Steam Discrimination or bad commercial decisions?

[Mcintosh Pro]

I’ll try to keep it short.

Steam region locked every single game for gifting in the country I live (Mexico), so during holidays I couldn’t gift games to my friends and family (US,Canada and Europe). This is both discriminative and a bad move. It’s a bad move, since I used to buy hundreds of games to gift during holidays (and I’m sure I wasn’t the only one in this region). It’s discriminative, since for some reason they believe people here need a lower price to be able to purchase their games. So… we can receive gifts but not gift ourselves?
So I would like for steam heads to reconsider. Why not just make the store go back to dollars like it was some months ago… charge the same price for them as the US and CAD… and we are all happy.

We don’t need a lower price.. I bought my games in normal pricing and nobody asked for that price reduction or help… it would be ok if only it wouldn’t actually mess with the BASIC functions of steam and take away the spirit of what the community likes about it.

So I’m sure that we are not the only ones with that problem. So here are 2 possible solutions:

1-Go back to a universal price in USD (or actual local exact equivalent) and charge the same amount to every single country. If u really want to give out discounts, average your prices so everyone gets benefited. So people won’t be paying 60euros for a 600 pesos game that should be 60 dollars. Equality over discrimination (exploiting the “rich” or giving advantages to the “poor” wtf)

2-Make it possible that we can choose the regional price of what we are buying. So we can gift it to anyone.. making us pay the “universally unlocked version price”. That way we can buy a “full unlocked copy” for the “full price” even if it’s different from the price of our region (we don’t mind paying more if it’s for a gift!!! Get it?)

------------------------
3-Give your solution.
------------------------

So the idea of this post is to get more ideas and in a way settle for one that we can really push steam to take. So give more ideas or develop these I’m giving please. This is a huge problem for me… I can’t even gift my kid presents from my account since he is in Canada… I want equality, I’m sure Steam doesn’t support discrimination and this was just a bad commercial decision without the intention to damage their customers.

Note: This doesn’t have to do with normal developer regional locks (so please refrain posting the concept that developers can choose the locks and areas since this doesn’t have to do anything with that). Please investigate this problem a bit before trying to explain your imaginary hypothesis about why it’s ok for us to be going through this problem. I’ll help you with a link… but its extends are much bigger (also check for the rupees problem). http://kotaku.com/you-cant-gift-steam-games-wherever-you-want-anymore-1672525767

[Grimaldus]

For all you people defending valve by saying they lost millions on the scams, think of this.
They gained millions of the people who had to pay MORE for each game, like me.
I pay in rough margin around 20-30£ MORE for each 3xA Game, and so does most other
players who lives in the so called "rich" world. And i can guarantie you that there are more
players paying MORE for their games, then there were players playing the market-scam.

So really. Valve didn't do this because they were LOSING money, they did it because they
wanted MORE money.

[Grimaldus]

Mcintosh Pro eredeti hozzászólása:

Valve/Steam, please hurry with that solution please, i'm sure u guys are smart,

Smart people would've come up with a better solution.... just sayin'

[Midnight Lost]

Mcintosh Pro eredeti hozzászólása:

Start_Running eredeti hozzászólása:

That's it.. damn, none of those are games I have the slightest interest in... hmm funny how that works... my interest in games can vary so wildly... but my interest in momeny has since the age of 13 remained fairly consistent.


Granted if you were hooked up to the hive net I could just menatlly transfer the experience of playing those games from your mind and thusly get all the enjoyment without all the hassle of playing, and gifting and what not.


But don't worry. the Hivetechs will be assimila---er rolling the service out in your local within the next 3 years.

Well sorry i don't have anything that is of interest to you. I don't really understand what momeny is. You see english is not my native language. Also i don't understand meantlly i suppose its a typo for mentally.

But mentally transmitting and experience is not a solution, it would be great tho... but i just want gifting back. Its not that impossible.. what you propose has a higher degree of being a suitable solution. But its too convoluted and there are more simple ways. Tho i appreciate your input.

Valve/Steam, please hurry with that solution please, i'm sure u guys are awesome and smart, people are getting ansi and thinking weird things.

I am at the point when I decide to gift a game or software to a friend, I just send it to them via Amazon, or another digital service.

Thats income lost for Valve/Steam.

While my measely amount may not mean anything to the millions that Steam makes, I am sure I am not the only one moving away from Steam.

[Start_Running]

Dreez eredeti hozzászólása:

For all you people defending valve by saying they lost millions on the scams, think of this.
They gained millions of the people who had to pay MORE for each game, like me.
I pay in rough margin around 20-30£ MORE for each 3xA Game, and so does most other
players who lives in the so called "rich" world. And i can guarantie you that there are more
players paying MORE for their games, then there were players playing the market-scam.

So really. Valve didn't do this because they were LOSING money, they did it because they
wanted MORE money.

You're paying what you were supposed to be paying in the first place. They just closed the backdoor you were sneaking through. Gifting was never intended as a backdoor to get around your local prices. But since it was abused to that purpose well.. you basically wound up being the reason or at least one of the reasons the policy was changed.... ironic.. no?

[Mcintosh Pro]

Start_Running eredeti hozzászólása:

Dreez eredeti hozzászólása:

For all you people defending valve by saying they lost millions on the scams, think of this.
They gained millions of the people who had to pay MORE for each game, like me.
I pay in rough margin around 20-30£ MORE for each 3xA Game, and so does most other
players who lives in the so called "rich" world. And i can guarantie you that there are more
players paying MORE for their games, then there were players playing the market-scam.

So really. Valve didn't do this because they were LOSING money, they did it because they
wanted MORE money.

You're paying what you were supposed to be paying in the first place. They just closed the backdoor you were sneaking through. Gifting was never intended as a backdoor to get around your local prices. But since it was abused to that purpose well.. you basically wound up being the reason or at least one of the reasons the policy was changed.... ironic.. no?

You understand that he is not supporting hijacking or scamming right? None of us do, a seperate solution has to be applied to this, we are not in favor of illegal operations. We want the legal ones to be efficient and transparent. Basically we want an option in which hijacking and scamming isn't there... But i agree, it is ironic that the mechanisms they designed created these problems and they held them there and then extended them to other natios so the problem was huge. If u ask me it was genius, not only did they close markets to increase revenue, but something so complex and that would piss so many off they did it without merely no opposition (maybe just this and some other posts) and not only that... they even have people like you that are support it. Genius!!! Tho... not right or ethical imho.

But with this panorama, it is still possible to give all what they feel comfortable with... even valve. So that is what we are here for, to solve this and maybe prevent a future crisis.

[Mcintosh Pro]

@Midnight Lost

I feel your pain. I have also recurred to other stores like gmg, get games and GG. I think we should still give Steam a chance, they probably will come up with a solution soon. I hope we can generate enough ideas to create a basis for the devs to make a solid solution. I deep in my heart hope this was just a temporary one.

[Midnight Lost]

Mcintosh Pro eredeti hozzászólása:

@Midnight Lost

I feel your pain. I have also recurred to other stores like gmg, get games and GG. I think we should still give Steam a chance, they probably will come up with a solution soon. I hope we can generate enough ideas to create a basis for the devs to make a solid solution. I deep in my heart hope this was just a temporary one.

Oh, I am here to play games with friends and all.

But when it comes to gifting, I simply look elsewhere seeing as Steam is no longer reliable in that department.

[Krieger]

Start_Running eredeti hozzászólása:

Dreez eredeti hozzászólása:

For all you people defending valve by saying they lost millions on the scams, think of this.
They gained millions of the people who had to pay MORE for each game, like me.
I pay in rough margin around 20-30£ MORE for each 3xA Game, and so does most other
players who lives in the so called "rich" world. And i can guarantie you that there are more
players paying MORE for their games, then there were players playing the market-scam.

So really. Valve didn't do this because they were LOSING money, they did it because they
wanted MORE money.

You're paying what you were supposed to be paying in the first place. They just closed the backdoor you were sneaking through. Gifting was never intended as a backdoor to get around your local prices. But since it was abused to that purpose well.. you basically wound up being the reason or at least one of the reasons the policy was changed.... ironic.. no?

lets look at this the other way lets say thousands of ppl were gifting games direct and not looking at it or seeing it as a scam but just gifting a game to someone that may have never bought that game, if not for the gift.

Lets say some of the long standing foundation may have been on that premice, lets call it unbeknowingly, there has got to be a better way to treat those ppl.

the link you put up was interesting, i was harping on b4 about steam not showing exchange rates...

So a game code bought -to 'buy' a select game in front of me, given to a friend in another country so he can actually buy it... but is there now a chance when little timmy 'grabs the code' and punches it in for the game he n 'other side of the world' gramps want to play, it may still not be buyable?

[Start_Running]

Bobisme eredeti hozzászólása:

lets look at this the other way lets say thousands of ppl were gifting games direct and not looking at it or seeing it as a scam but just gifting a game to someone that may have never bought that game, if not for the gift.

Lets say some of the long standing foundation may have been on that premice, lets call it unbeknowingly, there has got to be a better way to treat those ppl.

In a perfect world there'd be a way to do this. But you know as well as I tthat policies are not based around those that will do the right thing but based on those that will do the wrong/stupid thing. Sadly since there's a lot of corss over between those two sets it's impossible to tell who is which.

the link you put up was interesting, i was harping on b4 about steam not showing exchange rates...

You're welcome. :-)

So a game code bought -to 'buy' a select game in front of me, given to a friend in another country so he can actually buy it... but is there now a chance when little timmy 'grabs the code' and punches it in for the game he n 'other side of the world' gramps want to play, it may still not be buyable?

That a game may not be available in a region may speak to other issues. Legality Some games are banned in certain regions and in which case, selling or being a party to the sale of such banned goods would constitute an illegal activity which would put the publishers and steam into difficulties. There is also a simple fact that a dev/publisher just may not want to have the game sold in that region. Steam has given them the tool to decide that. Perhaps they made an agreement with a, local retail chain for distribution with a ceveat that they have the sole distribution rights within a given region. International business is very complex and complicated evenbefore you take into account the grey market.

So if you send a code, and a link and Timmy can't buy the game you were hoping or doesn't want to buy it.. that's less than ideal for you but what of Timmy, they still have funds and have the ability to buy a game they actually want and so will still be quite happy, in fact they will likely be happier for it. As I recall if the gift makes the other person happy... shouldn't that be the focus?

There is an idea for a logical work around but I doubt anyone would actually like it. I'll drop the idea in the pose below

[Start_Running]

The Idea:

• If you are going to fit someone a piece of software. You will still be limited by the game's regional availablity.
  
  
• Gifting is done at the time of purchase i.e The game cannot be gifted post purchase. This will mean you'll have to have the steam name of the recipient.
  
  
• When you purchase a game as a gift you will pay the Highest international retail price for the game as converted to your currency. So in other words. If you're buying a game to gift someone in a say Brazil you will pay as much as someone in say the VAT region. The price you pay will be the same price someone in the VAT regions would pay. With the addition of whatever local tax the recipient's region may impose. Which would mean you'd be paying more for it than you would yourself. You'd be paying the retail price with included tax of the most expensive region and then applying the recipient's local tax to that amount.
  
  
• WHen purchasing, sale discounts will be ignored. I.e you will pay full price regardless of what sale is going on.
  
  
• The recipient will be notified of the gift via email and be given the choice to accept or reject. If they accept the giver will be sent an email confirming that the person that accepted is the person they meant to send it to. Once confirmed. The process will be completed.

All that of course is based on the prime caveat that the game must be available in the recipients region. If it is not you will be notified of this prior to clicking the buy button, or rather the buy button will be disabled.

That would more or less be an idea that Valve, publishers and Trade authorities would agree with. Of course those with keen eyes have probably noted that the consumer is getting a big fork on this.

[Krieger]

well that surely is better than no option, with a brief we're sorry but due to some dubious activity in regard to gifting a game, games to be gifted must now be bought at the 'recieving' location rate

a company that decides to ban a game from one zone or a gov doing so is there perogative and if win or loss good for them'

My point was cost changes, as in based on your viewing it, seen at this price only to find that the transfered cost is not enough when using codes, or there abouts.

though i suppose if the game displays the cost in US when you get the code and give it to your friend...nope, steam auto converts it to an unknown variable based on how they feel about a country at the time? hehe possibly making what should have been enough not enough..

they really need to come up with a more cost effective approach..

[Start_Running]

Bobisme eredeti hozzászólása:

well that surely is better than no option, with a brief we're sorry but due to some dubious activity in regard to gifting a game, games to be gifted must now be bought at the 'recieving' location rate

I didn't say receiving location rate. I said, Most expensive location rate.

Meaning you in american would be maying the australian price for a gift you're buying for someone in peru along with the the peruvian taxes added onto it.

a company that decides to ban a game from one zone or a gov doing so is there perogative and if win or loss good for them'

Companies themselves rarely decide to ban a game. it's usually because selling the game in that region would require changes that are toob time consuming and expensive to be worth the effort. There's also the issue of local distriution chain. The may have arrangements with larger distributors that forbid them from using other distribution channels in the region. Say one store chain says they will distribute and promote it in the region but the demand exclusive distribution rights. That means the publisher cannot sell directlyt or through third party (steam) to consumers within that region. If they do they will be held in breach of contract and subject to penalties and fines.

My point was cost changes, as in based on your viewing it, seen at this price only to find that the transfered cost is not enough when using codes, or there abouts.

That is a risk... but again, even if it wouldn't be enough for the game you intended. It would still be more money than the person had in their steam wallet before so it'd be no less of a gift.

though i suppose if the game displays the cost in US when you get the code and give it to your friend...nope, steam auto converts it to an unknown variable based on how they feel about a country at the time? hehe possibly making what should have been enough not enough..

SIgh .. I get the feeling someojne needs to look into taxation and trade laws. It's been explained many times.. DIfferent countries have different pricing due to different taxes and tarrifs.

Believe it or not in some regions digital purchases are considered imports and thusly subject to import and customs duty fees. In addition to sales tax.

they really need to come up with a more cost effective approach..

Study international trade. You'll realize that their current approach was likely the most pragmatic and cost effective.

Is there anyone who could say that they would be unhappy receiving $5 cash ion their steam wallet via a gifting as opposed to a $5 game they may or may not like. or want?

Everyone likes Cash... not everyone however likes Defense Grid

[Krieger]

howdo you know, have you tried defence grid? maybe if i bought it for you and you play it n see that you do like it? heh

i know enough about taxation etc to know that thats not what i was talking about hehe

'they really need to come up with a more cost effective approach'
it was a some what sarcastic comment as really they're goin to loose sales, but i'm sure it's a calculated risk

[Start_Running]

Actually I like Defense Grid but not everyone does.. Some people just do not like Tower Defense Games... just like some people don't like curry flavoured ice cream Yes that does exist. Some people might be curious enough to try it... these are the same subset of people who would look at the suggestion you sent a link to and buy it.

Those that are dead against it, would neither click the link and more than likely be slightly peeved about havinga agme they don't like and don't intend to play stuck in their library.

So Giving game has a 20%-25% chance of the receiver being ina worse mood from receiving it as opposed to a better mood. If have yet to meet anyone who's mood worsened after receiving free money.

A more effecrtive approach. Well you'd have tpo ask someone at Steam and a few publishers. IA solution is effective if:

* It solves the problem it was intended to fix.
* Any problems it adds are less problematic/costly than the problem it fixes.

If it meets these too criteria it is effective. Ideal, probably not, But we are never granted ideal situations that would allow for ideal solutions.

To the consumer it's not effective but then the consumer was never the one with the problem, were they?

Think of it as sharin g the burden of a problem. In the old set upo Steam Bore 50% of the Problem and The Publishers Bore 50% of the problem... COnsumers carried 0%,

Now Steam carries 40% the publishers carry 40% and the consumer carries 20% of the burden.

[GooN]

To Start_Running,

My post was mostly hypothetical and most of what I said was simply to refute wallet codes as a viable replacement for gifting. I get what you're saying, but I think you have a different ideology with regards to gifting, from someone like Macintosh_Pro. Personally, I think getting money is good too, but I also wouldn't turn my nose up at getting free games, even if they are games I'm not very interested in. Maybe I'll develop an interest in them if I try them?

Yes, smaller denominations would help, but ultimately, its strange giving people money to buy a specific game, that you actually wanted to give them as a gift. We can both agree on that. That was part of the point I was trying to make in my last post. I wasn't trying to say that giving money to buy a specific gift is a good idea. But using wallet codes, I'd be forced to do that, if I wanted to give someone a specific game. That would be the only way to do it.

Your analogy with the ferrari is a bit flawed, but I get your point. However, I was making the same point in my post. So you didn't need to make an analogy. I agree that trying to force people to buy specific games is weird. But giving games as gifts is a bit different. And I'm sure Macintosh_Pro has good reasons as to why he wants to give games as gifts. Perhaps he wants to promote certain games that he has an invested interest in, or maybe he wants to increase the player base of certain games so he has more people to play online with... whatever the reasons though, why shouldn't he be able to gift people games? Seems ridiculous that he should be denied that service.

I just hope Valve is working on a solution to the problem.

To Macintosh_Pro,

Thanks, I'm glad if I could be of any help. I wish I could offer a good solution. I've been thinking about the problem, and I think it's very complicated. I think Valve would have to change Steam quite a bit to get a workable solution. I'm not sure if they are motivated enough to do so...

Maybe this has already been suggested, or you've already thought of this. It's not exactly a brilliant idea, but seems logical to me.

What I was thinking was, to solve the problem, Steam needs to allow people to access different Steam "stores".

Currently, depending on the region in which we live, we are given access to a certain list of games, which are available in our country, right? That's our "store". My account is set to the Japanese store. I'm not sure of the technical terms here. But basically, I'm limited to the Japanese "store" because I live in Japan. I can't access the Canadian or U.S. stores, for example, unless I create a new account on Steam, and I have a LOCAL credit card in those countries.

All of the prices for me are in YEN, but I have access to a lot of English games. Not all of the same games that are available in the U.S. or Canada though.

The problem with gifting is, I cannot access or even see other stores for other countries unless I have an account in those countries, with a credit card in those countries which is crazy. Credit cards are supposed to be designed for international use... so why are credit cards being limited to their respected countries only by companies that do digital distribution, like Steam, and Sony Playstation Store etc.

Other companies don't work this way. Amazon for example, lets you use credit cards from any country, regardless of the Amazon domain in which you are shopping. I can use my Japanese VISA card on www.amazon.ca, www.amazon.com, www.amazon.co.jp.... any domain works fine.

So what I'm thinking is, why is that? I can access ANY Amazon store. I can access the U.S. Store, the Canadian store, the Chinese store, whatever... and I can place orders from those sites, and have items shipped to places in THEIR respective countries. And Amazon simply tells me if I cannot have the item shipped to Japan, so it's a very effective system. I can see all the items for sale in any country, and I can order those items and have them shipped to people living in those countries.... it works perfectly.

For example, I could go to www.amazon.ca, and order something for my parents and have it shipped to their house in Canada, using my Japanese credit card. I've done it. There aren't even any extra taxes or charges other than Canadian taxes that normally are applied. And the currency exchange is done by VISA. It works just fine. And I can even order some things that can be shipped to Japan but I gotta pay Japanese import taxes, and tariffs, and shipping etc.... but I can order things and have them shipped. If it can't be shipped to Japan, the site tells me, simple as that. Amazon deals with small distributers, and those distributers decide where they can ship their products, or perhaps the countries governments decide that.

So the question is, and maybe this is the issue Valve needs to address is, why can't I go on the Canadian Steam store, and purchase a game for someone who lives in Canada? Steam knows my account is Japanese, so the system can still block me from buying games that are not available in my region for whatever reasons (who knows....). But why shouldn't I be able to access the Canadian store to buy games for people in Canada as gifts? I still pay the Canadian price, so nobody loses any money. It doesn't affect Valve's bottom line in any negative way as far as I know. And I get to buy games for people in Canada. Everybody wins, right? Other companies can do this... why can't Valve? Is it just too expensive to develop the system? I would think it is just a matter of programming the software to allow it... it might be a lot of coding, but I think it would benefit Valve to do so, and it should boost their sales.... that's a matter of opinion though... I really don't know.

Steam would have to build their system a bit differently.... giving people access to all of the stores. As long as their system restricts people to buying games on the store of a specific country only for people who live in that country.... it should work. Currency exchange would be handled by the credit card company, and taxes and tariffs or whatever would be applied locally because the store is local. It's all legal. I'm not an expert on these things, but if Amazon can do it, why can't Valve?

I'm sure Start_Running will have plenty of good reasons as to why I'm wrong... :) Which is fine. I'd be interested in hearing why Valve can't do what Amazon does. To me, it's just a matter of properly separating their "stores" or domains, and being careful about access and region protection. I can't see why they can't create a system like Amazon.

Anyway.... just something I was thinking about. And I'm sorry if someone already talked about this... I'm not going to read 400 posts.... :P