How Can Paid Mods be Done Right?

[urknighterrant]

Paid mods for Skyrim was a disaster. Nobody will deny that, but I don't think it's an intrinsically bad idea. IMHO it only failed this time because it was implemented stupidly. 

It should never have been implemented in a game with an established modding community. That was their biggest mistake. Any idiot could have told them it would be an invitation to rampant theft. 

The best mods are done by whole teams, but the workshop didn't allow for profit splitting or payment through an organization like an escrow service. This in and of itself was enough to make a mockery of any claims that it would encourage "higher quality mods".

So I've been thinking... how could this be done RIGHT. 

Paid modding isn't an intrinsically bad idea, but the industry needs to learn from these mistakes.

I also had a couple other thoughts. 

It seems to me that the idea of professional modding needs to be done as a core game concept, not an aside (much less years after release). This way mods can be tied to the license attached to the toolset used to develop them and the community knows right from the start they have a certain responsibility to protect their ideas. The core system could also allow modders to leave secret "signatures" in their code that would automatically detect unauthorized use of someone else's code. These types of functions would be easy to implement and a very effective way to further deter theft. 

Participation should not be free, automated, or anonymous. Once you start taking money you lose the right to hide behind a username. Participation should be verified through a mailing address (the same way Google verifies business owners) and checks should be mailed making fraud and theft much more dangerous for scammers. A small registration fee, say $100, should be more than adequate to keep munchkin level griefers away and pay the game publisher to administer registrations. Postage and mailing service fees can be deducted from the modder's cut. 

The modder should get the lions share of the payments. Apple's 70-30 split seems like a fair model. 

Oh... and as a modder I don't like the lifespan of my mod dictated by the participation of an outside server. When it's done right professional modding will probably be done as a Peer to Peer client in-game rather than through a digital distributor like steam.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

Marvel and DC have trademarked the terms "super hero" and "super heroes".

http://robot6.comicbookresources.com/2013/02/creator-tangles-with-dc-and-marvel-over-super-hero-trademark/

S.x.

[RedLightning]

TheStoryteller01 の投稿を引用：

I was strongly and passionately against paid mods for Skyrim in the Workshop, mainly because I found it the perfectly wrong game and community to choose for an experiment.

But I am neither against paid mods in general nor do I think that it can't work.

And the argument if paid mods make better mods has to be settled one way or the other - and the sooner, the better.

I am not even opposed to the next FO or TES having paid mods.

IF such a feature is announced and implemented from the start and accompanied by a comprehensive and firm set of rules and guidelines, I would consider that to be fair and square.

And if Bethesda would be willing to risk one of their flagship franchises to try it out, I would be willing to give it a chance.

Of course they would be willing to risk it.. Anything for a cut of the money.

Say this "paid mods" crap finally gets "mainstreamed" and Bethesda and others are enjoying the profits..

Now .. they want more money.. I wonder just how low they will get to make more. as it stands they made a boatload of money selling games without any tangable product included.. now they gotta get more money..

and more...

and more.

oh yea.. and more.

All they care about is a cut.. nothing more. Yet.. especially with bethesda.. leave the work of bugfixing their game to the community.. in the shape of "free unofficial, unsupported, fixes.." hey wait.. they could charge for that tooo.. paid patches.. made by the community. Now I'm just getting out of hand here..

oh well.. just how much does gaming have to cost in the end.. and can nothing be free..

[TheStoryteller01]

RedLightning の投稿を引用：

TheStoryteller01 の投稿を引用：

I was strongly and passionately against paid mods for Skyrim in the Workshop, mainly because I found it the perfectly wrong game and community to choose for an experiment.

But I am neither against paid mods in general nor do I think that it can't work.

And the argument if paid mods make better mods has to be settled one way or the other - and the sooner, the better.

I am not even opposed to the next FO or TES having paid mods.

IF such a feature is announced and implemented from the start and accompanied by a comprehensive and firm set of rules and guidelines, I would consider that to be fair and square.

And if Bethesda would be willing to risk one of their flagship franchises to try it out, I would be willing to give it a chance.

Of course they would be willing to risk it.. Anything for a cut of the money.

Say this "paid mods" crap finally gets "mainstreamed" and Bethesda and others are enjoying the profits..

Now .. they want more money.. I wonder just how low they will get to make more. as it stands they made a boatload of money selling games without any tangable product included.. now they gotta get more money..

and more...

and more.

oh yea.. and more.

All they care about is a cut.. nothing more. Yet.. especially with bethesda.. leave the work of bugfixing their game to the community.. in the shape of "free unofficial, unsupported, fixes.." hey wait.. they could charge for that tooo.. paid patches.. made by the community. Now I'm just getting out of hand here..

oh well.. just how much does gaming have to cost in the end.. and can nothing be free..

Well, everytime I create my own adventure for a pen&paper RPG round or a scenario for a tabletop, WoTC (or Chaosium, GW or whoever) doesn't get a cut. ^^

[Insanity Claus]

TheStoryteller01 の投稿を引用：

RedLightning の投稿を引用：

Of course they would be willing to risk it.. Anything for a cut of the money.

Say this "paid mods" crap finally gets "mainstreamed" and Bethesda and others are enjoying the profits..

Now .. they want more money.. I wonder just how low they will get to make more. as it stands they made a boatload of money selling games without any tangable product included.. now they gotta get more money..

and more...

and more.

oh yea.. and more.

All they care about is a cut.. nothing more. Yet.. especially with bethesda.. leave the work of bugfixing their game to the community.. in the shape of "free unofficial, unsupported, fixes.." hey wait.. they could charge for that tooo.. paid patches.. made by the community. Now I'm just getting out of hand here..

oh well.. just how much does gaming have to cost in the end.. and can nothing be free..

Well, everytime I create my own adventure for a pen&paper RPG round or a scenario for a tabletop, WoTC (or Chaosium, GW or whoever) doesn't get a cut. ^^

If you try to sell it using elements of licesnes, you better believe they want a cut of that.

I keep hearing people talk about this like its a zero-sum game. It's not. If someone makes a crap mod and charges a lot for it, there is absolutely nothing to stop another modder or group of modders from making the exact same thing and releasing it for free. Hell, you, yourselves, could go and learn how to mod and then you wouldn't have to rely on someone else.

Also, this idea that Bethesda and others would release broken games and rely on the community to fix them, and then charge for it, is really stretching it. This is some far-grasping conspiracy theory drivel that has no basis in reality. If we're going to dream of "what if?" horror scenarios, then the sky is the limit when it comes to whatever inanity one wants to think of.

The truth is, modders don't want to spend their time playing a broken game. And if a game is thoroughly broken at release, then not many people are even going to buy it. Making the point of moddinjg a for-pay patch even more useless. Why spend time making a for-pay mod of a game that no one wants to play? And if reactions to paid mods of any kind, regardless of their breadth and quality, is so vehement, then what chance do you think someone has of actually selling a patch for a game?

This conspiracy drivel relies on people being completely braindead, and despite whatever you may believe, the general public isn't as stupid as you paint in your perfect-storm scenarios.

Also, it should be noted that Bethesda and manyu other developers/publishers do heavily invest in bug-fixing. To say that Bethesda just doesn't care about the quality of their games is bizarre-o-world thinking that has no factual basis to stand on. It's simply a strawman that some have invented to bolster their absurd claims.

If you don't like paid modding, then rock on with your beliefs, but this dreaming up of perfect nightmare situations is simply not based in reality. It is Chicken Little squawking about the sky falling. There certainly were notable issues, like the idea of no curating of content was a terrible stance to take, but I understand that Bethesda wanted the community to largely police itself rather than having to be ones to lay down who does and does not get to charge for mods.

The truth is that this was an idea that had some very positive merits and most certainly had some issues with its implementation, but we'll never know how this kind of thing would have panned out because a very vocal segment decided to dream up everything wrong and never bothered to give even the slightest bit of the benefit of the doubt. And it's this kind of blinders-fueled cynicism that is creating and overwhelmingly hostile environment for people that actually make the content that so many of you enjoy. Not just mods, but games, too.

The truth is that someone who can get some funds from one of their mods is more likely to devote more of their time to making more content. If they have a choice between sinking 100+ hours in making content for others for free, or working their job to earn a living and spend their free time with friends and family, guess which one they are going to choose.

Again, the implementation wasn't done well, but the idea that people should just suck it up and face the fact that they cannot and will not ever be able to earn some funds from their work (and, yes, it's still work even though it's done on their free time) is obnoxious. Especially coming from the mouths of so many that simply don't care how much time and effort went into something, because they ultimately just want to enjoy the labors of others for free.

as it stands they made a boatload of money selling games without any tangable product included

The above is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Yeah, Bethesda sells games "without any tangable product included." Seriously, anyone who thinks that should just go ♥♥♥♥ off and try living their lives only on their subsistence. The willful ignorance and this kind of blatantly disingenuous cynicism does absolutely nothing. Honestly, I wish 90% of the gaming companies just went bankrupt tomorrow. Then we can see how well all these brats who think Skyrim was "without any tangable product included" manage to step up and put their money where their mouths are. I have a feeling that the end-result would likely be the same as it is now: they won't do anything but complain about how people need to do more for them for free, while they yell at their parents to bring them more food.

[DevoidChaos]

I'm sure that I'm probably in the minority here but some of us pc gamers are using patchwork computers and playing games on a super tight budget, and while I would certainly donate if could I just don't have the money. and I can't afford to be nickel and dimed to mod a game like Skyrim or Fallout (which I don't have, I know) to extend the life of the game (i know your just going to say GET A JOB, but as much as I would like to, I can't)

[TheStoryteller01]

DevoidChaos の投稿を引用：

I'm sure that I'm probably in the minority here but some of us pc gamers are using patchwork computers and playing games on a super tight budget, and while I would certainly donate if could I just don't have the money. and I can't afford to be nickel and dimed to mod a game like Skyrim or Fallout (which I don't have, I know) to extend the life of the game (i know your just going to say GET A JOB, but as much as I would like to, I can't)

I think everybody has been on a tight budget at some point in his live. Maybe our parents couldn't afford buying us a new PC or games, maybe taking our own kids on a holiday was more important than our gaming, maybe we where out of work, badly sick or had to support some family member.

I've been there too - and maybe when I'm long retired I'll be there again *knocks on wood*. But these are the times when someone tells you: "You know, I can *get* you some new games for free." you can draw the line and tell him: "Thanks, pal but there's no need. I still got a load of mods for my old games to play. I'm fine."

As I said, I'm not generally against paid mods. Just saying a big thanks to everyone who has, is or will create quality mods for free.

[Start_Running]

DevoidChaos の投稿を引用：

I'm sure that I'm probably in the minority here but some of us pc gamers are using patchwork computers and playing games on a super tight budget, and while I would certainly donate if could I just don't have the money. and I can't afford to be nickel and dimed to mod a game like Skyrim or Fallout (which I don't have, I know) to extend the life of the game (i know your just going to say GET A JOB, but as much as I would like to, I can't)

That's life. No one every promised you'd be able to afford everything you wanted to buy, just like no one promised you'd have the time to do everything you wanted. CHoices and sacrifices must be made. If a game is too expensive for you or in this case a mod... then well.. you do without Unitilthe expense is no longer an issue. Or you sacrifice buying something else. I mean no one likes being nickle and dimed and if you see such a practice then well, steer clear of that game. That's what got me out of WoW.

[WhiteKnight77]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

supertrooper225 の投稿を引用：

Any integrity gaming had left was lit on fire by gamers who think that being cheap is 'having integrity'.

Saddly The irony is Paid mods have been working well for over 6 years. What did you thing FGary's Mod was, or a thorid of the items of in TF2, heck, The invasion release recently was community made., IT's a matter of your consumer base.

It works. Problem is, people don't want to pay for the stuff. They talk about $5 horse armor mods when what they really orry about is $5 Skyruim Ui.

Payware mods have been around more than 6 years.

[Devious]

I'd suggest an alternate systems for paid mods, which could beneficiate both players, modders and developers. Say Bethesda wanted to explore the idea once more:

In addition to an universal donation button, Bethesda could fund a limited number of huge, ambitious, high quality mods (such Project Brazil, Enderal, Falskaar, Skywind, etc.) and thus contract mod creators and teams to help them complete their projects. After release, the mods are sold at 2.49-9.99$ as unofficial DLCs, with Beth and the modders sharing the profits evenly (due to increased involvement on Beth's part, I think a 50/50 split would be more fair in this case). Think of it as patronage of the arts.

As a result:

• You won't have to spend hundreds to maintain your current modding habits.
• The creation of a market for professional mods doesn't come at the expense of free mods.
• The best modders can easily make a name for themselves and live off their hobby.
• The community doesn't break apart over mod-related infighting.
• Ambitious projects aren't lost and forgotten in a sea of lesser mods.
• Most free mods will be made with paid mod compatibility in mind.
• Paid mods get appropriately tested for bugs and glitches.
• Regular updates guaranteed both by the modders and the devs.
• Much less likely to get scammed with Bethesda's name attached.
• Mod makers create their own content with Bethesda's help.
• Bethesda has incentive not to invest in and sell mods few will want to buy.
• Devs makes huge profits from modding, and will thus continue to support it.
• Nexus doesn't get callously shafted for competing with Bethesda.net
• Encourages other AAA companies to invest in PC gaming and modding.
• Sets an ethical and profitable standard for paid modding in all games.

[*KIRT]

I'll just leave this here :-)

[76561198001062896]

I rather see the old system that exist on nexus where people can donate to mod creators if they wish

as they say: what is not broken doesnt need to be fixed


simply put: modders always had the possibilty to ask for money for their mods (if they really wanted) to even before this whole paid mods drama broke out but it says a lot how quickly everybody jumped on the train and put their stuff behind a paywall

This is the part which makes me wonder if those mod makers really deserve to be part of the modding community. I have zero problem with people asking for donation for their mods, but it makes me cringe when people went ahead to support that broken-ass system that encouraged nickle and diming and moreso stealing others mod in order to make a profit of it

As they say: Ethics and all that stuff is quickly thrown out the window when there is some money involved and this whole mod drama showed perfectly the quite ugly face of the modding community in my opinion.

IF anybody really thinks that the implementation of paid mods was meant to give modders more options, you really need to wake up and realise that it was just a good way for Bethesda to milk people who really believe their PR talk. They couldnt give less crap about neither the modders or the community

[Start_Running]

Zetikla の投稿を引用：

I rather see the old system that exist on nexus where people can donate to mod creators if they wish

as they say: what is not broken doesnt need to be fixed

except that , such a system is less useful to the modder. I mean if you reach the point where you want to be paid for your hard work. You can't depend on donations. Since we all know at best a a 6th of those who download will actually bother to donate.

simply put: modders always had the possibilty to ask for money for their mods (if they really wanted) to even before this whole paid mods drama broke out but it says a lot how quickly everybody jumped on the train and put their stuff behind a paywall

Not legally. Oh they could ask for donations but the more they do that the more they run the risk of running afoul of copyright.

This is the part which makes me wonder if those mod makers really deserve to be part of the modding community. I have zero problem with people asking for donation for their mods, but it makes me cringe when people went ahead to support that broken-ass system that encouraged nickle and diming and moreso stealing others mod in order to make a profit of it

How can you steal something that is given freely?

As they say: Ethics and all that stuff is quickly thrown out the window when there is some money involved and this whole mod drama showed perfectly the quite ugly face of the modding community in my opinion.

Actually it's more the inverse. Where money is invoplved, rules become establishedquickly and costly penlties for the breaking of said rules are enacted. All the ethical concerns are no different from the current system except that one side is making money off of it. And technically that was the case before as well.. with the whole donation thing.

IF anybody really thinks that the implementation of paid mods was meant to give modders more options, you really need to wake up and realise that it was just a good way for Bethesda to milk people who really believe their PR talk. They couldnt give less crap about neither the modders or the community

It's not a binary. It can be both. You don't get rich without making someone else richer.. RUle of business. PAid modding provided a good interim step between giving your stuff away for free and expensive licensing.

[Zefar]

If they want it to work it needs limits.

To make modders work for to be able to get to put up a paid mod.

Lets say you need to have about 5 mods with high rating before you can make one paid mod. Also if you remove any previous mods you lose the right to charge for the mod.

Then add in more limits to just stop it from going completely messy.

It really could work and it would give Modders a reason to make good content. But without limits you get chaos that will never ever end up well. I just don't see how the Developers of either side didn't see that issue. It would be blatantly clear that it would be a problem.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

gallifrey の投稿を引用：

The query raises a number of issues.

Like the in your face adverts say intellectual property is still property and stealing it is theft. The producers of the new James Bond film "Spectre" have spent £226 million making the film so it shouldn't be open to some toerag working a car boot sale to make thousands of pounds popping pirate copies out at £3.00 a time. I think intellectual property needs to be limited in time however and some period proportionate to an artist's lifetime would be appropriate.

Mods operate in a legal limbo however. Most undoubtedly breach the game owner's copyright. Since they often involve porting in bits from other games they are breaching other people's copyright too.

So modders who want to charge will have to move beyond the crutch of leaning on someone else's creativity. I can see no downside to that.

Usually developers love modding since it extends value to their games without them having to lift a finger.

Bot not always. Pre Marvel and DC jointly copywriting masked superheros en masse in the USA the makers of "Freedom Force" ran into problems because modders were using the tools in the game to create facsimilies of Marvel and DC heroes (of course there was some argument that some of the vanilla content of "Freedom Force" was a very close facsimile of Marvel and DC characters). This is where the real debates about intellectual property begin. None of the characters in "Freedom Force" had the exact name and costume of a DC or Marvel character (except Ant Man where I couldn't see the difference) but the entire look of the game and game style was clearly lifted from the silver era of comics. But "Freedom Force" arguably is the best superhero game that there has ever been. This wasn't some cheap rip off exploiting someone else's ideas but a labour of love, a work of art. The gamer in me regrets there will be no Freedom Force 3, no further adventures for Patriot, El Diablo, Eve, Timemaster (not Mentor - I never REALLY liked Mentor).

Marvel and DC could whine all they want but here's the thing. When it comes to chracters,
fictional and otherwise... the copywrights are very specific.

The main reason there will be no Freedom Force 3 is that the main studio crumbled and the new owners really don't see it as worth the money. It'd be much mor lucrative to work with marvel and piggy back off their franchises . It's not copyright issues but general corporate laziness.

The other issue is charges for games and content. New games tend to retail in the U.K for circa £40.00 (multiply by 1.5 for USD) for AAA popular new releases down to about £5.00 for indie games. You can multiply that figure by 1.5 to 2 for E.A. and Origin. However over time the economics of gaming (high development costs, now very low production and distribution costs) mean that MOST games rapidly and strongly reduce in price over time. So a game that was selling for £40 three years ago can sell for £5.00 or less in the sales.

This has the frankly irrational looking consequence that a single taunt for the free to play (now) game TF2 costs more than Terraria (the entire game).

Irrelevant. there are plenty enough games that buck that trend. Usually most of the deeper sales are tied to franchise promotion. For example the current fall out sale is being done as a way to rope new commers into the franchise in preparartuion for FO4.

So if people purchased logically mods should only sell for a small fraction of what the game sells for.

That logic does not add up. The value of any creative or artistic work is determined between the creator and the buyer, Mostly the creator. the creator sets the price at what the time and effort that went into the production was worth to them. The buyer pays what they feel the projected entertainment value will be worth to them.

This is why some paintings will sell for $100 and others will sell for $10000. Usually helps if the creator is dead.

There's also the issue that many gamers are now very wary of paid additional content after a significant number of recent major releases seemed to have held back core content of the game to sell as DLC.

DLC used incorrectly is still DLC and apparently it doesn't hurt the bottom line since they keep doing it..

As a consumer I'd be more interested in buying "Update Packs" directly from the developers with lots of additional content in each one rather than individual additions from independent modders when I don't know if there might be compatability problems.

You basically just came up with a new name for DLC

I do not have a problem with DLC which are simply additions and add-ons to the game.

What I do have a problem with are: -

1) Developers who held back what should have been core content of the game to sell as DLC
2) In Player vs Player games in particular selling DLC which is expensive for the content but which gives players who bought it significant in game advantages
3) And generally selling DLC which is expensive for the content.

I think Start Running is right on this point. I think paid Mods will only work as DLC where the devs take the responsibilty for all compatibility and game balance issues.

In relation to Skyrim paid mods involved Bethseda and Steam weighing in sudenly to charge (and take the largest amount of the revenue) from mods that had been originally free.

What happens to paid mods without the official seal of approval ? Developers may take a dim view of some rogue genius of a modder whose creations are more popular and more successful than their original game. They certainly do in TF2 where those "mods" give players unearned advantages - although not thoroughly enough for the comfort of honest TF2 players.

I think the business model that would work would be: -

1) Mods stay free.
2) HOWEVER the devs will keep an eye on the most skilled and talented modders.
3) These will be invited/ recruited by the developers to create additional content for their games. The devs will take responsibility for compatibility and quality control. There will be an agreed percentage of sales between developers, retailers, and the modders. Mods will be generally sold in large packs with lots of different material with agreed points splits for different sorts of mods.

S.x.

[Start_Running]

gallifrey の投稿を引用：

I do not have a problem with DLC which are simply additions and add-ons to the game.

What I do have a problem with are: -

1) Developers who held back what should have been core content of the game to sell as DLC

You can't really tell the difference that readily unfortunately. IN many cases Content is cut simply because of the need to meet a release deadline. That's a reality of development. Also content that you think should have been core can in many cases be genuinely new since no one on the dev team thought of it during development.

2) In Player vs Player games in particular selling DLC which is expensive for the content but which gives players who bought it significant in game advantages

While I do dislike it. Again people often complain that the stuff they buy has no in game effect, just cosmenbtic. So again, it's a matter of who's looking. You don't like it. Others do,

3) And generally selling DLC which is expensive for the content.

To most consumers , anything over $5 is too expensive for any amount of content.


So your three points are basically based on the consumers severely tunneled perception. See where that doesn't work?

I think Start Running is right on this point. I think paid Mods will only work as DLC where the devs take the responsibilty for all compatibility and game balance issues.

As said. If a mod developer wants to get paid they have to raise their bar to professional levels.. That said. Ensuring compatability with other mods is not so much the way to go. If you look at Software Platforms. You don't look at every other piece of software when developing your own. No you simply follow published guidelines that all software is expected to.

Just as Valve has clear guide lines for Items designd for CS:GO, TF2 and DOta2, same here.. There is always a risk of some mods not working with others but in such a case one can refund or simply turn of the mod which i causing the incompatability.

In relation to Skyrim paid mods involved Bethseda and Steam weighing in sudenly to charge (and take the largest amount of the revenue) from mods that had been originally free.

Again with the revenue. As has been said buy everyone who has ever actually ben party to a license or royalty deal. The modders were getting a honey of a deal. J. K Rowling wishes she got that much royalty on her Harry Potter Books.

What happens to paid mods without the official seal of approval ? Developers may take a dim view of some rogue genius of a modder whose creations are more popular and more successful than their original game. They certainly do in TF2 where those "mods" give players unearned advantages - although not thoroughly enough for the comfort of honest TF2 players.

if it doesn't get Bethesda's seal of approval then the Modder cannot charge for it, but they can still distribute it for free. Simple.. Nothing about how Behesdawas doing it would have prevented a modder from keeping their work free. Except the modder's own petting envy.

2) HOWEVER the devs will keep an eye on the most skilled and talented modders.
3) These will be invited/ recruited by the developers to create additional content for their games. The devs will take responsibility for compatibility and quality control. There will be an agreed percentage of sales between developers, retailers, and the modders. Mods will be generally sold in large packs with lots of different material with agreed points splits for different sorts of mods.

So the gatekeeper approach. Which has been nothing more than a means of excluding talent from the market space as opposed to recognizing talent. That's not a step forwward, that's a step backward. Who better to say a modder is talented than the people who find his/her work worthy of their money?

Developers who really really want can now develop their own mods as standalone games...but of course that is extremely expensive as anyone who has done so will tell you.


It boils down to. Gamers don't really want to pay for good modded content. They want the option of paying so thy can then enjoy it and trust someone else to pay the guy who developed it. Which is more or less how the system works.