How Can Paid Mods be Done Right?

[urknighterrant]

Paid mods for Skyrim was a disaster. Nobody will deny that, but I don't think it's an intrinsically bad idea. IMHO it only failed this time because it was implemented stupidly. 

It should never have been implemented in a game with an established modding community. That was their biggest mistake. Any idiot could have told them it would be an invitation to rampant theft. 

The best mods are done by whole teams, but the workshop didn't allow for profit splitting or payment through an organization like an escrow service. This in and of itself was enough to make a mockery of any claims that it would encourage "higher quality mods".

So I've been thinking... how could this be done RIGHT. 

Paid modding isn't an intrinsically bad idea, but the industry needs to learn from these mistakes.

I also had a couple other thoughts. 

It seems to me that the idea of professional modding needs to be done as a core game concept, not an aside (much less years after release). This way mods can be tied to the license attached to the toolset used to develop them and the community knows right from the start they have a certain responsibility to protect their ideas. The core system could also allow modders to leave secret "signatures" in their code that would automatically detect unauthorized use of someone else's code. These types of functions would be easy to implement and a very effective way to further deter theft. 

Participation should not be free, automated, or anonymous. Once you start taking money you lose the right to hide behind a username. Participation should be verified through a mailing address (the same way Google verifies business owners) and checks should be mailed making fraud and theft much more dangerous for scammers. A small registration fee, say $100, should be more than adequate to keep munchkin level griefers away and pay the game publisher to administer registrations. Postage and mailing service fees can be deducted from the modder's cut. 

The modder should get the lions share of the payments. Apple's 70-30 split seems like a fair model. 

Oh... and as a modder I don't like the lifespan of my mod dictated by the participation of an outside server. When it's done right professional modding will probably be done as a Peer to Peer client in-game rather than through a digital distributor like steam.

[Ambivalent]

With ad blocker built in steam sure i don't mind.

The thing is one can't simply force people to pay for fan fiction so to speak.

[WhiteKnight77]

If Valve wants to see about getting into the payware mod business, they need to look to the flight sim and train sim communities who have large payware mod businesses. Of course, it is rare for a mod to tie into another mod and modders would need to create complete mods themselves, but it is doable. There has been a vibrant payware mod business for years and no developer of the game gets a cut. It is fine for the host of the mod to get a cut for having on their servers and to pay for the bandwidth, but they need to ensure that the modder(s) get the biggest portion of it as previously stated.

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

Tux の投稿を引用：

that logic discounts pretty much every indie venture ever made.

exactly how do you define 'free time' is 'unfree time' ONLY time that is paid for by an employer?
what about an indie project?
isnt modding basically an indie project?

I do believe copyrighting art, science, actually anything that should be for "the masses" is stealing in legal form which also slows the process of getting forward.(aka if there wasn't open source we were still using winamp, basic reskins, pirated photoshop etc)

Apple for example copyrights everything to "rob" people even companies off. If you see no problem with that that's okay.

As long as people start to pay Da Vinci's grand grand children for using google image search to see Mona Lisa i won't change my mind anyway.

And before taking flames about this i'm a musician myself, after i can finish my unending process of recording stuff anyone can feel free to use it, i'll be glad even.

So in short and on topic. I can pay for the engine to use, game itself, DLC, expansion but rest i'm not really sure.

I haven't payed for fan fiction at deviantart aswell, should i? If yes, where it will end? Should we pay money to Newton to use calculus or he's an old unlucky lived in a distant past that couldn't register his work?

TLDR: Art is for people except for jesters that want rewards for their "art".

PS: Probably too hypothetical for Steam forums but still can't resist.

Eh, copyright protects people from others wanting to use their work improperly. The second I press the button on my camera, I have a copyright for the picture I just took. If I choose to let someone use it (license it), I can get paid for it if I so choose to and can restrict how my photo is used and if it isn't used, I can revoke its use.

Apple patents objects and other obtuse items and that is what Apple is using to sue others to "rob" them. Think about it, rounded corner rectangles are everywhere in life, yet Apple has a patent for a shape.

Also, the word is paid, not payed. Payed refers to something done with rope and since rope is not the topic of this thread, it is not the right word to use.

[charliedrex]

Note: the hearts in my post are not me swearing, it's the name of a popular overhaul mod that, in retrospect, has certain... Connotations. That's what it's called, though.

[urknighterrant]

Look, I don't have a lot of time to address or even fully explore all the amazing posts on this thread, but I feel something important needs to be addressed here.

In the interests of full disclosure, I am not a Skyrim modder. I have done a lot of modding in my day, but I never really took a shine to any of the Elder Scrolls toolset. I started modding before some of you were born with Mech Commander 2 More recently I did a lot of work in NWN and NWN2.
http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/prefab/area/urks-169-horse-stable-system
http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/script/urks-random-one-liners-npcs

I'm currently pretty dormant. Having a 3yo son kinda cuts into your modding time.

ANYWAY... as a modder comments like this just plain aggravate me...

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

Something which is done by fun in free time can't have a mandatory payment. Sure ask for donations, adverts, sponsors whatever but art shouldn't hide behind a paywall.

I really wonder how much money would Mona Lisa make tbh. Poor old Da Vinci borned to a wrong era.

You do know that Da Vinchi was a professional artist, right? People pay for art. They have for thousands of years. If they didn't artists would only live a week or so before starving to death.

But that's not the point I'm trying to address here. It's comments like this...

MrSpeedNut の投稿を引用：

Well I always though modding was volinteer, you get praise for your work and mybe even a donation as your reward. Should not change at all.
If you saw an older lady (someones grandma) need help crossing the street would you say I'll do it for 3.99.
You have a friend who is real good to you has repaierd your pc for free when ever needed and never asks for anything becouse you do great modding free for people, Then He sees you work now with 100.00 price tag, your next repair wont be free....
Its like pay it forward I got a free mod love it,, Old lady down the road need help ...you do it free....

So some things should never have a price tag...

These comments are not just offensive because the presume a proprietary right to my time, they also represent a childish naivte in regards to what the modding community is about. Yes... we do what we do for the love of the game... but we don't give it away out of the kindness of our hearts or out of some juvenile need for praise and/or recognition. We give it away because it's against the law to sell it under the conditions we agree to when we install the games and mod tools we work with.

You do not have some kind of intrinsic entitlement to our work. If a developer wants to expand that license to allow us to sell our mods that represents a shift in thinking that we would all welcome.

Free mods will continue to exist. We often rip assets from other games or emulate IP we could never legally sell with or without the developers permission. We often use art and music assets that we don't actually own and it would be illegal and immoral to charge for them. Some mods are just small simple tweaks that wouldn't really justify spending money.

But some mods are AWESOME; better than official content and more than deserving of financial reciprocation. Some mods are unique works depending only on unique assets and assets included in the game. There is no reason; legal, ethical, or moral; that both the game publisher and modders alike shouldn't profit by these.

[supertrooper225]

urknighterrant の投稿を引用：

Look, I don't have a lot of time to address or even fully explore all the amazing posts on this thread, but I feel something important needs to be addressed here.

In the interests of full disclosure, I am not a Skyrim modder. I have done a lot of modding in my day, but I never really took a shine to any of the Elder Scrolls toolset. I started modding before some of you were born with Mech Commander 2 More recently I did a lot of work in NWN and NWN2.
http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/prefab/area/urks-169-horse-stable-system
http://neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/script/urks-random-one-liners-npcs

I'm currently pretty dormant. Having a 3yo son kinda cuts into your modding time.

ANYWAY... as a modder comments like this just plain aggravate me...

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

Something which is done by fun in free time can't have a mandatory payment. Sure ask for donations, adverts, sponsors whatever but art shouldn't hide behind a paywall.

I really wonder how much money would Mona Lisa make tbh. Poor old Da Vinci borned to a wrong era.

You do know that Da Vinchi was a professional artist, right? People pay for art. They have for thousands of years. If they didn't artists would only live a week or so before starving to death.

But that's not the point I'm trying to address here. It's comments like this...

MrSpeedNut の投稿を引用：

Well I always though modding was volinteer, you get praise for your work and mybe even a donation as your reward. Should not change at all.
If you saw an older lady (someones grandma) need help crossing the street would you say I'll do it for 3.99.
You have a friend who is real good to you has repaierd your pc for free when ever needed and never asks for anything becouse you do great modding free for people, Then He sees you work now with 100.00 price tag, your next repair wont be free....
Its like pay it forward I got a free mod love it,, Old lady down the road need help ...you do it free....

So some things should never have a price tag...

These comments are not just offensive because the presume a proprietary right to my time, they also represent a childish naivte in regards to what the modding community is about. Yes... we do what we do for the love of the game... but we don't give it away out of the kindness of our hearts or out of some juvenile need for praise and/or recognition. We give it away because it's against the law to sell it under the conditions we agree to when we install the games and mod tools we work with.

You do not have some kind of intrinsic entitlement to our work. If a developer wants to expand that license to allow us to sell our mods that represents a shift in thinking that we would all welcome.

Free mods will continue to exist. We often rip assets from other games or emulate IP we could never legally sell with or without the developers permission. We often use art and music assets that we don't actually own and it would be illegal and immoral to charge for them. Some mods are just small simple tweaks that wouldn't really justify spending money.

But some mods are AWESOME; better than official content and more than deserving of financial reciprocation. Some mods are unique works depending only on unique assets and assets included in the game. There is no reason; legal, ethical, or moral; that both the game publisher and modders alike shouldn't profit by these.

I completely agree with you man. I have no idea why some people think they are just entitled to people's work for free without giving the modder the choice. It is downright disrespectful in my opinion. And people jumped the gun and just assumed giving modders the choice would make them greedy and end the entire concept of the free mod. It got totally ridiculous. Now they are saying they do care....but they only want modders to have a donation button. It is a joke.

With that said, there are some who have other reasons why they didn't want this plan in.

[Ambivalent]

urknighterrant の投稿を引用：

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

Something which is done by fun in free time can't have a mandatory payment. Sure ask for donations, adverts, sponsors whatever but art shouldn't hide behind a paywall.

I really wonder how much money would Mona Lisa make tbh. Poor old Da Vinci borned to a wrong era.

You do know that Da Vinchi was a professional artist, right? People pay for art. They have for thousands of years. If they didn't artists would only live a week or so before starving to death.

Exactly.

He was professional while modders are not. At least not yet.(There are modders became developers, which means they became professionals)

If Da Vinci was plumber and doing drawings at his free time he wouldn't get paid. Or at least not that much. (aka people would donate him at most)

[supertrooper225]

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

urknighterrant の投稿を引用：

You do know that Da Vinchi was a professional artist, right? People pay for art. They have for thousands of years. If they didn't artists would only live a week or so before starving to death.

Exactly.

He was professional while modders are not. At least not yet.(There are modders became developers, which means they became professionals)

If Da Vinci was plumber and doing drawings at his free time he wouldn't get paid. Or at least not that much. (aka people would donate him at most)

Kurt Cobain was homeless when he wrote some of the greatest music of the 90's. So that doesn't really fly.

[Ambivalent]

supertrooper225 の投稿を引用：

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

Exactly.

He was professional while modders are not. At least not yet.(There are modders became developers, which means they became professionals)

If Da Vinci was plumber and doing drawings at his free time he wouldn't get paid. Or at least not that much. (aka people would donate him at most)

Kurt Cobain was homeless when he released the greatest album of the 90's. So that doesn't really fly.

I am pretty sure it wasn't a cover album though.

[Dragonspride1995]

Hey guys stop nittpicking at his statment... he got his point across.

[urknighterrant]

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

urknighterrant の投稿を引用：

You do know that Da Vinchi was a professional artist, right? People pay for art. They have for thousands of years. If they didn't artists would only live a week or so before starving to death.

Exactly.

He was professional while modders are not. At least not yet.(There are modders became developers, which means they became professionals)

If Da Vinci was plumber and doing drawings at his free time he wouldn't get paid. Or at least not that much. (aka people would donate him at most)

That makes NO sense. Davinci was only a professional because he got paid for his work. If a modder makes a mod that's good enough to sell and the games publisher is willing to license him to do so he becomes a professional.

And just FYI if Davinci was a plumber and he sold a painting... even a bad one... even for just a penny... he would become a professional. You do realize that most professional artists have to supplement their incomes with "straight jobs". Fewer than 1% of Equity members (the professional stage actors union) actually make a living at acting. They are still professionals (you can't get an equity card without getting a paid gig) but there just isn't enough work for all of them to work all the time.

The idea that you can only be a plumber OR an artist is a childish false dichotomy.

[supertrooper225]

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

supertrooper225 の投稿を引用：

Kurt Cobain was homeless when he released the greatest album of the 90's. So that doesn't really fly.

I am pretty sure it wasn't a cover album though.

It doesn't take 100-200 team of people to write a skeleton of a song either. But no, it wasn't a cover album. But he did write art in his spare time and he did get paid for it. I am just saying man...people do it.

I can also go down to my local bar and play out for a night using covers....and get paid good money. I can see where you are coming from though, I just don't think it quite fits here. No offense intended. I am not trying to be a douche or anything.

[Tux]

in a larger economic view points I do not agree
It says that the only value gamers can provide to the economy as enthusaits is to get people to buy things that are usually not even related, like soap

I have been looking for ways to make part time money doing things that are enjoyable and I avoid advertising venues because it feels to me that I would really be working for Tide and not myself

[Gunsaremagic]

God. The answer is donate button why is valve and bethesda so stupid

[WhiteKnight77]

Ambivalent の投稿を引用：

urknighterrant の投稿を引用：

You do know that Da Vinchi was a professional artist, right? People pay for art. They have for thousands of years. If they didn't artists would only live a week or so before starving to death.

Exactly.

He was professional while modders are not. At least not yet.(There are modders became developers, which means they became professionals)

If Da Vinci was plumber and doing drawings at his free time he wouldn't get paid. Or at least not that much. (aka people would donate him at most)

There are many modders who do get paid and work a "day" job on top of their modding business. You seem to get many things confused. Modding can be a "side job" for those who wish to do so. They do nto have to be "professional" about it. I am an inspector, but I canbuild PCs for others if they want and I can either do it for free or I can charge if I want (but there are other reasons to not do so) for the assembly of such due to my knowledge.

If I offer to do something, I do not expect payment. If you come to me and ask if I would do something, I may ask for money for my time. Case in point, I was a mechanic, but the property owner of the apartments were I live was interested in me cutting the grass. I am not a professional yard man and I still got paid to cut the grass on top of my salary for fixing cars during the day.

[Cain]

Donation Button