since unicode exists, but the idea that RTL is 'universally' done correctly is basically false, and saying its 'easy' kinda really doesnt show the massive amounts of problems that RTL languages currently face.

I certainly hope we can get RTL to the same place as CKJ is right now. Because LORDY LORDY CJK was a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ mess to deal with 10 years ago. A mish mash of conflicting "non standards", browser plugins that 'kinda' worked, OS support non-existent, etc.

One day we can hopefully look back and wonder "man why was RTL support so hard to deal wtih" but that day isn't now and the problems people have to deal with to get RTL to work are real.

[Rome]

Satoru님이 먼저 게시:

moltyhero님이 먼저 게시:

So basic how it is not implemented yet

The idea that this is 'easy' kinda ignores like literally all the problems RTL has with basically any app made anywhere even if it supports unicode.
(other explanations that RLT support is hard)

Well, pretty much everything I've seen supports it. Obviously the big boys like Facebook, Google/Android, Microsoft, Apple etc., but also freeware applications like VLC, Wordpress, and more.
If this was a completely unique use-case, then it was probably more complicated. But it has been done on so many occasions on so many platforms, and it's just the chat window (not the entire application) that needs to be supported, it seems like it's very do-able.

RTL languages cover over a billion people on the planet. Seems logical to issue support for them. No need to be negative, I'm sure Steam's developers are very bright and can surely get it done.
If the guys developing Opera, or hell, that one dude in the basement who created Minecraft, could all do it - I am certain that a huge company like Steam can do it. It's a matter of decision, not ability.

[Washell]

Rome님이 먼저 게시:

RTL languages cover over a billion people on the planet.

Planet ≠ Steam shoppers.
https://store.steampowered.com/stats/content/

[Rome]

Washell님이 먼저 게시:

Rome님이 먼저 게시:

RTL languages cover over a billion people on the planet.

Planet ≠ Steam shoppers.
https://store.steampowered.com/stats/content/

It's very clear Steam has shoppers and users across all the RTL world (Arabic-speaking countries, Iran etc.). Tiny Israel alone is one of the "green" countries, measuring alongside some first-class European countries in total usage.

Look, it's not costing YOU any money, and it won't hurt YOU if RTL was supported. Let us ask for this feature and if you don't care whether or not it exists, don't try to ruin it for people who do.

[Satoru]

Rome님이 먼저 게시:

Well, pretty much everything I've seen supports it. Obviously the big boys like Facebook, Google/Android, Microsoft, Apple etc., but also freeware applications like VLC, Wordpress, and more.
If this was a completely unique use-case, then it was probably more complicated. But it has been done on so many occasions on so many platforms, and it's just the chat window (not the entire application) that needs to be supported, it seems like it's very do-able.

RTL languages cover over a billion people on the planet. Seems logical to issue support for them. No need to be negative, I'm sure Steam's developers are very bright and can surely get it done.
If the guys developing Opera, or hell, that one dude in the basement who created Minecraft, could all do it - I am certain that a huge company like Steam can do it. It's a matter of decision, not ability.

Again

https://twitter.com/tha_rami/status/1107401010295668736

Try this and tell me what happens

99% of the time this will break

This isnt even an edge case its literally just 'copy and paste a url breaks entirely'

https://support.discordapp.com/hc/en-us/community/posts/360030086752-Add-Right-to-Left-RTL-support-to-Discord

Even discord doesnt support RTL properly and does bizarre things

There is tons of stuff on the internet that doesnt work with RTL especially true of middleware platforms.

Is RTL support better than before? yes

Is RTL support anywhere it needs to be? no

Is RTL support hard? Yes

[Rome]

Satoru님이 먼저 게시:

Even discord doesnt support RTL properly and does bizarre things

There is tons of stuff on the internet that doesnt work with RTL especially true of middleware platforms.

You just linked to a page where it specifically said that adding RTL support is just 1 line of code. I imagine it's a lot more in Steam, but they can do it, it's not impossible. Fact, when a company decides to support it, it works great (like VLC).
Here's a Mozilla developer explaining how to easily add RTL support. He even goes to lengths and explains how to mirror the UI, which is not even necessary in the Steam Chat, since nothing in the UI changes and only the text displayed should be RTL-compatible. https://hacks.mozilla.org/2015/09/building-rtl-aware-web-apps-and-websites-part-1/


Again, if you don't mind for RTL support, just go do something else. Don't try and dismiss other people's requests like you're the company CEO or something. Just don't comment if you're not supportive.

[Washell]

Rome님이 먼저 게시:

Look, it's not costing YOU any money, and it won't hurt YOU if RTL was supported. Let us ask for this feature and if you don't care whether or not it exists, don't try to ruin it for people who do.

What I should have made very clear: this isn't an argument from my end against implementing it. It's an (possible) explanation why Valve is dragging their heels doing this. This request has popped up again and again in the past 9+ years I've been on steam.

Rome님이 먼저 게시:

Tiny Israel alone is one of the "green" countries, measuring alongside some first-class European countries in total usage.

Indeed, tiny. 8.7 million people there. So the number of Israelis that actively use chat and the future RTL function is not very significant.

Valve is data driven when it comes to deciding what to do and implement. And from where I'm sitting, the data isn't very much in favor of spending the time and resources.

[Satoru]

The Mozilla blog goes into great detail about the necessity of creating custom UI and understanding RTL elements when making your UI. The “automated” stuff gets your some of the way there but again RTL is not easy especially if you’re already way down the dev curve and want to pull in UI/UX people on top of the fact that you have to find programmers that even understand the problem at all which you might not even have in house expertise or like anyone who reads RTL at all

This problem isn’t easy and there are a ton of obstacles right now. It’s getting better but claiming it’s easy just further enforces the myth and ignores the fact that any program today is a sum of hundreds of parts any one of which can be a problem with RTL even if the underlying code supports Unicode


Look maybe you’re kinda confused about what my point is

1) you should continue to advocate for RTL support
2) BUT you should also understand RTL support is hard for a lot of reasons that can be outside the control of the devs so claiming it’s “easy” is akin to claiming fixing a game bug is “easy” without access to the source code

[Rome]

Satoru님이 먼저 게시:

The Mozilla blog goes into great detail about the necessity of creating custom UI and understanding RTL elements when making your UI. The “automated” stuff gets your some of the way there but again RTL is not easy especially if you’re already way down the dev curve and want to pull in UI/UX people on top of the fact that you have to find programmers that even understand the problem at all which you might not even have in house expertise or like anyone who reads RTL at all

This problem isn’t easy and there are a ton of obstacles right now. It’s getting better but claiming it’s easy just further enforces the myth and ignores the fact that any program today is a sum of hundreds of parts any one of which can be a problem with RTL even if the underlying code supports Unicode


Look maybe you’re kinda confused about what my point is

1) you should continue to advocate for RTL support
2) BUT you should also understand RTL support is hard for a lot of reasons that can be outside the control of the devs so claiming it’s “easy” is akin to claiming fixing a game bug is “easy” without access to the source code

Did you not read anything? There's no need for any UI changes. Just the Chat text box.
I never said the implementation was easy-peasy. But it's do-able, so I'm adovcating for it. Let the developers decide if it's too much of a hassle or not.