How about a Neutral review rating?

[BONKERS]

I'm sure it's been mentioned a million times.
But there are tons of games that are not a simple "Yes" or "No". Games in between, games that might not be as good. Or games that are good, but are marred by technical issues. (I'd really not want to no vote games just because they have technical issues that the publisher refuses to acknowledge or fix. I'd rather give the game a "Neutral" recommendation.).

It's like politics almost, except you are not allowed to be a moderate, or anything but Democrat or Republican and you have to vote to the extreme of which side you are affiliated.


It'd also be nice if people who purchase outside of Steam stop being punished for trying to get a better deal on prices. Every review, even all the joke or no effort reviews, should count towards the score. There's more to it than just whether the game was worth full retail price.
Not counting all just because a select few abused the system is not the right way to go about it.

[Start_Running]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Radene:

Since the ability to recommend or not already exists in that neat little thing you mentioned, so why not go all the way and do away with the thumbs up/down thing too.

Simple. It'd be impossible to create an aggregate score. Well, impossible in a cost effective way.

See, your opinion is no more relevant than anyone else's and your word carries no more weight. I know it's hard to accept that you're just as irrelevant as the next guy, but that's how it is.

Relevant enought to be worth your time apparently.

And so far, and it has been a while, has it not, months by now, you've done nothing to offer a compelling argument for why any change to the review system would make it worse, other than, of course, maintaining how you're right and everybody else isn't.

But I have. I've actually, in other threads given mathematical and logistical evidence. SO, sweetie, why don't you just sit down and let the grown ups talk hmm? Or perhaps do a little more research.

Long story short. Neutral doesn't do anything but dilute. It'd be like adding water to american beer. Sure it might make it more accessible to some people (it'd probably qualify as non-alchoholic at that point) but that doesn't mean it'd make it better for anyone. Worse I know the next thing they'd complain about would be that the character limit is too small for the thesis they're trying to pass off as a review.

I mean I give Quint credit for at least always giving my brain a poke or some new angle. Hence why I enjoy those little sparring sessions.

[Radene]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Simple. It'd be impossible to create an aggregate score. Well, impossible in a cost effective way.

This isn't metacritic and I doubt it was ever meant to be.

Relevant enought to be worth your time apparently.

What can I say, some days are slow and boring. Don't give yourself too much credit.

But I have. I've actually, in other threads given mathematical and logistical evidence. SO, sweetie, why don't you just sit down and let the grown ups talk hmm? Or perhaps do a little more research.

Pft. Cute. Obviously calling me a kid means my position has been thoroughly demolished. Wish I learned this sooner, that ad hominem is the way to go.

That "evidence" you speak of was you telling people they are wrong if they don't agree with you.

On topic of "research", well, let's just say that maybe you need to be the change you want to see in the world.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Radene:

Since the ability to recommend or not already exists in that neat little thing you mentioned, so why not go all the way and do away with the thumbs up/down thing too.

Simple. It'd be impossible to create an aggregate score. Well, impossible in a cost effective way.

I'll repost my formula from the last time we had discussed this topic.

Let
P = positive reviews
N = negative reviews
M = mixed reviews

Current formula: userscore = P / (P+N)

New formula: userscore = (P+0.5M) / (P+M+N)

If carrying a few numbers makes for an unacceptable burden on a computer system, then...okay, maybe I wouldn't be too surprised since last I heard the Steam client was still using text rendering code (specifically a hardcoded workaround) from the 90s hence their problem with zalgotext causing the thing to crash.

(Which would hardly be a reason to keep something in the long term.)

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

And so far, and it has been a while, has it not, months by now, you've done nothing to offer a compelling argument for why any change to the review system would make it worse, other than, of course, maintaining how you're right and everybody else isn't.

But I have. I've actually, in other threads given mathematical and logistical evidence. SO, sweetie, why don't you just sit down and let the grown ups talk hmm? Or perhaps do a little more research.

And how do I have any sign that you're a "grown up" when you post none of it?

The strongest line of reasoning you have is that it might slightly annoy you because you have seem to have a persistent bias against people who want to post neutral reviews, having accused them of wanting to please crowds by being wishy-washy, as opposed to giving them a fair shake and assuming they have something meaningful to say just like everyone else. Sure, you might not find them useful, but...do you find every review useful today?

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Long story short. Neutral doesn't do anything but dilute. It'd be like adding water to american beer.

FYI, analogies are not proof.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Sure it might make it more accessible to some people (it'd probably qualify as non-alchoholic at that point) but that doesn't mean it'd make it better for anyone.

Going by your analogy, maybe someone would prefer the flavor, or prefer the lower alcohol content. Who knows. Maybe you care for alcohol content in your beverage but not everyone does.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Worse I know the next thing they'd complain about would be that the character limit is too small for the thesis they're trying to pass off as a review.

As of right now the character review is more than enough to fit a standard-length 500-ish word essay, and I see no reason to change it.

You're just trying to strawman mixed reviews as being too wordy. You've expressed your distaste for wordy reviews before. Well, they're a matter of taste. I prefer the wordier ones and I find the shorter ones useless. How about that.

And with a new system, it's not like everyone will suddenly change their reviews to neutral, because people don't write reviews to crowd-please, unlike what you contend. First, all the existing positive and negative reviews will continue to exist (except in the few cases when people want to change them, which for me would be one, maybe two, of my currently 35 reviews).

And since positive and negative options will continue to be available, people will continue to write both of those too. If you want to just look at the numbers for those two, then take P and N from the reviews section of the store page and you can re-create the old review score with a basic four-function calculator.

[Kartoffelsuppe]

I wouldn't call them reviews, they are personal recommendations. A thoroughly review can't give a clear yes or no in 90% of cases since it looks at all perspectives.

I like the system how it is because we don't need hundreds of "objective" reviews that change the overall score in some way (for the worse most likely). Maybe give people the option to write a review without a rating that also doesn't get included in the score and has it's own tab so you can look at it fast.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Glowing Bitter Oyster:

I'll repost my formula from the last time we had discussed this topic.

Let
P = positive reviews
N = negative reviews
M = mixed reviews

Current formula: userscore = P / (P+N)

New formula: userscore = (P+0.5M) / (P+M+N)

P + M (0.5M) doesn't make sense since M is neutral; that would hurt the statistics.

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Diposting pertama kali oleh lolibus:

I wouldn't call them reviews, they are personal recommendations. A thoroughly review can't give a clear yes or no in 90% of cases since it looks at all perspectives.

I like the system how it is because we don't need hundreds of "objective" reviews that change the overall score in some way (for the worse most likely). Maybe give people the option to write a review without a rating that also doesn't get included in the score and has it's own tab so you can look at it fast.

Well, at least you're cutting to the chase and simply saying that you don't want a "review".

I don't see how the scores would make it worse, and frankly speaking, because Steam users are mostly not professional reviewers but just gamers as a hobby, most people will only bother to write reviews when they actually have some sort of interesting opinion on the game.

That said, I like your idea for the option to write a review without a rating, that doesn't get included in the score. I'm fine with that arrangement too, as long as -- like you suggest -- there's an easy way to see these no-rating reviews.

For what it's worth the system used to use the term "recommendation" rather than "review".

Diposting pertama kali oleh lolibus:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Quint the Glowing Bitter Oyster:

I'll repost my formula from the last time we had discussed this topic.

Let
P = positive reviews
N = negative reviews
M = mixed reviews

Current formula: userscore = P / (P+N)

New formula: userscore = (P+0.5M) / (P+M+N)

P + M (0.5M) doesn't make sense since M is neutral; that would hurt the statistics.

Not "P + M (0.5M)", "P + 0.5M".

It's basically treating positive scores as 100 points and mixed scores as 50 points.

See, basically, right now, the positive ratings are treated as 100 points and negative scores are ratings as 0 points. So this counts mixed scores as exactly between them, for simplicity. I could actually use any three equally-spaced numbers, like -1, 0, +1, but I picked 0, 50, 100 because they correspond to the current system's percentage ratings.

Whether this would "hurt" the statistics is a subjective judgement.

[Gwarsbane]

Wow you guys are still arguing about this stuff? Its not going to happen, its not worth valves time to make a neutral. It doesn't tell anyone anyone anything except that the person could not make up their mind about it.

If I came back from the future and said "You're gonna be meh about this game and here are the reasons why" I would not bother with the game. to me and so many others "meh" or I don't know if I would recommend the game or not" means the game sucks don't buy it. So why bother having a meh or I don't know or neutral review since its basically a no. Just say no and then in the review part say why its a no and what could be done to change it to a yes. simple as that.

[Radene]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gwarsbane:

Wow you guys are still arguing about this stuff? Its not going to happen, its not worth valves time to make a neutral. It doesn't tell anyone anyone anything except that the person could not make up their mind about it.

If I came back from the future and said "You're gonna be meh about this game and here are the reasons why" I would not bother with the game. to me and so many others "meh" or I don't know if I would recommend the game or not" means the game sucks don't buy it. So why bother having a meh or I don't know or neutral review since its basically a no. Just say no and then in the review part say why its a no and what could be done to change it to a yes. simple as that.

The world doesn't revolve around you and people won't stop discussing this just because you're opposed to the idea and want the conversation to end.

You're free to not be here if the fact that this thread is still active inconveniences you.

But if you are here, then deal with it rather than try to make people accommodate you.

[username12121]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gwarsbane:

Wow you guys are still arguing about this stuff?

Ha ha, I see what you did there! I just love a good bit of irony.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gwarsbane:

Its not going to happen, its not worth valves time to make a neutral.

There has been no ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ statement from Valve to this end, and even if there were, it would still be open to dicussion and criticism. What privileged insider information do you posess that enables you to make this claim? If, as no doubt everyone else suspects, this is merely your assumption, then no-one needs to take it any more seriously than any other unsupported claim. There are plenty of things which have been asked for in Steam suggestions, and not acted upon yet. That often merely just points to Valve's now legendary slow response time. Nobody needs self appointed thought police to tell us what we can and cannot request, nor whether it's likely to happen.

And what's more, don't you see that when a forum regular comes on making wild baseless claims like this, just like someone did at the beginning of this thread, they are merely making the resumption of the discussion inevitable? For someone to claim that a suggestion has been previously "shot down" when indeed it has not, is a shameful piece of misinformation that others will naturally feel obligated to challenge. (And then for that same person to return to the discussion to cast aspersions on others because they again took up the argument is mischievous, perhaps even malicious, but undoubtedly preposterous.)

Misinformation is one of the major factors that detracts from the many advantages that the internet provides. It is likely that it will be at the root of many of the world's future problems, and it ought to be treated with utter contempt wherever it shows itself. Shame on those who disemminate it!

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gwarsbane:

It doesn't tell anyone anyone anything except that the person could not make up their mind about it.

That's not so. In the case of Steam reviews it tells me that a reviewer felt that a game was not so outstandingly good that it could simply be recommended to all, and also that it was not so irrevocably bad that it could not be recommended to anyone. In my opinion, most, perhaps even all games fall into this category, which is why I continue to suggest the complete removal of the word "recommend" from the review question/summary/score.

Having some people recommend while others don't recommend is just as unhelpful to the reader as having some remain neutral on the matter. The provision of good information, and opinion supported by descriptive examples are what ought to be key for any review. The quality and recommendability of most or all games is never black and white. If it was we wouldn't even be likely to need reviews or ratings. Readers are always likely to be faced with conflicting opinions, and have to make up their own minds based ultimately on their own subjective interpretation.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gwarsbane:

If I came back from the future and said "You're gonna be meh about this game and here are the reasons why" I would not bother with the game. to me and so many others "meh" or I don't know if I would recommend the game or not" means the game sucks don't buy it. So why bother having a meh or I don't know or neutral review since its basically a no. Just say no and then in the review part say why its a no and what could be done to change it to a yes. simple as that.

Again, this is not so, it's simply opinion. People can and do buy games that are described as "meh". They even buy games that are "not recommended" by some other people, in fact I'd be surprised if there were more than a handful of games that have 100% recommendation. Don't be worried about the negative impact of "neutral" within the system. If people wish to deliberately downrate a game, they already have the "not recommended" option available, and as far as "scoring" goes, that will always have a greater impact on a game than making available an "in between" rating.

(And seriously, what's with that "coming back from the future" analogy? Reviews are not about telling the reader what they will think, they are just telling us what the reviewer thinks, which is again why recommendations are not helpful, as they assume to tell the readers what they will think.)

[Quint the Alligator Snapper]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Gwarsbane:

Wow you guys are still arguing about this stuff? Its not going to happen, its not worth valves time to make a neutral. It doesn't tell anyone anyone anything except that the person could not make up their mind about it.

If I came back from the future and said "You're gonna be meh about this game and here are the reasons why" I would not bother with the game. to me and so many others "meh" or I don't know if I would recommend the game or not" means the game sucks don't buy it. So why bother having a meh or I don't know or neutral review since its basically a no. Just say no and then in the review part say why its a no and what could be done to change it to a yes. simple as that.

And clearly there are some people like yourself and Start_Running who could just continue using the Positive and Negative settings.

I actually am starting to quite like this idea:

Diposting pertama kali oleh lolibus:

Maybe give people the option to write a review without a rating that also doesn't get included in the score and has it's own tab so you can look at it fast.

If you want your yes/no decision, you can look at the review rating which would be calculated just as it is now. Meanwhile, there can be an "Informational" review setting -- just like there already is for Curators -- so those of us who are okay with "meh"s will be able to get the info we want.