How Can Paid Mods be Done Right?

[urknighterrant]

Paid mods for Skyrim was a disaster. Nobody will deny that, but I don't think it's an intrinsically bad idea. IMHO it only failed this time because it was implemented stupidly. 

It should never have been implemented in a game with an established modding community. That was their biggest mistake. Any idiot could have told them it would be an invitation to rampant theft. 

The best mods are done by whole teams, but the workshop didn't allow for profit splitting or payment through an organization like an escrow service. This in and of itself was enough to make a mockery of any claims that it would encourage "higher quality mods".

So I've been thinking... how could this be done RIGHT. 

Paid modding isn't an intrinsically bad idea, but the industry needs to learn from these mistakes.

I also had a couple other thoughts. 

It seems to me that the idea of professional modding needs to be done as a core game concept, not an aside (much less years after release). This way mods can be tied to the license attached to the toolset used to develop them and the community knows right from the start they have a certain responsibility to protect their ideas. The core system could also allow modders to leave secret "signatures" in their code that would automatically detect unauthorized use of someone else's code. These types of functions would be easy to implement and a very effective way to further deter theft. 

Participation should not be free, automated, or anonymous. Once you start taking money you lose the right to hide behind a username. Participation should be verified through a mailing address (the same way Google verifies business owners) and checks should be mailed making fraud and theft much more dangerous for scammers. A small registration fee, say $100, should be more than adequate to keep munchkin level griefers away and pay the game publisher to administer registrations. Postage and mailing service fees can be deducted from the modder's cut. 

The modder should get the lions share of the payments. Apple's 70-30 split seems like a fair model. 

Oh... and as a modder I don't like the lifespan of my mod dictated by the participation of an outside server. When it's done right professional modding will probably be done as a Peer to Peer client in-game rather than through a digital distributor like steam.

[supertrooper225]

I still think modders deserve the right to sell their work if the quality is high. A big part would be doing like what you say, a 70-30 split in favor of the modder. It is hard for me to imagine a big publisher taking that, but it would go a long way to making the system more accepted. In terms of other ways, making a more clearly defined rule set as to what mods are acceptable and making sure a modder is obligated to keeping his mod patched up would also help out. There are plenty of ways the plan can be improved to be more tasteful to consumers while benefitting modders.

[Ambivalent]

Something which is done by fun in free time can't have a mandatory payment. Sure ask for donations, adverts, sponsors whatever but art shouldn't hide behind a paywall.

I really wonder how much money would Mona Lisa make tbh. Poor old Da Vinci borned to a wrong era.

[Tux]

finally some sanity to this matter!

1. I think games that have already been established with a modding community should either have free or extreemly low % to Valve and publisher.
2. I think the model of paid mods should be tried out with new games

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Ambivalent:

Something which is done by fun in free time can't have a mandatory payment. Sure ask for donations, adverts, sponsors whatever but art shouldn't hide behind a paywall.

I really wonder how much money would Mona Lisa make tbh. Poor old Da Vinci borned to a wrong era.

that logic discounts pretty much every indie venture ever made.

exactly how do you define 'free time' is 'unfree time' ONLY time that is paid for by an employer?
what about an indie project?
isnt modding basically an indie project?

[Illimitus]

Yes, but not as mods, but as DLCs supported formally by Bethesda in partnership with modders who want to "go pro".

Elder Scrolls 6 could encompass all of Tamriel, and perhaps even all of Nirn if they do this!

[supertrooper225]

Publicado originalmente por Illimitus:

Yes, but not as mods, but as DLCs supported formally by Bethesda in partnership with modders who want to "go pro".

Elder Scrolls 6 could encompass all of Tamriel, and perhaps even all of Nirn if they do this!

See that is the potential that I would like to see met with a program like this. Modders could make a game flat out unbelievable, not just an extra sword or something. But a big ass extension of the game with comparable quality to the main game.

[sick duck]

pay as you want.

basically just a fancy donate button.

Humble bundle has it. Can pay as little as you like, as much as you like to whoever you like. Last time I purchased from them they had some charity called childs play to split some of the money with.

[shoopy]

The same way that derivative works are NORMALLY done - invite the creator to license the work for monitization. You know, like how regular intelligent people have done for ages now.

Modders who want to sell their stuff should be grown up enough to also market it if they choose. I could understand using something like Workshop as an OPTION for promoting and selling mods, but having it be the primary or only way is not only in a sense treating modders and consumers like they are stupid, but it is also a big liability if/when things go wrong and people need to move.

One option is almost as bad as no option and there was really no mobility or room for negition on the part of the seller and that is something which should never happen (unless you're the mafia)

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por supertrooper225:

Publicado originalmente por Illimitus:

Yes, but not as mods, but as DLCs supported formally by Bethesda in partnership with modders who want to "go pro".

Elder Scrolls 6 could encompass all of Tamriel, and perhaps even all of Nirn if they do this!

See that is the potential that I would like to see met with a program like this. Modders could make a game flat out unbelievable, not just an extra sword or something. But a big ass extension of the game with comparable quality to the main game.

agreed.
I am not however a fan of the whole developer supports it idea.

I think given youtube and the general cost of these mods everything a gamer needs to know about a mod can be found out in about a hour AND it also allows for curators to have a hobby with a little extra coin. Rather than having a corporation basically tell gamers no. I perfer the word yes despites its risks

[Ambivalent]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por Ambivalent:

Something which is done by fun in free time can't have a mandatory payment. Sure ask for donations, adverts, sponsors whatever but art shouldn't hide behind a paywall.

I really wonder how much money would Mona Lisa make tbh. Poor old Da Vinci borned to a wrong era.

that logic discounts pretty much every indie venture ever made.

exactly how do you define 'free time' is 'unfree time' ONLY time that is paid for by an employer?
what about an indie project?
isnt modding basically an indie project?

I do believe copyrighting art, science, actually anything that should be for "the masses" is stealing in legal form which also slows the process of getting forward.(aka if there wasn't open source we were still using winamp, basic reskins, pirated photoshop etc)

Apple for example copyrights everything to "rob" people even companies off. If you see no problem with that that's okay.

As long as people start to pay Da Vinci's grand grand children for using google image search to see Mona Lisa i won't change my mind anyway.

And before taking flames about this i'm a musician myself, after i can finish my unending process of recording stuff anyone can feel free to use it, i'll be glad even.

So in short and on topic. I can pay for the engine to use, game itself, DLC, expansion but rest i'm not really sure.

I haven't payed for fan fiction at deviantart aswell, should i? If yes, where it will end? Should we pay money to Newton to use calculus or he's an old unlucky lived in a distant past that couldn't register his work?

TLDR: Art is for people except for jesters that want rewards for their "art".

PS: Probably too hypothetical for Steam forums but still can't resist.

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Ambivalent:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

that logic discounts pretty much every indie venture ever made.

exactly how do you define 'free time' is 'unfree time' ONLY time that is paid for by an employer?
what about an indie project?
isnt modding basically an indie project?

I do believe copyrighting art, science, actually anything that should be for "the masses" is stealing in legal form which also slows the process of getting forward.(aka if there wasn't open source we were still using winamp, basic reskins, pirating photoshop etc)

Apple for example copyrights everything to "rob" people even companies off. If you see no problem with that that's okay.

As long as people start to pay Da Vinci's grand grand children for using google image search to see Mona Lisa i won't change my mind anyway.

And before taking flames about this i'm a musician myself, after i can finish my unending process of recording stuff anyone can feel free to use it, i'll be glad even.

So in short and on topic. I can pay for the engine to use, game itself, DLC, expansion but rest i'm not really sure.

I haven't payed for fan fiction at deviantart aswell, should i? If yes, where it will end? Should we pay money to Newton to use calculus?

TLDR: Art is for people except for jesters that want rewards for their "art".

PS: Probably too hypothetical for Steam forums but still can't resist.

before you get to far into your rant step back a second and let me give you an example.

Lets say I quit my job and I start a business without a business name. I offer you a service that you pay for. Isnt that my 'free time'??????

you seem to think that everyone on the planet makes money thru employment only. That is not true a LOT of people do a whole variety of things for pay 'on their free time'

digest that please

[Dronekilz]

I think the modders should be able to work their way up to be able to sell. This separtes the amatures from the profesionals and you kinda of get an idea that the mod you're paying money for was made by a profesional not some guy that just learn 5 min ago.

[Ambivalent]

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

Publicado originalmente por Ambivalent:

I do believe copyrighting art, science, actually anything that should be for "the masses" is stealing in legal form which also slows the process of getting forward.(aka if there wasn't open source we were still using winamp, basic reskins, pirating photoshop etc)

Apple for example copyrights everything to "rob" people even companies off. If you see no problem with that that's okay.

As long as people start to pay Da Vinci's grand grand children for using google image search to see Mona Lisa i won't change my mind anyway.

And before taking flames about this i'm a musician myself, after i can finish my unending process of recording stuff anyone can feel free to use it, i'll be glad even.

So in short and on topic. I can pay for the engine to use, game itself, DLC, expansion but rest i'm not really sure.

I haven't payed for fan fiction at deviantart aswell, should i? If yes, where it will end? Should we pay money to Newton to use calculus?

TLDR: Art is for people except for jesters that want rewards for their "art".

PS: Probably too hypothetical for Steam forums but still can't resist.

before you get to far into your rant step back a second and let me give you an example.

Lets say I quit my job and I start a business without a business name. I offer you a service that you pay for. Isnt that my 'free time'??????

you seem to think that everyone on the planet makes money thru employment only. That is not true a LOT of people do a whole variety of things for pay 'on their free time'

digest that please

Heh, some guy volunteers to fix stuff then tries to charge people. It is not same thing as "starting your own job"

It is like i offer you to fix your lamb as a friend, you gave me an okay then i try to charge you.

Publicado originalmente por MrSpeedNut:

Well I always though modding was volinteer, you get praise for your work and mybe even a donation as your reward. Should not change at all.
If you saw an older lady (someones grandma) need help crossing the street would you say I'll do it for 3.99.
You have a friend who is real good to you has repaierd your pc for free when ever needed and never asks for anything becouse you do great modding free for people, Then He sees you work now with 100.00 price tag, your next repair wont be free....
Its like pay it forward I got a free mod love it,, Old lady down the road need help ...you do it free....

So some things should never have a price tag...

Exactly.

[IronTsunami]

The main thing about mods is the fact that the modders and the game creaters are separate in every way. Modders don't own the game, they don't make any money on the game being sold, they have absolutely no stake in it at all.

Why then do people mod? They love the game. In fact they love it enough to put other things they love into it, or attempt to make it better on their own. But they've never been had ties with the organization that made it. They don't get a cut of money. They do it for free. It's not because they have to; it's because they want to.

The biggest thing: copyrights. More often than not people will mod in things that cound be considered copyrighted. But at long as you are not directly making money for that copyrighted content, it doesn't matter. If you start selling mods that contain copyrights then it won't take very long until companies start to notice and there's an outcry.


You asked how to correctly implement something like this. Well, they kind of already have. Look at the Dota2 workshop. People spend tons of time creating outfits for heroes, custom ability icons, particle effects, and more. Valve sometimes takes these and implements the into the game, with the designer getting a cut of the sales.

But here's the thing. Once that happens, they become part of the game, not a mod. People can still freely mod their designs into the game without getting them into the workshop (of course only they can see it as opposed to all the members of a match).


The point is that mods are always separate from development of the game. They're purely optional, the code never exists in a player's files unless they want the mod, and the're done for free. That's just the way it's going to be.

[Tux]

Publicado originalmente por Ambivalent:

Publicado originalmente por Tux:

before you get to far into your rant step back a second and let me give you an example.

Lets say I quit my job and I start a business without a business name. I offer you a service that you pay for. Isnt that my 'free time'??????

you seem to think that everyone on the planet makes money thru employment only. That is not true a LOT of people do a whole variety of things for pay 'on their free time'

digest that please

Heh, some guy volunteers to fix stuff then tries to charge people. It is not same thing as "starting your own job"

I know people in multiple 'hobbies' who have turned their hobby into a paying life without employment. They turned there so called 'free time' into income time. You are fine to disagree with that thinking they should have never charged but I do not agree with your view