the concept of "punishing" the player is bad

['za]

i notice that in a lot of games, especially pvp, there is this idea that the player should be "punished" for doing xyz thing. whether that is positioning, or movement, or whatever mechanics that game has. the problem is that this idea of "punishment" is typically used to excuse other mechanics that are very low effort and generally anti-fun. it is typically the case that whatever wrong thing the player did would not be wrong if the so-called "punishment" did not exist within the game. that is to say, the punishment justifies itself. the player is only doing something wrong in relation to the existence of the punishment. if that element were removed, you would not be able to argue that the player had made a mistake. i only really play shooters so i'm not sure how this presents itself in other genres, but i'm sure you can recognize something analogous in whatever game it is that you play.
one example of this is in team fortress 2, wherein soldiers "punish" players for being out of position by taking the high ground, and killing them via splash damage from their rockets which are hitting the ground near the enemy's feet. if the roles were reversed and the soldier was on the low ground, he would therefore not be able to see and shoot the ground at their feet, and so he could only kill them with a direct hit from his rocket launcher. but here's the thing: the players are only out of position because of the risk of splash damage. if the soldier could only kill by hitting the enemy directly, it would make no difference as to whether or not they were on high or low ground. so it could be said that this punishment justifies itself. it's circular reasoning.
another example would be the various pudge-like characters who can hook and pull in the enemy. the "punishment" for being out of position is that you get hooked. however, again, the only reason it could be said that your positioning was bad in the first place, is because the hook exists as a mechanic. if there was no risk of being hooked, there would be nothing wrong with your positioning. the hook justifies itself. it is circular reasoning.
these are mechanics which serve to make the game significantly easier for one player. in one case, the player can completely miss all their shots and still get kills. in the other, the player stunlocks and forces the enemy to move incredibly close for an easy high damage attack. i'm sure you can think of many more principally similar mechanics.
if there is a situation in a game where a player needs to be "punished", the situation itself should be the punishment. for example, if you were to throw yourself into 5 enemy players and die, you died because you put yourself into a 1v5. the punishment is the scenario. there is no additional explicit punishment mechanic needed. and if you are good enough to win against 5 players alone, why shouldn't you be allowed to? why should there be these "punishment" mechanics which exist only to make the game significantly easier for one player over another? these punishment mechanics are always the most annoying aspects of any game.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Punishment aspects are literally a competitive aspect for careless players.

Good players understand punishments and are very good at avoiding them. Bad players are generally the ones who get punished.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Boblin the Goblin:

Punishment aspects are literally a competitive aspect for careless players.

Good players understand punishments and are very good at avoiding them. Bad players are generally the ones who get punished.

ok so you just didn't read my post

[jason]

Having to repeat something you didn't find fun first time should be punishment enough.

[Unn4m3d (♥AUT♥)]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Boblin the Goblin:

Punishment aspects are literally a competitive aspect for careless players.

Good players understand punishments and are very good at avoiding them. Bad players are generally the ones who get punished.

ok so you just didn't read my post

If you want people to read your post you should try formatting it
Nobody wants to read a wall of text.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Unn4m3d (♥AUT♥):

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

ok so you just didn't read my post

If you want people to read your post you should try formatting it
Nobody wants to read a wall of text.

can't wrap your head around a paragraph?

[davidb11]

Paragraphs have double line breaks between them normally.

[ModWorld]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Boblin the Goblin:

Punishment aspects are literally a competitive aspect for careless players.

Good players understand punishments and are very good at avoiding them. Bad players are generally the ones who get punished.

"Good" players don't get punished.

[V3LTA]

Subjective

[Leonardo Da Pinchi]

A lot of this reads like complaining pvp games in and of themselves, just shouldn't exist if they reward good positioning, gamesense, or skill.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

A lot of this reads like complaining pvp games in and of themselves, just shouldn't exist if they reward good positioning, gamesense, or skill.

the reward for those is that you have them while the other guy does not. they are valuable in and of themselves.

[The_Abortionator]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Unn4m3d (♥AUT♥):

If you want people to read your post you should try formatting it
Nobody wants to read a wall of text.

can't wrap your head around a paragraph?

Thas not a paragraph, its a giant block of worthless text. Stop complainig that bad decisions lead to bad outcomes. Thats just been a fact of both gaming and life in general.

You gonna complain that not blocking in a fighting game allows you to get damaged when hit?

You gonna whine that not reloading leads to no ammo in your gun?

You've done nothing but complain that you aren't good at games, theres nothing a game dev can do to fix you.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The_Abortionator:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

can't wrap your head around a paragraph?

Thas not a paragraph, its a giant block of worthless text. Stop complainig that bad decisions lead to bad outcomes. Thats just been a fact of both gaming and life in general.

You gonna complain that not blocking in a fighting game allows you to get damaged when hit?

You gonna whine that not reloading leads to no ammo in your gun?

You've done nothing but complain that you aren't good at games, theres nothing a game dev can do to fix you.

clearly it went over your head

[davidb11]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The_Abortionator:

Thas not a paragraph, its a giant block of worthless text. Stop complainig that bad decisions lead to bad outcomes. Thats just been a fact of both gaming and life in general.

You gonna complain that not blocking in a fighting game allows you to get damaged when hit?

You gonna whine that not reloading leads to no ammo in your gun?

You've done nothing but complain that you aren't good at games, theres nothing a game dev can do to fix you.

clearly it went over your head

Eh? That's not how that expression works.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย davidb11:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

clearly it went over your head

Eh? That's not how that expression works.

he didn't understand my post if that's what he got out of it

[ReBoot]

Hey, that one time on TF2 I was playing soldier in an open field, didn't take any cover and got sniped! ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ game, how dares it to punish me for doing tactically ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥!