the concept of "punishing" the player is bad

['za]

i notice that in a lot of games, especially pvp, there is this idea that the player should be "punished" for doing xyz thing. whether that is positioning, or movement, or whatever mechanics that game has. the problem is that this idea of "punishment" is typically used to excuse other mechanics that are very low effort and generally anti-fun. it is typically the case that whatever wrong thing the player did would not be wrong if the so-called "punishment" did not exist within the game. that is to say, the punishment justifies itself. the player is only doing something wrong in relation to the existence of the punishment. if that element were removed, you would not be able to argue that the player had made a mistake. i only really play shooters so i'm not sure how this presents itself in other genres, but i'm sure you can recognize something analogous in whatever game it is that you play.
one example of this is in team fortress 2, wherein soldiers "punish" players for being out of position by taking the high ground, and killing them via splash damage from their rockets which are hitting the ground near the enemy's feet. if the roles were reversed and the soldier was on the low ground, he would therefore not be able to see and shoot the ground at their feet, and so he could only kill them with a direct hit from his rocket launcher. but here's the thing: the players are only out of position because of the risk of splash damage. if the soldier could only kill by hitting the enemy directly, it would make no difference as to whether or not they were on high or low ground. so it could be said that this punishment justifies itself. it's circular reasoning.
another example would be the various pudge-like characters who can hook and pull in the enemy. the "punishment" for being out of position is that you get hooked. however, again, the only reason it could be said that your positioning was bad in the first place, is because the hook exists as a mechanic. if there was no risk of being hooked, there would be nothing wrong with your positioning. the hook justifies itself. it is circular reasoning.
these are mechanics which serve to make the game significantly easier for one player. in one case, the player can completely miss all their shots and still get kills. in the other, the player stunlocks and forces the enemy to move incredibly close for an easy high damage attack. i'm sure you can think of many more principally similar mechanics.
if there is a situation in a game where a player needs to be "punished", the situation itself should be the punishment. for example, if you were to throw yourself into 5 enemy players and die, you died because you put yourself into a 1v5. the punishment is the scenario. there is no additional explicit punishment mechanic needed. and if you are good enough to win against 5 players alone, why shouldn't you be allowed to? why should there be these "punishment" mechanics which exist only to make the game significantly easier for one player over another? these punishment mechanics are always the most annoying aspects of any game.

[Tito Shivan]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The nameless Commander:

Regardless of genre, the player is being "punished" for a bad decision.

As long as games have a 'fail state' the game is punishing the player.

There's games out there with no fail states. I don't think they'd be up to OP's taste anyway.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Kinerahos:

any fantastic storyline having some allegorical back drop found in reality forcing people to read between the lines really prevent me from diving too deeply into some stuff

I guess you haven't consumed any form of content in the last... six hundred years?

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The_Abortionator:

You're literally complaining that those mechanics are too hard for you.

There's an actual issue with lots of modern online games. In order to generate more engagement many devs 'squeeze' the skill ladder in a compressed space so it create more 'dramatic' gameplay (you're in for more 'extreme' outcomes). When people used to this kind of multiplayer experience join a game where the skill ladder has more 'breathing room' and you get less variance in the skill level of the match... they tend to dislike and find it 'punishing'.

[The nameless Gamer]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tito Shivan:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The nameless Commander:

Regardless of genre, the player is being "punished" for a bad decision.

As long as games have a 'fail state' the game is punishing the player.

Not necessarily. Fighting games are an example where you as the player have to do it. If a Scorpion player in Mortal Kombat manages to punish a whiffed attack with the cord pull, it's still up to them to make the most of it. There's a difference between punishing the opponent with a single uppercut and a 7-8 hit combo which will take a lot more HP.

[Crazy Tiger]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The nameless Commander:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Tito Shivan:

As long as games have a 'fail state' the game is punishing the player.

Not necessarily. Fighting games are an example where you as the player have to do it. If a Scorpion player in Mortal Kombat manages to punish a whiffed attack with the cord pull, it's still up to them to make the most of it. There's a difference between punishing the opponent with a single uppercut and a 7-8 hit combo which will take a lot more HP.

Having to do something as a player doesn't remove having a "fail state". In fighting games you can lose the fights/match-ups. That's a fail state.

[The nameless Gamer]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Crazy Tiger:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The nameless Commander:

Not necessarily. Fighting games are an example where you as the player have to do it. If a Scorpion player in Mortal Kombat manages to punish a whiffed attack with the cord pull, it's still up to them to make the most of it. There's a difference between punishing the opponent with a single uppercut and a 7-8 hit combo which will take a lot more HP.

Having to do something as a player doesn't remove having a "fail state". In fighting games you can lose the fights/match-ups. That's a fail state.

True. But it's also a fail-state if you miss your inputs for punishing the opponent during a fail-state.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The_Abortionator:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

removing mechanics that make the game incredibly easy does not lower the skill ceiling

You're literally complaining that those mechanics are too hard for you.

they're too easy. who said i don't abuse them myself? i just find it boring. they're for bad players who need a crutch. if i use these gimmicks to kill a bunch of dudes with 0 effort, it's not because i was better. it's because i relied on a low skill mechanic.

[Leonardo Da Pinchi]

Tbh ARE there any games that don't have a punish mechanic? You're in a bad position, you get sniped.

Push at a bad moment, your and teammates trickle, letting a pub push happen.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย The_Abortionator:

You're literally complaining that those mechanics are too hard for you.

they're too easy. who said i don't abuse them myself? i just find it boring. they're for bad players who need a crutch.

Yes and when you take advantage of those mechanics, it's because you're "skilled", right?

I'm pretty sure every pvp game to exist, has a punish mechanic. From fighting games where you drop a frame, and lose your juggle. To racing games where you take a wide turn, hit grass, and lose momentum. To shooter games where if you're out of position, you get sniped from halfway across the map.

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

Tbh ARE there any games that don't have a punish mechanic? You're in a bad position, you get sniped.

Push at a bad moment, your and teammates trickle, letting a pub push happen.

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

they're too easy. who said i don't abuse them myself? i just find it boring. they're for bad players who need a crutch.

Yes and when you take advantage of those mechanics, it's because you're "skilled", right?

I'm pretty sure every pvp game to exist, has a punish mechanic. From fighting games where you drop a frame, and lose your juggle. To racing games where you take a wide turn, hit grass, and lose momentum. To shooter games where if you're out of position, you get sniped from halfway across the map.

no i'm not skilled, because there is nothing complex or interesting about these mechanics. they are simply efficient. they don't require any effort or thought on my part to pull off. you really don't understand what sort of mechanic i'm talking about if you're conflating it with every game mechanic ever.

[Tito Shivan]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

Tbh ARE there any games that don't have a punish mechanic?

Walking simulators basically have no fail state. You walk from A to B while a history unfolds.

[Leonardo Da Pinchi]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

Tbh ARE there any games that don't have a punish mechanic? You're in a bad position, you get sniped.

Push at a bad moment, your and teammates trickle, letting a pub push happen.




Yes and when you take advantage of those mechanics, it's because you're "skilled", right?

I'm pretty sure every pvp game to exist, has a punish mechanic. From fighting games where you drop a frame, and lose your juggle. To racing games where you take a wide turn, hit grass, and lose momentum. To shooter games where if you're out of position, you get sniped from halfway across the map.

no i'm not skilled, because there is nothing complex or interesting about these mechanics. they are simply efficient. they don't require any effort or thought on my part to pull off. you really don't understand what sort of mechanic i'm talking about if you're conflating it with every game mechanic ever.

Bad players get punished, system or not. And many of these punishment systems, have direct counters.

Hooks? You've got stun abilities, immobile/ironskin abilities. And movement abilities.

Or, as was previously provided. Soldier has a direct counter in Pyro.

You can see on my profile, I play a LOT of TF2, and I've intentionally used splash to get kills around corners, usually engineers who set up sentries around blind corners. That's their own fault, for positioning so close to a corner, not my fault for intentionally using a system provided to me.


It sounds more like you're basically not taking things into account, get punished for it, then claim "game takes no skill"

Roadhog's hook got so heavily nerfed, it snaps by turning a corner.

[Amaterasu]

I got caught and killed several times in MGS1 this morning alone. I didn't complain about how the game was unfair and shouldn't be punishing me for my mistakes. I chose to learn, take less unnecessary risks. If there isn't a punishment for the player when they mess up, there is no incentive to learn from mistakes.

[Leonardo Da Pinchi]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Amaterasu:

I got caught and killed several times in MGS1 this morning alone. I didn't complain about how the game was unfair and shouldn't be punishing me for my mistakes. I chose to learn, take less unnecessary risks. If there isn't a punishment for the player when they mess up, there is no incentive to learn from mistakes.

One of my favorite things to do is punish wookies (ghillie snipers) in Battlefield games, just like they punish me for running in the open, I punish them for staying scoped in so long they don't see the maniac with a shovel creepin' up on them.

[Crazy Tiger]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

Tbh ARE there any games that don't have a punish mechanic? You're in a bad position, you get sniped.

Push at a bad moment, your and teammates trickle, letting a pub push happen.




Yes and when you take advantage of those mechanics, it's because you're "skilled", right?

I'm pretty sure every pvp game to exist, has a punish mechanic. From fighting games where you drop a frame, and lose your juggle. To racing games where you take a wide turn, hit grass, and lose momentum. To shooter games where if you're out of position, you get sniped from halfway across the map.

no i'm not skilled, because there is nothing complex or interesting about these mechanics. they are simply efficient. they don't require any effort or thought on my part to pull off. you really don't understand what sort of mechanic i'm talking about if you're conflating it with every game mechanic ever.

And the issue is?

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Crazy Tiger:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

no i'm not skilled, because there is nothing complex or interesting about these mechanics. they are simply efficient. they don't require any effort or thought on my part to pull off. you really don't understand what sort of mechanic i'm talking about if you're conflating it with every game mechanic ever.

And the issue is?

it's boring

['za]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

no i'm not skilled, because there is nothing complex or interesting about these mechanics. they are simply efficient. they don't require any effort or thought on my part to pull off. you really don't understand what sort of mechanic i'm talking about if you're conflating it with every game mechanic ever.

Bad players get punished, system or not. And many of these punishment systems, have direct counters.

Hooks? You've got stun abilities, immobile/ironskin abilities. And movement abilities.

Or, as was previously provided. Soldier has a direct counter in Pyro.

You can see on my profile, I play a LOT of TF2, and I've intentionally used splash to get kills around corners, usually engineers who set up sentries around blind corners. That's their own fault, for positioning so close to a corner, not my fault for intentionally using a system provided to me.


It sounds more like you're basically not taking things into account, get punished for it, then claim "game takes no skill"

Roadhog's hook got so heavily nerfed, it snaps by turning a corner.

countering ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with a different flavor of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ doesn't take any skill or effort. you're just playing rock paper scissors.

[Leonardo Da Pinchi]

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย 'zza:

โพสต์ดั้งเดิมโดย Leonardo Da Pinchi:

Bad players get punished, system or not. And many of these punishment systems, have direct counters.

Hooks? You've got stun abilities, immobile/ironskin abilities. And movement abilities.

Or, as was previously provided. Soldier has a direct counter in Pyro.

You can see on my profile, I play a LOT of TF2, and I've intentionally used splash to get kills around corners, usually engineers who set up sentries around blind corners. That's their own fault, for positioning so close to a corner, not my fault for intentionally using a system provided to me.


It sounds more like you're basically not taking things into account, get punished for it, then claim "game takes no skill"

Roadhog's hook got so heavily nerfed, it snaps by turning a corner.

countering ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ with a different flavor of ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ doesn't take any skill or effort. you're just playing rock paper scissors.

Yet it's not as much of an issue to keep you from playing these games...