Steams really going down hill fast... :\

[ac19189]

You know I remember starting off on steam back during CS and what not. Only reason I stuck in it with steam was because it was showing lots of promise but anymore it just feels like its being a cash cow. I honestly feel like up and moving to another place. I was wondering what everyone elses thoughts were on this?

A few reasons for my comments above.
I noticed back when steam was worth using they had really good quality control you had to have an awesome game just to make it in had nothing to do with money or fans but atleast you had good working games. Now any monkey in a suite with enough fans and time can release an early access game and charge whatever the hell they want and steam is totally cool with it.

Now while thats cool and all what happens when you make a movie of a game as a trailer but the game itself has NOTHING that trailer shows and then you just run around taking peoples money and going ITS ALPHA you would thing steam might step in but nope. Its up to us as the people shelling out the cash to look at the video game images and read the forums to find out whats true because the game has NO demo and steam doesnt care.

So what we are left with is game companies can charge whatever they want and show us whatever they want and we need to be able to look at it and go nope thats not really whats in the game without playing it or read the forums and find other people that have been scammed out of their money.

You would think steam would step in at this point but nope. Its your fault for buying a game without playing it first... I really dont see how this is acceptable by steam but it is. I miss the good days when we had some quality control. A perfect example is starforge that games trailers vs what content it has is laughable then the staff keeps using comments such as its alpha or we moved to an office or someone quit.

Yet steam still lets them sell the game while I would be okay with this even early access at that if steam lived up to its own claims... <.< http://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq/ early access FAQ and i quote.

"Is this the same as pre-purchasing a game?
No. Early Access is a full purchase of a playable game. By purchasing, you gain immediate access to download and play the game in its current form and as it evolves up and through 'release'."

Well what if the game isnt playable just because you can load something and walk around doing nothing doesnt make the game playable it makes it LOADABLE but not playable yet here we sit. I just dont understand how steam could go from caring about its players to telling us to shove off we just want your money.

Maybe I am wrong feel free to comment and tell me what you guys think or feel about this.

[Gallifrey - CSSC Gaming Founder]

There seems to be three primary issues here: -

1) Steam are allegedly selling games that don't meet their description or are sub-standard.
2) Steam games can't be transferred
3) If Steam went bankrupt you would lose all your games.

To deal with the issues in that order: -

1) If true, and people could have some major libel suits winging their way if it isn't, Steam MUST sort this out. Steam seem to have stopped putting up their daily user figures but at any time it was in the region of four million to six million people. Every hour of every day. That is a HUGE customer base. A company that large shouldn't be pushing out shoddy product even if their terms and conditions allow them to do so. If you are going to be by far the biggest supplier of leisure software for the most popular hardware (and let's face it, Steam almost certainly is that already) people are going to expect a degree of quality. If the output of this post was reproduced in the mainstream media the impact on Steam could be severely damaging. I have a workable solution. Steam should recruit volunteers from the gaming community who will test out all new games that are either Early Access or not made by a major producer. They should be given guidance as to "fits description" and "merchantable quality". In return for testing the games they get free copies. If they review games they have to disclose their roles as quality testers. If 20% or more of testers (I'd suggest ten per game) say it fails the quality test Steam will get an employee to check the game. If it fails it doesn't get sold. If it passes and it turns out shoddy Steam will have to ask why. If it looks like their reviewers are unreliable they should be replaced.
2) This is difficult in the digital age. I'd see if Bruce Willis does sue Apple and see how the result turns out. Technically a licence is still property (a chose in action) and there may be an argument that unless Apple and Steam have specifically stated in their terms that the licence terminates on the death of the licensee then it would pass into the deceased's estate on death. The issue is compounded by the query - is digital download the end of technology in this area ? The technology to reproduce sound isn't even 150 years old yet. In that time wax cylinders have been replaced by vinyl which was mainly replaced by CDs which in turn seem to be being replaced by digital download. So people needed to update the software to fit the new hardware. Also formerly, between the 30's and the the 60's, music was disposable. No generation during that period seemed to be interested in what their parents listened to. Now more people can sing Beatles songs than have the faintest idea what the current No 1 single is. These rights are now valuable and will remain valuable for a significant time to come (assuming no nuclear holocaust or environmental disaster leading to the wiping out of 90% of the 60% that's left of non human life on Earth in which case what's valuable is likely to change). Apple look at the possibility of being the permanent library keepers of material that last made them money decades earlier. Steam face a similar situation but constant updates in hardware and software will minimise the impact.
3) There are some heavy assertions here. What percentage of Steam's games WON'T work offline ? I think most do in which case Steam going up in smoke won't affect downloaded games. You won't be able to download them to a different machine but surely most people (honest ones anyway) are only likely to download once or twice in a lifetime of use ? Also you'd have to consider why Steam would cease to exist. It's debts would outweigh its assets. However if they shut down Steam on liquidation it would be worthless. The asset value would be nothing. Also if Steam remained the dominant market player for vending software the games producers and the hardware manufacturers (particularly MSI and Alienware) would have a fit. A loss of Steam in those circumstances would take them out too. Like the music industry stepping in to save HMV in the U.K I think that if Steam did go bankrupt other elements of the industry would buy it as a going concern. Also Steam itself - it doesn't make the games (Valve does - but that's different), it doesn't store the games, it doesn't pre purchase the games. It just takes a cut of every game it sells. With the running costs being minimal in comparison to the value of the sales there would have to be fairly major incompetence for it to run into financial trouble.

S.x.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por Matthew Sobol's Daemon:

Erm, Satoru. Not that I agree with this sentiment that "Steam is DRM for every game on it ever", but you DO realize there's nothing stopping devs from putting their game up on Steam AND making a DRM free version of it?

The problem is that the way it's always phrased is "Steam is DRM". Which to a dev basically means "I can't have Steamworks because you think steam is drm".

Which isn't true and it's a much better strategy to inform devs that Steamworks integration does not mean that your game can't be DRM free or doesn't require the steam client. The over simplification of "Steam is DRM" hurts their cause because it conveys the wrong message to devs.

[Space Coward]

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

Escrito originalmente por GhostMotleyX:

Steam is DRM, if you want it to be or not is irrelevant. And that list of so called 'DRM' free games is mearly a small fraction of the games on Steam.

Again the fact that there are DRM free games on Steam more or less makes this argument moot. You can't simultaneously claim Steam is DRM, if in fact you can play DRM free games on Steam itself.

Saying so is again a self-defeating proclamation for DRM-free proponents. It is again the WORST THING you could be saying. If you're wondering why there aren't many DRM-free games in general, it's because of this. Devs simply cannot afford make the the DRM-free choice if that choice means they can't be on Steam at all.

Which again, is a false choice demanded by the DRM free crowd. When in fact they could be DRM-free and be on Steam.

If DRM free proponents want to keep cutting off their nose to spite their face that's fine. But it's a foolish strategy. A strategy that is not based in reality but on pure ideology. An ideology that will DIE if you don't actually understand what DRM actually is.

There is NOT a single DRM free game on Steam. Everything requires Steam to download. The only times they aren't requiring Steam are when the developers are lazy and don't actually mount it into Steam right.

It can only be called DRM Free if there was a section of Steam devoted to it.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

There is NOT a single DRM free game on Steam. Everything requires Steam to download.

That's non-sensical. That means GOG is DRM because you have to log into the website to get the installer. It's the exact same thing. You have to log into steam to download the game. You have to log into GOG to get teh installer.

You can take yoru Steam FTL install and move it around to any # of computers and it will work. Which more or less says it's DRM free because you dont need Steam to run the game.

Again this kind of simplistic incorrect view of how DRM works on Steam is the thing that's killing the movement.

[Space Coward]

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

There is NOT a single DRM free game on Steam. Everything requires Steam to download.

That's non-sensical. That means GOG is DRM because you have to log into the website to get the installer. It's the exact same thing. You have to log into steam to download the game. You have to log into GOG to get teh installer.

You can take yoru Steam FTL install and move it around to any # of computers and it will work. Which more or less says it's DRM free because you dont need Steam to run the game.

Again this kind of simplistic incorrect view of how DRM works on Steam is the thing that's killing the movement.

Actually, Steam IS DRM. GOG isn't.

Steam games that DON'T have DRM is only because the developers are lazy and don't wrap the game in Steam. If they had done it right, they would have had Steam DRM. They're supposed to, actually.

GOG games NEVER have DRM, because they don't allow it. When you sign in, that's it. You download any installer, copy and paste files, give out installers, whatever the hell you want. You don't even need a client to launch ANY game. It's just an installer. Of course you need to buy the game, but does that mean an old CD would count as DRM as well?

[Space Coward]

Then isn't it DRM to have a website to download it, since it wasn't on your desktop to begin with?

[Cyotey]

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

Then isn't it DRM to have a website to download it, since it wasn't on your desktop to begin with?

By downloading, running and using Steam you automatically agree with any rules and regulations of the software. The site itself isn't going to affect you.

[Space Coward]

Escrito originalmente por Frillin:

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

Then isn't it DRM to have a website to download it, since it wasn't on your desktop to begin with?

By downloading, running and using Steam you automatically agree with any rules and regulations of the software. The site itself isn't going to affect you.

But any site is technically DRM, right? You know, it has to be on your desktop WITH your computer.

Also, according to that one guy's logic, doesn't that mean a brick-and-mortar store is DRM?

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

Steam games that DON'T have DRM is only because the developers are lazy and don't wrap the game in Steam. If they had done it right, they would have had Steam DRM. They're supposed to, actually.

Actually this is false. You have to MANUALLY wrap the DRM onto your EXE. Something most devs don't bother with. Steam doesn't enforce this. Steam doesnt care if you do or do not do this. It's a tool in the Steamworks toolbox. You can do everything, or nothing with Steamworks. Its all optional.

Remember just because your game launches steam when you double click the exe DOES NOT MEAN it was wrapped with CEG

https://twitter.com/icculus/status/471441666419990528

This is the problem with the DRM free crowd. They don't actually understand WHAT is happening. That tweet is the majority of the reason why steam launches when you double click the EXE. It's not DRM. its being lazy.

GOG games NEVER have DRM, because they don't allow it. When you sign in, that's it. You download any installer, copy and paste files, give out installers, whatever the hell you want. You don't even need a client to launch ANY game. It's just an installer. Of course you need to buy the game, but does that mean an old CD would count as DRM as well?

And you can do the same with Steam games. Download them, again just like gog you ahve to LOG IN SOMEWHERE to get the game files so you can't call this step DRM. Take a copy of the steamapps folder, presto. You have a DRM free copy of FTL to move to wherever you want.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

But any site is technically DRM, right? You know, it has to be on your desktop WITH your computer.

That means GOG is DRM

It's illogical to say 'a login to download a game' is somehow DRM. Because that's what you're asserting when you asy 'steam is drm'

[Ineffable Anathema]

Escrito originalmente por Satoru:

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

But any site is technically DRM, right? You know, it has to be on your desktop WITH your computer.

That means GOG is DRM

It's illogical to say 'a login to download a game' is somehow DRM. Because that's what you're asserting when you asy 'steam is drm'

GOG isn't DRM because once you have downloaded the games initially you are free to make backups, install them on any number of computers at one time, delete and reinstall at will, back it up on disks 100 times or whatever. There's no further need to connect to GOG after the initial download of a game (unless you wish to buy more games of course or you delete the initial download files and wish to download them again.) The account is simply a list of games you legally have access to at any time, and a place to download them from. There's no restriction on your use of the programs.

[Cyotey]

Escrito originalmente por Kill-Cam Celebrity:

But any site is technically DRM, right? You know, it has to be on your desktop WITH your computer.

Also, according to that one guy's logic, doesn't that mean a brick-and-mortar store is DRM?

Technically a site is still DRM yeah. But not as strict as a program, software or game DRM. You still have to follow...oh I can't remember the correct term for it but basically rules and laws that you just know out of common sense rather than it always having to be said. Some sites will tell you 'By using this site you are agreeing to our cookie policy'. That's their DRM right to track what you do on their site as you use it. But you have free will and can choose to leave any time.

[Satoru]

Escrito originalmente por I AM SHODAN!:

GOG isn't DRM because once you have downloaded the games initially you are free to make backups, install them on any number of computers at one time, delete and reinstall at will, back it up on disks 100 times or whatever.

Which you can do with any DRM free games on Steam like FTL. Move the steamapps folder and you have a fully working games anywhere. Which is why it's nonsensical for DRM free proponents to hold that on high as some kind of banner, when Steam does the exact same thing, right now.

[Cyotey]

Escrito originalmente por Matthew Sobol's Daemon:

I think we really need to sit down and agree on what DRM is actually defined as.

It's defined as Digital Rights Management which allows companies to protect their products...at least that was the general idea of it. The problem with it is that they take it too far and practically turn it into a monopoly. Things like games only being for one system or like we said before....requiring integration, internet or an account (like with Ubisoft's Uplay) to access a game or extra content. I understand companies need to protect their products from piracy but:
1. People pirate things all the time whether it's music or really any type of software.
2. The fact once again that companies are really abusing their DRM rights and forcing things on us that shouldn't be forced.

[Ineffable Anathema]

Escrito originalmente por Frillin:

Technically a site is still DRM yeah. But not as strict as a program, software or game DRM. You still have to follow...oh I can't remember the correct term for it but basically rules and laws that you just know out of common sense rather than it always having to be said. Some sites will tell you 'By using this site you are agreeing to our cookie policy'. That's their DRM right to track what you do on their site as you use it. But you have free will and can choose to leave any time.

I don't know where you got this idea, but cookies are not DRM. Cookies are tracking software, which is an entirely different thing altogether.