A step in the right direction Valve, but damage has already been done.

[Arrowhead]

This has truly shaken my confidence in Valve to the core. I've spent literally tens of thousands of dollars on Steam over the years, and I'm still kind of in shock about this whole fiasco. Rolling out a deeply flawed system in such a high profile manner, defending it for days and then suddenly backtracking out of it? Did this just happen? Really? It's still totally unbelievable to me.. I think we have a right to know what exactly is going on and what are Valve's intentions for the future of this service before we are asked to invest anymore.

Digital distribution is especially built on trust since we are so vulnerable. What happened over the weekend feels like a violation of that trust. The trust in that Valve truly holds the values of PC gamers at heart. Valve to me atleast were always the golden boys of the industry and right now I feel that they need to do some serious soul searching and provide more answers to the community before they can gain this trust back.

[ambosen]

Początkowo opublikowane przez merfab76:

Modding is about sharing. Sure, stealing did happen in the past, but it was relatively minor and without consequences.

Where do you get either of these notions? Such a grand, and intoxicating naivity.

Once you're able to sell things which are, even if it's a small part, not yours, this becomes a huge problem, especially when Valve themselves told them that they didn't care.

You mean like happens every time someone buys a game on steam? Tell me more of the problems caused by what you do on a regular basis, and why in this particular case, it's a problem for the first time. This shouid be good.

Nope, fallacy, most people specifically said they were ready to compensate certain modders fro their work, just not in these conditions

Then why haven't they? And what about all of the ones who said outright they never would? Do they not exist now?

Tell you what.Put your money where your mouth is. Find a mod you like, and donate to the author, or authors. You do that, I'll at least consider you decent enough to actually believe what you're telling me, in spite of the evidence otherwise for so many of these people.

I won't even ask you for proof. I'll take your word alone that you have.

First, you paid the tools when you bought the game. Do you really think Beth made the CK out of kindness, without any compensation. Not only it's included in the price of the game, but it's specifically aimed at modders which keep their games alive, even fixing them sometimes. In a sense, if someone should pay modders, it should be Beth :p

Yes, given that they released multiple games previously which featured modding tools that there's no evidence they ever benefitted financially from. Everyone talks of Oblivion, but they forget Morrowind. They forget Redguard. They forget Battlespire. They forget the many mods, unofficial patches and more Bethesda's developers have released over the years, which in most cases, they never saw a penny for.

And what makes you think Bethesda doesn't? Last I checked, they hire modders just as much as any other developer. Quite a bit more then most.

Not sure what you're saying there ...

Your argument is inherently fallacious. You argue that the mod developer has no right to their mod, nor does the developer of the game. If neither has right, how can any of them sell either? You've literally created a scenario where one party must waive rights to their work, for either to sell, instead of the legal solution, and fair one, where both maintain rights coherent with the relationship of the works.

It's no different then when Valve used the Quake II engine to release Half life before they ever ported it to any of the various source versions.

All while you continued buying cosmetics, keys, and other items in other games, by multiple deveopers, without even giving in to the notion that your argument is fallacious based off of months, or in many cases, years worth of your own actions.

I don't know who you're speaking for or to, but I never bought a single of these things

That'd make you very much in the minority then. Even if you only traded for them with other items, or received, and used them you still took part in their merchandising. It's nothing to be ashamed of, most steam users have.

Doesn't that just make you feel warm inside? Knowing you don't have a leg to stand on, but you still got to tell someone else what they could or couldn't do with what they made?

You mean like Valve telling the modder who had to pull down his mod that they would not remove completly the mod from the workshop until legally compelled to do so ? :p

You mean like when they blocked access to it completely? It's not up there, hasn't been since it was pulled. Go and look.

But don't worry, Valve didn't say they ditched the entire idea, they removed it for Skyrim but you can be assured it will come back one way or another for future games. After all, why pass on an opportunity to make money out of other people's work without doing much themselves ?

Actually, they did. They capitulated to a bunch of entitled ♥♥♥♥♥ who had neither right, nor reason to dictate the terms of use of *ANYONE* involved's work. You know, even in spite of the fact you've been more then willing to accept in Team Fortress 2, in CS:GO, in Dota 2, and many others, for *years.*

[Ambivalent]

ambosen i hope i'm not offending you, it is not intended.

Long story short : We just gave feedback to Valve and Bethesda, i'm sure modders gave feedback too.

When Valve announced that mods would be sold some accepted, some declined, some got mad, some supported wholeheartedly; even in modding scene people were splitted into many fractions as i have seen on nexus and on the net.

In the end they decided that it was bad to sell mods at that time. Might need tweaking, might return as same it was, might never return, might be mandatory, might return for another game... No idea, we'll see and act appropriately just like you guys and gals will.

People gave feedback just like they would to any game on Steam.

Don't you review games like "Too short, not worth x dollars" or "Get it while you can lads! Game of the year!" or "Better wait a deal like 75% off"

Have developers ever called you "a bunch of entitled ♥♥♥♥♥ who had neither right, nor reason to dictate the terms of use of *ANYONE* involved's work" for your criticism?

I for example think CoD is really expensive, not worth it. It is not dictating or anything, just a simple thought. I have never bought CoD myself. Probably not gonna get next installment aswell.

Same goes for modders, Bethesda and Valve in mod situation. I think mod pack was expensive and i think it raised people's tension even more.

Even if i can't understand your bitterness against at least half of community still thanks for your feedback.

[ambosen]

Ambivalent, thank you for your quick and respectful response. It's been an extreme rarity from those who take your position, I'm sorry to say.

Am I bitter? You try dealing with death threats, with people going out of their way to *actively sabotage* your ability to play mods you already have by trying to fraudulently report them as stolen simply so they won't be there, with people flat out lying about *you, personally* simply in hopes of making sure you aren't allowed to speak, or be listened to, what your opinions are, and people literally accusing you both in and out of game of trying to kill the community, simply because you see nothing wrong with modders having a "choice" if they get paid for their work or not, and not feel a bit.

That said, I do have to take issue with the lack of factuality of some of your statements. For starters, I'm yet to see any evidence that one side of this "debate" if you could even call it that was listened to at all. I saw modders who were attacked endlessly, for simply *refusing to comment*. I saw *free* mods attacked by those who claimed to have secret knowledge that modders who'd never even tried to put out a paid mod were secretly doing so under other user names.

To put ti bluntly, I saw a minority of users on steam, get to dictate what I, and so many others was allowed to do. And I don't like it. I don't like the fact that an inherent *human* right, that others can, within the terms of a legal contract, be compensated for their work, was being openly attacked.

You talk to me of civility, or of listening to the community. What you, and so many others fail to understand, is that for there ever to be the argument of freedom, compromises must be made, not the sort where you sell out... But where you tell even a clear majority (which I've still not seen any evidence exists in the 8 million plus players Skyrim has on steam) that they don't have rights over others.

I can respect that you have a different opinion, I can even agree with you on many of your concerns. That still doesn't make it right to dictate what lawful rights holders, can, and can't do with their work.

It still doesn't change the fact, that by allowing people to do so, Valve and Bethesda have started us down a very dark road very few of you have stopped to consider...

Many of you, have literally, without a trace of irony, argued for the abolition of the gaming industry. And you've shown you're willing to do some pretty nasty things to see it happen.

Why as a gamer, should I not be scared of what you set out to do, and what major developers *let* you do? It establishes an already troubling precedent. I've already seen quite a few changes made to games because of very vocal, but frankly, oft times, simply wrong individuals.

How much longer until you're getting games removed from the shelves that are quite decent? How much longer until you pretty kill off the indie game scene?

In all your cries for justice, so many of you didn't stop to ask yourself...

When does it end? Who else is going to be hurt because of this?

I don't take my position out of some mistaken belief that what some mod developers (many of which were doing so to try and support your side, again, oft times with stolen art assets) but because I care about gaming as a whole.

I take it because there is literally no other sane option to take. I've watched dozens of good people's reputation trashed because of this. I've watched good friends turn on each other.

And if this keeps going to the extent some of you clearly want it to, I may very well see the death of modding itself. What modder could possibly want to endure what so many of them have because of how so many on your side acted? What developer would?

I've seen a possible future, a terrifying future, and it is one of so many people here's making. I've seen where a good, decent hobby, gets destroyed by people who genuinely believe what they're doing is somehow protecting it.

[76561198001062896]

Początkowo opublikowane przez ambosen:

Początkowo opublikowane przez merfab76:

Modding is about sharing. Sure, stealing did happen in the past, but it was relatively minor and without consequences.

Where do you get either of these notions? Such a grand, and intoxicating naivity.

Once you're able to sell things which are, even if it's a small part, not yours, this becomes a huge problem, especially when Valve themselves told them that they didn't care.

You mean like happens every time someone buys a game on steam? Tell me more of the problems caused by what you do on a regular basis, and why in this particular case, it's a problem for the first time. This shouid be good.

Nope, fallacy, most people specifically said they were ready to compensate certain modders fro their work, just not in these conditions

Then why haven't they? And what about all of the ones who said outright they never would? Do they not exist now?

Tell you what.Put your money where your mouth is. Find a mod you like, and donate to the author, or authors. You do that, I'll at least consider you decent enough to actually believe what you're telling me, in spite of the evidence otherwise for so many of these people.

I won't even ask you for proof. I'll take your word alone that you have.

First, you paid the tools when you bought the game. Do you really think Beth made the CK out of kindness, without any compensation. Not only it's included in the price of the game, but it's specifically aimed at modders which keep their games alive, even fixing them sometimes. In a sense, if someone should pay modders, it should be Beth :p

Yes, given that they released multiple games previously which featured modding tools that there's no evidence they ever benefitted financially from. Everyone talks of Oblivion, but they forget Morrowind. They forget Redguard. They forget Battlespire. They forget the many mods, unofficial patches and more Bethesda's developers have released over the years, which in most cases, they never saw a penny for.

And what makes you think Bethesda doesn't? Last I checked, they hire modders just as much as any other developer. Quite a bit more then most.

Not sure what you're saying there ...

Your argument is inherently fallacious. You argue that the mod developer has no right to their mod, nor does the developer of the game. If neither has right, how can any of them sell either? You've literally created a scenario where one party must waive rights to their work, for either to sell, instead of the legal solution, and fair one, where both maintain rights coherent with the relationship of the works.

It's no different then when Valve used the Quake II engine to release Half life before they ever ported it to any of the various source versions.

All while you continued buying cosmetics, keys, and other items in other games, by multiple deveopers, without even giving in to the notion that your argument is fallacious based off of months, or in many cases, years worth of your own actions.

I don't know who you're speaking for or to, but I never bought a single of these things

That'd make you very much in the minority then. Even if you only traded for them with other items, or received, and used them you still took part in their merchandising. It's nothing to be ashamed of, most steam users have.

Doesn't that just make you feel warm inside? Knowing you don't have a leg to stand on, but you still got to tell someone else what they could or couldn't do with what they made?

You mean like Valve telling the modder who had to pull down his mod that they would not remove completly the mod from the workshop until legally compelled to do so ? :p

You mean like when they blocked access to it completely? It's not up there, hasn't been since it was pulled. Go and look.

But don't worry, Valve didn't say they ditched the entire idea, they removed it for Skyrim but you can be assured it will come back one way or another for future games. After all, why pass on an opportunity to make money out of other people's work without doing much themselves ?

Actually, they did. They capitulated to a bunch of entitled ♥♥♥♥♥ who had neither right, nor reason to dictate the terms of use of *ANYONE* involved's work. You know, even in spite of the fact you've been more then willing to accept in Team Fortress 2, in CS:GO, in Dota 2, and many others, for *years.*

to keep things short: people who are willing donate to their favorite mod makers regardless
people who dont: they wont do it anyway, let alone with a paywall.
Also notice how many of us said that we are not against supporting them financially, just not with a skewed paymodel that only benefits Valve and Bethesda for most part.

[merfab76]

Początkowo opublikowane przez ambosen:

Where do you get either of these notions? Such a grand, and intoxicating naivity.

Dunno, maybe from the full year (and more) I spent modding Morrowind and Falcon4, things that I was able to do because there was a community willing to share without being afraid that I would run with their knowledge or assets for making a profit ? Which I obviously did not, and never thought about doing.

And to reiterate what I said in another thread, but which probably got lost in the mass, I witnessed the same kind of meltdown happen to Falcon4. A small group of modders decided to secure a deal with a company in order to produce an "official" new Falcon4, taking with them (knowingly or not) the assets (or at the very least the knowledge) of others. The Falcon4 community imploded because of this, we ended up with at least 3 different versions of Falcon4, and as far as I know, Falcon4 modding died a few months after that.

You mean like happens every time someone buys a game on steam? Tell me more of the problems caused by what you do on a regular basis, and why in this particular case, it's a problem for the first time. This shouid be good.

Once again, I have no idea what you're on about ...

Then why haven't they? And what about all of the ones who said outright they never would? Do they not exist now?

Maybe because most modders didn't even ask ? Maybe because it's considered illegal ? Maybe because most mods don't even warrant such a thing ? How should I know ?

Tell you what.Put your money where your mouth is. Find a mod you like, and donate to the author, or authors. You do that, I'll at least consider you decent enough to actually believe what you're telling me, in spite of the evidence otherwise for so many of these people.

I won't even ask you for proof. I'll take your word alone that you have.

Tell you what, I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I did my share to contribute to the community, even if I stopped (publicly) some 10 years ago. Some of my mods (if I can remember their names :D) must still be around, I could probably link you to them, but frankly, icbb. Besides, I don't have any games installed at the moment that require me to mod them.

Yes, given that they released multiple games previously which featured modding tools that there's no evidence they ever benefitted financially from. Everyone talks of Oblivion, but they forget Morrowind. They forget Redguard. They forget Battlespire. They forget the many mods, unofficial patches and more Bethesda's developers have released over the years, which in most cases, they never saw a penny for.

Right, Bethesda did all this out of kindness, absolutely not to increase the sales of their games, got you :p
And I did not forget any of those : I bought and played every TES game since Arena, except Redguard (yep, including Battlespire, which frankly was not their best success ;))

And what makes you think Bethesda doesn't? Last I checked, they hire modders just as much as any other developer. Quite a bit more then most.

Then what was the point of changing a working system : talented modders got hired, if that was their wish, if I hear you.

Your argument is inherently fallacious. You argue that the mod developer has no right to their mod, nor does the developer of the game. If neither has right, how can any of them sell either? You've literally created a scenario where one party must waive rights to their work, for either to sell, instead of the legal solution, and fair one, where both maintain rights coherent with the relationship of the works.

It's no different then when Valve used the Quake II engine to release Half life before they ever ported it to any of the various source versions.[/quote]

What argument ? I said no such thing. To the contrary, it seems to me that every mod created belongs to the publisher. I'm running out of time here so can't elaborate.

That'd make you very much in the minority then. Even if you only traded for them with other items, or received, and used them you still took part in their merchandising. It's nothing to be ashamed of, most steam users have.

The only thing I trade here are trading cards, that's all.

You mean like when they blocked access to it completely? It's not up there, hasn't been since it was pulled. Go and look.

Go and read what Chesko has to say about it, you might see what I mean.

Actually, they did. They capitulated to a bunch of entitled ♥♥♥♥♥ who had neither right, nor reason to dictate the terms of use of *ANYONE* involved's work. You know, even in spite of the fact you've been more then willing to accept in Team Fortress 2, in CS:GO, in Dota 2, and many others, for *years.*

M'okay, as I said, running out of time, and if it boils down to insulting people who disagree with you, I don't see why I should spend more (time) replying to this.

[76561198001062896]

also i cannot help but say that its quite ironic how people who protested against paid mods are being labeled as some sort of public enemy instead of actually understanding the other side of the debate too for once
Hinthint: its not necessarily about being entitled and wanting everything for free

[Dimebag]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Zetikla:

also i cannot help but say that its quite ironic how people who protested against paid mods are being labeled as some sort of public enemy instead of actually understanding the other side of the debate too for once
Hinthint: its not necessarily about being entitled and wanting everything for free

A new thread has popped up asking for an ad source to generate money for mods , with a petition ...

[76561198001062896]

Początkowo opublikowane przez NathanD:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Zetikla:

also i cannot help but say that its quite ironic how people who protested against paid mods are being labeled as some sort of public enemy instead of actually understanding the other side of the debate too for once
Hinthint: its not necessarily about being entitled and wanting everything for free

A new thread has popped up asking for an ad source to generate money for mods , with a petition ...

*facepalm* oh for f*** sake...

[Dimebag]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Zetikla:

Początkowo opublikowane przez NathanD:

A new thread has popped up asking for an ad source to generate money for mods , with a petition ...

*facepalm* oh for f*** sake...

It won't work ... too many fingers in the pie and too many gamers who would bail . Mods may just have to remain free .

[76561198001062896]

Początkowo opublikowane przez NathanD:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Zetikla:

*facepalm* oh for f*** sake...

It won't work ... too many fingers in the pie and too many gamers who would bail . Mods may just have to remain free .

can you please link to the thread? im actually curious as to what the OP says

[Dimebag]

http://steamcommunity.com/app/72850/discussions/0/611704730329595653/?tscn=1430219908

[ambosen]

Początkowo opublikowane przez merfab76:

Where do you get either of these notions? Such a grand, and intoxicating naivity.

Dunno, maybe from the full year (and more) I spent modding Morrowind and Falcon4, things that I was able to do because there was a community willing to share without being afraid that I would run with their knowledge or assets for making a profit ? Which I obviously did not, and never thought about doing.

And you just happen to choose to list two seperate communities I was a long time member of back when I still dabbled in modding, and pretend none of the drama most of us saw in it existed. Remarkable that you'd actually pull that. Even more so that you'd chppse not one but *two* games I am very familiar with, as well as the modding communities of.

And buddy, if you were using this screen name, I never heard of you at all in either.

And to reiterate what I said in another thread, but which probably got lost in the mass, I witnessed the same kind of meltdown happen to Falcon4. A small group of modders decided to secure a deal with a company in order to produce an "official" new Falcon4, taking with them (knowingly or not) the assets (or at the very least the knowledge) of others. The Falcon4 community imploded because of this, we ended up with at least 3 different versions of Falcon4, and as far as I know, Falcon4 modding died a few months after that.

Falcon 4 was never a big modding community to begin with. Seeing as there were quite literally, no actual mod tools except what the community itself created, and the engine itself was different from the original F-16 Fighting Falcon largely in how much was bolted on in hopes of turning out another game with the engine. Not like Air Warrior, or any of the other flight simulators of the era.

But true believers never let anything die. There's still Falcon 4.0 mods being released to this day, provided you have a Pentium 2 or earlier to run them with.

Once again, I have no idea what you're on about ...

Just the inherent problem with your scenario, namely that it's one that never happened, and can't, yet you insist did and does.

Maybe because most modders didn't even ask ?

You clearly didn't look, then. Quite a few were, right here on steam. But I wasn't asking about modders. I was asking you why you were pretending people weren't publicly stating they'd steal or not pay for mods, here on steam. Do try and keep up with your own choice of subject material, will you?

Maybe because it's considered illegal?

An argument which would be predicated on the original game's developer saying as such *and* existing law to make it so, neither of which was the case with the Skyrim mods in question. Or any other game it's already happened in, for that matter.

Maybe because most mods don't even warrant such a thing?

A matter solely of opinion. I know many a modder who'd gladly pay for just a weapon, and what right do you have to tell them they can't if they so desire?

How should I know ?

Well, you do seem to at least believe you have an answer for everything. I was simply trying to give you the chance to prove it.

Tell you what, I have absolutely nothing to prove to you. I did my share to contribute to the community, even if I stopped (publicly) some 10 years ago. Some of my mods (if I can remember their names :D) must still be around, I could probably link you to them, but frankly, icbb.

How is actively participating in attacks on modders and the kind of witch hunt you've endorsed contributing to the community? No offense, but I have a hard time a modder, even a retired one would slag off other modders as much as you have.

Yes, given that they released multiple games previously which featured modding tools that there's no evidence they ever benefitted financially from. Everyone talks of Oblivion, but they forget Morrowind. They forget Redguard. They forget Battlespire. They forget the many mods, unofficial patches and more Bethesda's developers have released over the years, which in most cases, they never saw a penny for.

Right, Bethesda did all this out of kindness, absolutely not to increase the sales of their games, got you :p
And I did not forget any of those : I bought and played every TES game since Arena, except Redguard (yep, including Battlespire, which frankly was not their best success ;))

Considering many of those mods and unofficial patches were created by people who weren't even *working* for Bethesda anymore, I highly doubt they received any compensation for it. But what do I know?

It's not like it's a well known fact inside of the elder scrolls community at large. But wait! It is!

Then what was the point of changing a working system : talented modders got hired, if that was their wish, if I hear you.

What's the point of pretending something changed? It's only you and a handful of others doing so to begin with.

What argument ? I said no such thing. To the contrary, it seems to me that every mod created belongs to the publisher. I'm running out of time here so can't elaborate.

So now the developer has no right to recognize a modder as having any rights to their work? When I say you're argument is fallacious, it means it comes from a premise that literally cannot be. You literally create a new, imagined scenario, to pretend something is different that is not. As you just did with that sentence, again.

That'd make you very much in the minority then. Even if you only traded for them with other items, or received, and used them you still took part in their merchandising. It's nothing to be ashamed of, most steam users have.

The only thing I trade here are trading cards, that's all.

So you do admit you take part in merchandising on steam, then? Well, at least you've been (marginally) honest on one thing.

Go and read what Chesko has to say about it, you might see what I mean.

Or you could just go and look rather then dodge the question.

M'okay, as I said, running out of time, and if it boils down to insulting people who disagree with you, I don't see why I should spend more (time) replying to this.

And yet, I'm giving you the time of day when that's all you've done from the start. All most taking your position have done.

[godzillarulesall]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Alcator:

I wonder if perhaps you will ever be able to admit, dear OP, that it was the Community, not Valve or Bethesda, who went all berzerk on the modders and actually chased them away from the game. It was the Community who spouted death threats and obscenities at modders, Valve and Bethesda.

Valve might have made a mistake, but the community commited a crime of hate.

*slow ironic clap*

We can now put corporations and modders on the official list of professional victim players. SJW's will be proud.

[ambosen]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Zetikla:

also i cannot help but say that its quite ironic how people who protested against paid mods are being labeled as some sort of public enemy instead of actually understanding the other side of the debate too for once
Hinthint: its not necessarily about being entitled and wanting everything for free

So, I should just ignore all of the people who've essentially said otherwise, yourself included, because it's not wrong to want to give someone else the shaft simply because they're doing something for you, and has nothing to do with the widespread entitlement mentality so many people have, regardless of their walk of life, hobbies, age, gender, ect?

As well as the people who've very explicitly said otherwise? It's right there in the argument "mods should be free." They're never free. They always cost someone something. You're just not the one paying it.

[76561198001062896]

Początkowo opublikowane przez godzillarulesall:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Alcator:

I wonder if perhaps you will ever be able to admit, dear OP, that it was the Community, not Valve or Bethesda, who went all berzerk on the modders and actually chased them away from the game. It was the Community who spouted death threats and obscenities at modders, Valve and Bethesda.

Valve might have made a mistake, but the community commited a crime of hate.

*slow ironic clap*

We can now put corporations and modders on the official list of professional victim players. SJW's will be proud.

{LINK USUNIĘTY}http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/61689509.jpg