Steam's refund policy is illegal sometimes

[MakoSipper]

A store's policy, regardless how many time they warn their customers about it, cannot go against the law. That's a fact.

In all countries I know, false advertising is illegal and gives you the right to request full compensation when the problem cannot be solved. If the country has time restrictions, they take priority, because Steam must follow the rules in each country they sell games in.

Why do I say this? Because I've purchased a game that has a known game and savefile breaking bug, and it's been known for over 2 years and it's being sold, despite not working properly.
The game is Rayman Origins. The game breaking bug can be found here and here, but there are even other bugs in the forum that I didn't encounter myself why playing.

So if I payed R$ 9,99 to get over 60 levels, as promised on the Store page, but I only got to play a bit over 20 because of the said bug. I've seen Steam Support's page for the game, and the link to the game's official website doesn't work anymore, and Ubisoft's support center (yes, Ubisoft... I hope they get banned from Steam someday) doesn't offer support for Rayman Origins (or Legends, for that matter) anymore.

When asking for a refund for the game, I get a quick automatic, templated reply from Steam Support saying the following:

We are unable to refund this purchase to your Steam Wallet at this time. Your playtime of an included product exceeds 2 hours (our refund policy maximum).
(...)
Requests are considered on a case by case basis and are not typically issued for purchases of released products that are more than 14 days old, or if the purchased product has more than 2 hours of playtime.

Only they don't even seem to have been reading what I write on field "Notes". So they're not seeing it on a case by case basis.

Now, why don't we all stand up against Valve's absurd refund policy (which they've implemented because it was illegal not having it), before we face more and more of these problems? We shouldn't wait until it happens to us, since it'll be too late to do anything about it.

So what do you guys think about Valve's refund policy and how it's illegal sometimes? Do you have any ideas of how to pressure Valve into changing it?
Please, don't say "they're not gonna change it", since it's been said before about Valve having any refund policy at all, and it doesn't add to the discussion.

[Golden]

With all respect, from my knowledge and apologise if I am wrong. Valves terms and conditions, legislating and so on are based in Germany or at least the country which they choose, no matter which country the user is in. It clearly states that in they user agreement from what I remember.


Now, by using valve and they service you agree to this term and conditions meaning that if the country they have said in their term conduction does not have legislation against it then they are not breaking the law.

[BlaBla]

you are reading the law for physical goods.
read the law on digital goods valve complies to EU law.

[MakoSipper]

Originally posted by Sgt.Golden:

With all respect, from my knowledge and apologise if I am wrong. Valves terms and conditions, legislating and so on are based in Germany or at least the country which they choose, no matter which country the user is in. It clearly states that in they user agreement from what I remember.

Now, by using valve and they service you agree to this term and conditions meaning that if the country they have said in their term conduction does not have legislation against it then they are not breaking the law.

Actually, you have to respect the law in each country you sell your product to. If they have a store there, physical or online, they have to abide to that country's laws.

As for terms, conditions and user policies, of course you agree to them, but they have no value if they have conflict with the law. For a more absurd example which illustrates it very clearly, it would be the same as Valve stating: "The user agrees that Valve has the right to torture and/or kill the user if they request a refund.". Since it's illegal (in my country, at least =p), it doesn't matter if it's in their terms of use--it's not allowed. Many companies hide behind terms of service as a way to hide their decision-making, and as an excuse to not do what they should and make the user think they're wrong, but luckily it doesn't work that way. =)

(By the way, thanks for disagreeing in such a kind manner, that's so rare on the internet! Happy holidays to you, you deserve it)

[MakoSipper]

Originally posted by BlaBla:

you are reading the law for physical goods.
read the law on digital goods valve complies to EU law.

The EU law doesn't apply outside the EU, and even then I'm not sure if it really complies to EU law on digital goods. Selling X and actually delivering Y is false advertising, no matter how you put it. =/

[Golden]

I see where you are coming from and you do have a very good point. However if Valve had a person in your country land who will torture you then he will be breaking be law because he will be in the land of your country and he has to follow the legislations there. Now, valve is a bit different because they are a company and I would say if they had their servers and offices based down there then they have to agree to the land legislations which they are on. I am not expert when it comes to legislations. However, as BlaBla asked, are you looking at digital copy legislation?

Also, yes most companies will for sure try and hide behind their term and conditions. (Also no problem I love to have nice conversations with people and you are current you don't find much like them on the Internet. Happy holidays to you too! :) )

[76561198258988800]

Hire a lawyer instead of complaining in a public forum.

Should cost you under $5000 to dispute.

[Golden]

Originally posted by Dr Thomas Pabst:

Hire a lawyer instead of complaining in a public forum.

Should cost you under $5000 to dispute.

I am sure he knows he can do that but I think he wants me the opinion of the community.

[BlaBla]

read your countries law on digital goods than.

looks like the law still needs to be tested.
http://techinbrazil.com/consumer-rights-for-digital-products-in-brazil

[Lily]

Originally posted by Sgt.Golden:

I am sure he knows he can do that but I think he wants me the opinion of the community.

It's a lot easier than filing a frivolous lawsuit that'll just get you laughed out of court.

The only way OP's problem could possibly be false advertising is if they stated a guarantee that you absolutely will not encounter any bugs while playing the game, and offering a 100% refund for anyone who experiences a bug. Otherwise, they're just selling a buggy product, which to a greater or lesser extent is a crime committed by essentially every game on Steam.

[MakoSipper]

Trolls are gonna be ignored =)

It wouldn't be frivolous.
Reason 1: not lacking with good will (ie, respecting the law) would get Steam fined for way more than R$ 10, not mention they would have to return my money and pay indemnification for refusing to abide to law, not to mention the complete lack of a phone number I can call for support (that's how it works here). So instead of returning me R$ 10 that I would have to use on Steam, they would end up paying between R$ 500 and R$ 1,000 to me, which is not much for them, but imagine if everyone would do that. Not to mention they'd have to pay for their lawyers.
Reason 2: Catching from previous point, as a way of saying "No, it's not ok, and it's financially better for you, Valve, if you would just refund my money." I don't know if you guys like to throw you money down the toilet, but I don't.
Reason 3: It's not just a buggy. It has game-breaking bugs. That's a whole new story. If it's known that you cannot move past level 20 (not sure exactly which level number that was), and they still sell it anyway, that's false advertising.

Also, lol, no, it doesn't cost $5k to dispute. Here's how it works: The lawyer agrees that he'll receive 25% to 30% of what you win as indemnifications. So all we'd have to pay here initially is like printing the required proof, copying documents, authenticating copies and stuff like that. Almost nothing.

Now, what I'm mostly surprised by is that people find it all ok. Don't you have any self-respect? If you're a law-abiding citizen, you deserve respect. You deserve that companies follow the law, regardless of how big they are. There's only one way of ensuring that, and it's not by sitting on your butt and saying it's not gonna work.

[Golden]

If the game itself is bugged have you tried to contact steam and explain them the situation? You can always send a support ticket and explain what has happened. Yes, it may take a week to get an answer but it would be a good option. Also reporting the game to them may help.


The refund system is automatic so I do not think it would be able to read the notes part as it just looks for the requirements.


(Have a lovey night :) )

[Pattisaurusrex]

If you want to speak to a steam representative, you need to submit a support ticket, not a refund request. From what I'm seeing if you use the digital goods in the EU, you're automatically null and void from a withdraw request, so EU law would not help you here. I highly doubt you (or anybody else in this world) would fight Steam in a legal battle over a single game that costs less than a nice dinner out.

[MakoSipper]

I've received an automatic email telling to check the game page on Steam support and try to contact Ubisoft, or check the game's website (which doesn't exist), so no real solution. It didn't take a week, though, so I think regardless of how I try to reach Steam Support, I'll be talking to a wall. I guess I'll try again after they decline my refund request for the 4th time.

Still, no way of treating a customer. They have more than enough money to hire and train people to do a decent job.

[Pattisaurusrex]

Steam is a very small (compared to companies like Ubisoft or Electronic Arts) company and it's well known that their support is on the lower end of awful. Gabe Newell addressed this issue in a Reddit AMA, but change doesn't happen overnight if it's going to happen at all. Patience is a virtue.

[MakoSipper]

Originally posted by Raptor Jesus:

I highly doubt you (or anybody else in this world) would fight Steam in a legal battle over a single game that costs less than a nice dinner out.

That's because you don't know me. I've once send comics to a relative in another city, and the comics costed like R$ 5, plus about R$ 5 in shipping. They were never delivered, and they've refused to return me the money, so there I went, filed a lawsuit against the postal service (a federal company) and won R$ 1,500 (minus 25%, the lawyer's share). So, yeah, I'd do that again.

Originally posted by Raptor Jesus:

If you want to speak to a steam representative, you need to submit a support ticket, not a refund request.

Well, how should I know that whatever I was writing in "Notes" was not being read by a person? If they don't read it, one more reason why they should change. Not how a customer should be treated.