The 'Anti-Linux' Anti-Cheat is getting out of hand, Valve plz help

[Tic-toc26]

Grand Theft Auto V previously a top 10 played game on Steam Deck before a (decade overdue) anti-cheat update now no longer works on Linux, because the the anti-cheat deems Linux as Cheat software.

To me this is extremely frustrating and I know I'm not the only one. The Steam Deck is built TO PLAY GAMES! Why are anti-cheat preventing game from being played on a device that is made TO PLAY GAMES? This doesn't make any sense!

So what can we do about it? Well other than making a fit about it and others go farther by proving the anti-cheat is ineffective. I think the only thing we can effective do is reach out to Valve to make a incentive to these people to make there software work on Linux.


Edit:
THIS IS NOT ABOUT GTA V, GTA V IS ONLY A RECENT EXAMPLE AS EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT GTA V IS!

THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE GAME IT SELF WORKING ON LINUX!
(if you don't know about steam-play/proton learn about that before posting here)

THIS IS ABOUT ANTI-CHEAT AND LINUX, Linux is not Cheat software yet a handful of anti-cheat's prevent people from playing because there not playing on windows.

Edit, edit:

cSg|mc-Hotsauce の投稿を引用：

Things are in motion...

https://steamdeckhq.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/09/RedditGrandTheftAutoOnlineResponseSteamSupport.webp

:nkCool:

While this is not about GTA V thing are happening, for this one game. We need a solution for the rest!
Thank you Nate! and thank you the people over at Valve!

[Wolfpig]

ReBoot の投稿を引用：

Tic-toc26 の投稿を引用：

First off Thank you so much for understanding this isn't about GTA V. As far as Valve ability to change this, yeah I'm aware Valve can't force people to make there games work on Linux (well if they want it on Steve I suppose they could but that would be a bad idea). But I believe they have the power to encourage anti cheat devs to be more compatible with Linux. I just want this to stop, or at best happen less...

... which they already do. It's jsut that some devs don't want to be encouraged to care about Linux/Proton.

You mean with some devs the majority of them.
Why would they support a working anti-cheat on Linux if they do not support Linux at all?

And that such things can happen was something everyone knew.

[Thermal Lance]

Wolfpig の投稿を引用：

ReBoot の投稿を引用：

... which they already do. It's jsut that some devs don't want to be encouraged to care about Linux/Proton.

You mean with some devs the majority of them.
Why would they support a working anti-cheat on Linux if they do not support Linux at all?

And that such things can happen was something everyone knew.

Linux users are extra customers at minimal costs thanks to proton. That said, the % of users simply is not large enough for a company like R to care.

It's a shame really since most of the work is done for them.

[Zefar]

The Anti-Cheat is most likely using features that only exist on Windows and these options actually do make a difference.

The Wiggle video in Tarkov showing how much cheating was going on, brought up the subject when talking to anti cheat developers.
They mentioned that you could get rid of a lot of cheat types by just enabling certain Windows features. Sure it blocked off Win8 and lower. But it would get rid of a lot of cheats.

Thermal Lance の投稿を引用：

Linux users are extra customers at minimal costs thanks to proton. That said, the % of users simply is not large enough for a company like R to care.

It's a shame really since most of the work is done for them.

Wouldn't say they are a minimal cost. The studio behind Supreme commander series said that nearly all of their support tickets where about bugs from Linux version. They had to spend quite a lot of time fixing it.
When in reality the amount of people buying it on Linux was so low it honestly wasn't worth it.
While this was some years ago it might just still be valid today.

[Thermal Lance]

Zefar の投稿を引用：

The Anti-Cheat is most likely using features that only exist on Windows and these options actually do make a difference.

The Wiggle video in Tarkov showing how much cheating was going on, brought up the subject when talking to anti cheat developers.
They mentioned that you could get rid of a lot of cheat types by just enabling certain Windows features. Sure it blocked off Win8 and lower. But it would get rid of a lot of cheats.

Thermal Lance の投稿を引用：

Linux users are extra customers at minimal costs thanks to proton. That said, the % of users simply is not large enough for a company like R to care.

It's a shame really since most of the work is done for them.

Wouldn't say they are a minimal cost. The studio behind Supreme commander series said that nearly all of their support tickets where about bugs from Linux version. They had to spend quite a lot of time fixing it.
When in reality the amount of people buying it on Linux was so low it honestly wasn't worth it.
While this was some years ago it might just still be valid today.

A large number of newer games works fine on Linux. And no, most of these devs didn't break a sweat to support it.

Also, if supreme commander got a Linux version it's a whole other thing than proton. Linux support, proper, takes ressources where most games just run out of the gate with proton without the devs having to lift a finger.

[ナルゴ]

Stop buying games with client-side anti-cheat until they get the message.

[Start_Running]

Boblin the Goblin の投稿を引用：

Waryth の投稿を引用：

MINIMUM	Requirements
OS	Windows 10 64 Bit
Processor	Intel Core 2 Quad CPU Q6600 @ 2.40GHz (4 CPUs) / AMD Phenom 9850 Quad-Core Processor (4 CPUs) @ 2.5GHz
Memory	4 GB RAM
Graphics	NVIDIA 9800 GT 1GB / AMD HD 4870 1GB (DX 10, 10.1, 11)
Storage	120 GB available space
Sound Card	100% DirectX 10 compatible
Additional Notes	Over time downloadable content and programming changes will change the system requirements for this game. Please refer to your hardware manufacturer and www.rockstargames.com/support for current compatibility information. Some system components such as mobile chipsets, integrated, and AGP graphics cards may be incompatible. Unlisted specifications may not be supported by the publisher.

RECOMMENDED	Requirements
OS	Windows 10 64 Bit
Processor	Intel Core i5 3470 @ 3.2GHz (4 CPUs) / AMD X8 FX-8350 @ 4GHz (8 CPUs)
Memory	8 GB RAM
Graphics	NVIDIA GTX 660 2GB / AMD HD 7870 2GB
Storage	120 GB available space
Sound Card	100% DirectX 10 compatible

System Requirements of a game: WINDOWS OS

Requirements as in REQUIRED. Its either WINDOWS or WINDOWS. NO OTHER OPTIONS.

Linux community: GAME IS ANTI LINUX!

Excuse you, It was NEVER meant for LINUX. Linux OS are meant for LINUX GAMES ONLY. How hard is that for you to understand?

Weird how I have all these Windows games that work on my Deck.

To be fair it doesn't change the point that the dev/pub never designed the game for linux or placed any guarantee or warranty on it working with linux or the steam deck. THat was uessentially a happy stroke of luck.

[ReBoot]

Thermal Lance の投稿を引用：

Wolfpig の投稿を引用：

You mean with some devs the majority of them.
Why would they support a working anti-cheat on Linux if they do not support Linux at all?

And that such things can happen was something everyone knew.

Linux users are extra customers at minimal costs thanks to proton. That said, the % of users simply is not large enough for a company like R to care.

It's a shame really since most of the work is done for them.

Quite frankly, I doubt Rockstar care at all. GTA 5's online code is a Faszination bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥♥ decisions.

[Kevin (Boricua_Kevin on gta 5 O]

Tic-toc26 の投稿を引用：

Grand Theft Auto V previously a top 10 played game on Steam Deck before a (decade overdue) anti-cheat update now no longer works on Linux, because the the anti-cheat deems Linux as Cheat software.

To me this is extremely frustrating and I know I'm not the only one. The Steam Deck is built TO PLAY GAMES! Why are anti-cheat preventing game from being played on a device that is made TO PLAY GAMES? This doesn't make any sense!

So what can we do about it? Well other than making a fit about it and others go farther by proving the anti-cheat is ineffective. I think the only thing we can effective do is reach out to Valve to make a incentive to these people to make there software work on Linux.

Thank the cheaters...THEY R THE REASON..ME how ever I play on windows ten pc...NO ISSUES

[Tic-toc26]

ReBoot の投稿を引用：

... which they already do. It's jsut that some devs don't want to be encouraged to care about Linux/Proton.

What do you mean they already do? Already do what? I haven't heard of Valve making any moves to improve anti-cheat for Linux.

Realigo Actual の投稿を引用：

^ lolwtf

Cheating in videogames is not a contemporary political issue. Also, huge swaths of the world do not operate under a democratic-but-private-sector-undermined ossified two-party system. Some are true multi-party democracies, some are democratic-styled oligarchies, some are running pleasant democratic veneers covering corrupt benign authoritarian structures. The whole RIGHT VS. LEFT thing is a Murica thing.

I agree that multiplayer used to better, though. Cheats used to happen back then, too, but you could be on a server with two dudes duping items or godding a boss, but most times, they wouldn't bother anyone else. PVP cheating was more rare. Multiplayer was better across the board back when.

I don't know whats going on here, just leave him alone and maybe he'll go away

Thermal Lance の投稿を引用：

Get used to it. Anti-Cheats are getting more and more invasive by the day. Most of the time, Linux users gets shafted in the crossfire. It is what it is.

I (currently) don't use Linux, but I feel the need to mention the amount of Linux users is growing rather fast. not to long ago it was %2.2 of all OSs were Linux, it is now almost %5. one on the flip side Windows use to be at ~>%80, they're now %71. These people can keep doing what there doing but if they act without foresight eventually there going to have a problem.

[Start_Running]

5% is still a piddling amount m8. and lets be frank
Where as WIndows has dropped a little, yes. but it's still the dominant OS be a country mile.

[Tic-toc26]

Wolfpig の投稿を引用：

You mean with some devs the majority of them.
Why would they support a working anti-cheat on Linux if they do not support Linux at all?

And that such things can happen was something everyone knew.

Its my understanding that some devs rely on the compatibility layer (proton as an example) and enable anti-cheat for Linux. I don't believe this is the best way to handle it, but it cuts down on development cost. Idk I'm not them and that's how some of them do it.

Thermal Lance の投稿を引用：

Linux users are extra customers at minimal costs thanks to proton. That said, the % of users simply is not large enough for a company like R to care.

It's a shame really since most of the work is done for them.

I know I said this already but it was from the last page. They'll need to respond eventually Linux is growing and Windows is shrinking. The sooner they respond the better it will be for them and us.
(would be nice if the was infinite scroll instead of pages here)

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

To be fair it doesn't change the point that the dev/pub never designed the game for linux or placed any guarantee or warranty on it working with linux or the steam deck. THat was uessentially a happy stroke of luck.

There was no luck here. Valve engineered a non-windows handheld that can play game nearly the same as a windows desktop would, GTA V is in general one of the most popular games. Of course it would be one of the top ten games on Deck.

ReBoot の投稿を引用：

Quite frankly, I doubt Rockstar care at all. GTA 5's online code is a Faszination bunch of ♥♥♥♥♥♥ decisions.

Agreed GTA V multiplayer code is a mess.
Let's not get hung on on GTA V thought this is about getting game to work on Linux.

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

5% is still a piddling amount m8. and lets be frank
Where as WIndows has dropped a little, yes. but it's still the dominant OS be a country mile.

If things continue they way that they are it might not stay this way. The sooner they start the better equipped they'll be.

[RiO]

Elucidator の投稿を引用：

Anti Cheat Software directly promotes microsoft's monopoly as such, even though there is no reason to.

Even Microsoft themselves would agree with you on that one.
After the recent Crowdstrike incident, they were once again assessing the issue of third party access to the Windows kernel and their preliminary conclusions were that on a technical level, a lot of solutions don't actually need kernel access and modern Windows OSes have more suitable alternatives.

What they're alluding to is probably Isolated User Mode (IUM) processes[learn.microsoft.com]. Something that has existed since Windows 10 and uses hardware virtualization techniques to splice off the normal user mode processes and the normal kernel which you can think of as the mainstay of the OS, from a second higher-privilege secure kernel and user mode processes running in isolation on top of it.


These processes are boxed away in a way that they can't be observed by tooling such as debuggers; can't have their memory manipulated; can't have code injected; can't have system calls intercepted; etc. They're like a reverse sandbox: rather than letting nothing out of the box, they're designed to let nothing into the box. Except via what communication channels the box (or rather; processes running inside it) explicitly set up.

IUM processes and the secure kernel are free to observe what is happening in the lower trust areas of the main kernel and main user mode - but not the other way around.

Kernel-mode anti-cheat is basically an archaic and unnecessary relic of the past. Isolated User Mode processes are a strict upgrade. It provides much stronger shielding against tampering; and even completely removes the arms race with kernel mode cheats, wrt whichever thing getting loaded into the kernel first, 'winning' and getting to take the other out.
It dramatically lowers the threat vector of vulnerabilities in widely deployed anti-cheat solutions being exploited by malware to gain code execution within the kernel or otherwise escalate privilege to full system take-over, by strongly limiting the access surface to the anti-cheat solution. And it dramatically lowers the threat vector of memory-handling bugs in the code causing kernel memory corruption and leading to BSODs, because the bulk of the code will be actually a user mode program. (Albeit one boxed away inside a digital bunker.)


The kicker is: the principles behind IUM processes aren't something unique to Windows.
This could also (and perhaps already does) exist on the Linux side of the fence as well.

And might be more open to extension for compatibility layering like Proton, than straight-up Windows kernel modules and anti-cheat vendors writing poor code to try and detect 'unknown things in the kernel' which might potentially mess with the anti-cheat.

Instead, anti-cheats can re-establish focus on trying to protect the game process rather than try and protect the game and themselves. Because it's the latter which is causing most of the compatibility headache.

[Wolfpig]

Tic-toc26 の投稿を引用：

Wolfpig の投稿を引用：

You mean with some devs the majority of them.
Why would they support a working anti-cheat on Linux if they do not support Linux at all?

And that such things can happen was something everyone knew.

Its my understanding that some devs rely on the compatibility layer (proton as an example) and enable anti-cheat for Linux. I don't believe this is the best way to handle it, but it cuts down on development cost. Idk I'm not them and that's how some of them do it.

Yes, there are a few developers which will make changes to be better compatible with Proton.
But most developers do not care if you are using the Proton Emulation on linux or not to get a game running on the Steam deck (which probably is 90% of the Linux user base on steam).

People who just buy a game to use on the deck most likely have a windows PC too where they could play it on.

[Tic-toc26]

RiO の投稿を引用：

Even Microsoft themselves would agree with you on that one.
After the recent Crowdstrike incident, they were once again assessing the issue of third party access to the Windows kernel and their preliminary conclusions were that on a technical level, a lot of solutions don't actually need kernel access and modern Windows OSes have more suitable alternatives.

What they're alluding to is probably [url=https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/procthread/isolated-user-mode--ium--processes
]Isolated User Mode (IUM) processes[/url]. Something that has existed since Windows 10 and uses hardware virtualization techniques to splice off the normal user mode processes and the normal kernel which you can think of as the mainstay of the OS, from a second higher-privilege secure kernel and user mode processes running in isolation on top of it.


These processes are boxed away in a way that they can't be observed by tooling such as debuggers; can't have their memory manipulated; can't have code injected; can't have system calls intercepted; etc. They're like a reverse sandbox: rather than letting nothing out of the box, they're designed to let nothing into the box. Except via what communication channels the box (or rather; processes running inside it) explicitly set up.

IUM processes and the secure kernel are free to observe what is happening in the lower trust areas of the main kernel and main user mode - but not the other way around.

Kernel-mode anti-cheat is basically an archaic and unnecessary relic of the past. Isolated User Mode processes are a strict upgrade. It provides much stronger shielding against tampering; and even completely removes the arms race with kernel mode cheats, wrt whichever thing getting loaded into the kernel first, 'winning' and getting to take the other out.
It dramatically lowers the threat vector of vulnerabilities in widely deployed anti-cheat solutions being exploited by malware to gain code execution within the kernel or otherwise escalate privilege to full system take-over, by strongly limiting the access surface to the anti-cheat solution. And it dramatically lowers the threat vector of memory-handling bugs in the code causing kernel memory corruption and leading to BSODs, because the bulk of the code will be actually a user mode program. (Albeit one boxed away inside a digital bunker.)


The kicker is: the principles behind IUM processes aren't something unique to Windows.
This could also (and perhaps already does) exist on the Linux side of the fence as well.

And might be more open to extension for compatibility layering like Proton, than straight-up Windows kernel modules and anti-cheat vendors writing poor code to try and detect 'unknown things in the kernel' which might potentially mess with the anti-cheat.

Instead, anti-cheats can re-establish focus on trying to protect the game process rather than try and protect the game and themselves. Because it's the latter which is causing most of the compatibility headache.

There is this going on to, kinda wish this could end cheating to, but i know it won't. The up side is its more likely devs might be supporting other non windows systems (basically Linux).

Wolfpig の投稿を引用：

Yes, there are a few developers which will make changes to be better compatible with Proton.
But most developers do not care if you are using the Proton Emulation on linux or not to get a game running on the Steam deck (which probably is 90% of the Linux user base on steam).

People who just buy a game to use on the deck most likely have a windows PC too where they could play it on.

I've been wondering myself what the exact number is, ether way assuming every deck owner has a windows desktop is... it makes me angry. I have a friend who can't afford a desktop and I wish I could play games with them. I know there are other people that are in the same spot.

[Komarimaru]

The oddest think is, for EAC at least, it's a simple switch the developer has to enable for it to work on Linux. Yet they don't do it many times unless messaged officially and repeatedly about it.