Do the DEI developers of games such as concord and veilguard still have an audience?

[sick duck]

Concord is an infamous failure, and veilguard didn't do badly but it was very far away from breaking any sales records. I look at social media groups that built up 10+ million subscribers like IGN and ther videos today have hardly any attention. Kotaku was a titan of games media too, and barely anyone looks at anymore.

The only reason I am asking about this is that modern year games aren't my main focus for gaming anymore. None of my past 5 games were developed in the 2020s. I am not opposed to DEI in principle, and I recognize that as filled to the brim as veilguard was with the stuff, I probably would have disliked it for a whole lot of reasons related to gameplay and the lack of continuity it had with the dragon age series from an artistic and lore point of view.

[Odra]

On paper, like many other things, DEI sound reasonable.

Yet once implemented the results are mediocre, almost alienating.

Its as if there is a belief that DEI will automatically make a product better.

The worst kind of DEI is the checklist approach, crossing off boxes of requirements, which in turn promotes one of the very things that are to be avoided: The token character.

The moment someone in the creation process chimes in with "have we included _?" Is when the problems begin.

Games should be entertaining first and foremost, and kept away from developers and consultants who regurgitate "everything is political" to validate and excuse their decisions.

[sick duck]

Първоначално публикувано от Odra:

On paper, like many other things, DEI sound reasonable.

Yet once implemented the results are mediocre, almost alienating.

Its as if there is a belief that DEI will automatically make a product better.

The worst kind of DEI is the checklist approach, crossing off boxes of requirements, which in turn promotes one of the very things that are to be avoided: The token character.

The moment someone in the creation process chimes in with "have we included _?" Is when the problems begin.

Games should be entertaining first and foremost, and kept away from developers and consultants who regurgitate "everything is political" to validate and excuse their decisions.

Checklist design and DEI are not related. The call of duty and ubisoft games are so intensely checklist based that they could fire half of their employees and have AI take their jobs probably.

[hazecloud ( ☞♥◞ ♥)]

i hope there is no new term that people use to replace DEI. just tag everything with DEI so i can avoid.

[Odra]

Първоначално публикувано от sick duck:

Първоначално публикувано от Odra:

On paper, like many other things, DEI sound reasonable.

Yet once implemented the results are mediocre, almost alienating.

Its as if there is a belief that DEI will automatically make a product better.

The worst kind of DEI is the checklist approach, crossing off boxes of requirements, which in turn promotes one of the very things that are to be avoided: The token character.

The moment someone in the creation process chimes in with "have we included _?" Is when the problems begin.

Games should be entertaining first and foremost, and kept away from developers and consultants who regurgitate "everything is political" to validate and excuse their decisions.

Checklist design and DEI are not related. The call of duty and ubisoft games are so intensely checklist based that they could fire half of their employees and have AI take their jobs probably.

Never claimed it was.

I said that the checklist approach is (or at least one of) the worst way to implement DEI.

[Reported.]

What does woke mean

[The nameless Gamer]

Първоначално публикувано от Sozin:

What does woke mean

It seems to vary widely between: "some specific writing and design choices I don't like" on one side and "the game has characters which have a complexion darker than people who played hide and seek with the Sun their whole lives" on the other. You can only imagine what else can fit in between those two extremes.

[King of Games]

I used to like bioware, but there games have been awful after Mass Effect 2. At this point I'm just waiting for EA to take them out back ole yeller style and bury them next to Westwood, BullFrog, Maxis, Origin, and Mythic.

[D. Flame]

Първоначално публикувано от sick duck:

Първоначално публикувано от Odra:

On paper, like many other things, DEI sound reasonable.

Yet once implemented the results are mediocre, almost alienating.

Its as if there is a belief that DEI will automatically make a product better.

The worst kind of DEI is the checklist approach, crossing off boxes of requirements, which in turn promotes one of the very things that are to be avoided: The token character.

The moment someone in the creation process chimes in with "have we included _?" Is when the problems begin.

Games should be entertaining first and foremost, and kept away from developers and consultants who regurgitate "everything is political" to validate and excuse their decisions.

Checklist design and DEI are not related. The call of duty and ubisoft games are so intensely checklist based that they could fire half of their employees and have AI take their jobs probably.

They are 100% related. DEI Grifters do not care about the people that they claim to represent. They just go down a check list. They are only in it to make a profit for themselves.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tokenism#In_television

In Sociology, tokenism is the social practice of making a perfunctory and symbolic effort towards the equitable inclusion of members of a minority group, especially by recruiting people from under-represented social-minority groups in order for the organization to give the public appearance of racial and gender equality, usually within a workplace or a school.[1][2][3] The sociological purpose of tokenism is to give the appearance of inclusivity to a workplace or a school that is not as culturally diverse (racial, religious, sexual, etc.) as the rest of society.[4]

Modern Woke in video games is exactly the same as the concept of the "Token Black Guy" in older Hollywood movies. They would include a black actor, give them no real character, then kill them off almost immediately, just so that they could claim there was a black person in their movie, and therefore they were being inclusive.

What makes this even worse, is that games used to be more inclusive before people were trying to mandate them to be. Before the tokenism started, you had various character (e.g. Poison, Bridgette, Samus) that all still fit the bill, but they were actual characters rather than just check marks on a list.

You can see from posts like this one:

Първоначално публикувано от The nameless Gamer:

Първоначално публикувано от Sozin:

What does woke mean

It seems to vary widely between: "some specific writing and design choices I don't like" on one side and "the game has characters which have a complexion darker than people who played hide and seek with the Sun their whole lives" on the other. You can only imagine what else can fit in between those two extremes.

They actually don't give a single care for the actual characters. They just want to put checkmarks on a list. They don't care about a character like Zack from DOA or his zany personality, they just want to put a checkmark under dark skin. They don't care about characters like Poison or her dominating character, they just want to put a checkmark under "trans."

You'll notice these people fighting so hard to defend this modern woke movement basically never mention any characters by name, only by the category that they are wanting to put a checkmark in. They are telling on themselves with every single post as a result.

[The nameless Gamer]

Първоначално публикувано от D. Flame:

Първоначално публикувано от The nameless Gamer:

It seems to vary widely between: "some specific writing and design choices I don't like" on one side and "the game has characters which have a complexion darker than people who played hide and seek with the Sun their whole lives" on the other. You can only imagine what else can fit in between those two extremes.

They actually don't give a single care for the actual characters. They just want to put checkmarks on a list. They don't care about a character like Zack from DOA or his zany personality, they just want to put a checkmark under dark skin. They don't care about characters like Poison or her dominating character, they just want to put a checkmark under "trans."

You'll notice these people fighting so hard to defend this modern woke movement basically never mention any characters by name, only by the category that they are wanting to put a checkmark in. They are telling on themselves with every single post as a result.

Much like many "anti-woke" want certain criteria. They simply don't want non-white and non-straight people in games but since openly and explicitly saying that often leads to bans on game hubs and social media, they have to resort to buzzwords and dog-whistles. There are bad apples in BOTH chests.

[D. Flame]

Първоначално публикувано от The nameless Gamer:

Първоначално публикувано от D. Flame:

They actually don't give a single care for the actual characters. They just want to put checkmarks on a list. They don't care about a character like Zack from DOA or his zany personality, they just want to put a checkmark under dark skin. They don't care about characters like Poison or her dominating character, they just want to put a checkmark under "trans."

You'll notice these people fighting so hard to defend this modern woke movement basically never mention any characters by name, only by the category that they are wanting to put a checkmark in. They are telling on themselves with every single post as a result.

Much like many "anti-woke" want certain criteria. They simply don't want non-white and non-straight people in games but since openly and explicitly saying that often leads to bans on game hubs and social media, they have to resort to buzzwords and dog-whistles. There are bad apples in BOTH chests.

TUROK was fairly well loved, got multiple games, and it starred a Native American man, just as one example. Like I said, games were more diverse before publishers started forcing a checklist mentality.

Oh, and let's not forget Saints Row. The most popular character in that series was a bad ass asian man ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Gat ). The game also had a diverse cast of likeable characters across multiple games, then they forced a disastrous reboot for the modern audience, leading to Volition being permanently shutdown.

[ReBoot]

Първоначално публикувано от Sozin:

What does woke mean

As of currently, anything going against fragile masculinity. Gay people (unless it's lesbain porn) in media would be an example. Pronoun selection in videogames is anothrer. Apparently, fragile masculinity can't deal with even an OPTION (that other people may use) to play as someone fragile masculinity is afraid of being itself.

Growing up in Russia (which modern conservatives tend to like), "gay" was an insult and the fear to turn out gay (I'm a dude) was real. I mean, not real as in "it's an actual reason to be afraid", more like "I got indoctrinated into that cult". The term "cult" I use because people wanted me to feel what they feel, that rear.

[The nameless Gamer]

Първоначално публикувано от D. Flame:

Първоначално публикувано от The nameless Gamer:

Much like many "anti-woke" want certain criteria. They simply don't want non-white and non-straight people in games but since openly and explicitly saying that often leads to bans on game hubs and social media, they have to resort to buzzwords and dog-whistles. There are bad apples in BOTH chests.

TUROK was fairly well loved, got multiple games, and it starred a Native American man, just as one example. Like I said, games were more diverse before publishers started forcing a checklist mentality.

How many people KNEW that? Turok is a first-person game, and unless people read it up somewhere, they likely didn't know to begin with.

You might want to notice how fighting games are usually not noticed by both sides. They don't talk about them positively or negatively, despite them being the most inclusive and diverse type of game.

But back to the original point: both sides have negative extremes and both are equally bad. And the problem aren't "checklists", it's that gaming no longer is a niche and obscure hobby, it has become mainstream. It's no longer entertainment solely for hardcore committed audiences. THAT is where your culprit lies, not in "checklists".

[D. Flame]

Първоначално публикувано от The nameless Gamer:

Първоначално публикувано от D. Flame:

TUROK was fairly well loved, got multiple games, and it starred a Native American man, just as one example. Like I said, games were more diverse before publishers started forcing a checklist mentality.

How many people KNEW that? Turok is a first-person game,

Everyone knew. No secret was made of it. There was even a comic book of the same name. Turok was also featured directly on the cover of the N64 game.

And again:

Първоначално публикувано от D. Flame:

let's not forget Saints Row. The most popular character in that series was a bad ass asian man ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Gat ). The game also had a diverse cast of likeable characters across multiple games, then they forced a disastrous reboot for the modern audience, leading to Volition being permanently shutdown.

[Tito Shivan]

Първоначално публикувано от Sozin:

What does woke mean

For the most part, when reading complaints about it it can be translated to "It has gays, blacks and or women and I don't like that"

Първоначално публикувано от D. Flame:

TUROK was fairly well loved, got multiple games, and it starred a Native American man, just as one example. Like I said, games were more diverse before publishers started forcing a checklist mentality.

And if it got released today the 'anti-woke' would be faoaming their mouths at it having 'forced inclusion' and whatnot. That's the part you don't get. It's all an argumentation post-facts.

And as a counterexample some people did get angry at Samus being a woman as back as 1995. Bigots have existed always. But there was not a worldwide ever-present social network to amplify and make money off that discourse. It was just a few bigots throwing a tantrum.

The discourse has always been there. It's the platform where it's voiced what changed.

Първоначално публикувано от The nameless Gamer:

Much like many "anti-woke" want certain criteria. They simply don't want non-white and non-straight people in games but since openly and explicitly saying that often leads to bans on game hubs and social media, they have to resort to buzzwords and dog-whistles. There are bad apples in BOTH chests.

Oh, but they 'accept' non-white and non-straight people in games! Only they have to be written and added in such a manner that there's no other logic outcome for the story than 'having a gay' in that particular spot or character.

Instead of, you know gay or black people simply existing, without a need or purpose.

Kind of amusing how, again, they're just spouting the same homophobic discourse that regressives and reactionaries parroted 20 years ago when 'every movie had to have a gay character'

[D. Flame]

Първоначално публикувано от Tito Shivan:

And if it got released today the 'anti-woke' would be faoaming their mouths at it having 'forced inclusion' and whatnot.

I am not interested in you alternate-history fan fiction, just because you lost on the facts.

Again, most popular character in Saints Row was a non-white character. People still think about Gat fondly.

Saints Row got a reboot for the modern woke audience (despite the main cast already being diverse). It crashed and burned so hard that the studio who made Saints Row, Red Faction, Etc. got closed forever as a result.

Every single piece of hard evidence proves that you are wrong, so you just start making up fiction in your head to justify your agenda instead.