The new terms are about taking your rights away

[Arksyne]

Valve is trying to work around a new California law that would force them to admit they're not SELLING you anything, you're not BUYING anything at all - you're just renting your games. Valve could take the licenses away any time they want.

Valve, like most corporate people, are a bunch of greedy cowards, and won't admit that to your face.

Instead, they've change the terms so you promise you live in King County, Washington along with all the greedy tech bros at Amazon and Microsoft.

Start buying games on GoG whenever you can. They actually *sell* you the game!

[Brian9824]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

Publicado originalmente por wesnef:

You *never* owned the game, you owned a license to it.

For years direct digital sales had the word BUY in the digital transaction, the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.
Maybe games should go back to a physical medium so they can be owned and sold/traded in like the good old times.

No matter what you call the word the terms are still the same. You buy a license. Same thing for physical media too

For instance if you buy a dvd you have a limited license to use it. You buy a movie and show it in a bar for instance and you can and will get sued by the owner and lose as you don't have the rights to show it commercially.

[wbino]

Publicado originalmente por Brian9824:

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

For years direct digital sales had the word BUY in the digital transaction, the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.
Maybe games should go back to a physical medium so they can be owned and sold/traded in like the good old times.

No matter what you call the word the terms are still the same. You buy a license. Same thing for physical media too

For instance if you buy a dvd you have a limited license to use it. You buy a movie and show it in a bar for instance and you can and will get sued by the owner and lose as you don't have the rights to show it commercially.

I can sell my old albums...there's even a whole industry behind used musical sales.
Why should games be any different? Because a corporation told you?
Free MY games will be a movement.

[Glimmer]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.

Incorrect, it requires the store to state it's a license at some point before completing the transaction the sales page can continue using the term Sell and/or Purchase.

The SSA may meet section A already, and adding something along the lines of "I acknowledge that I'm buying a license as outlined by the Steam Subsscriber Agreement" during checkout would likely meet section B.

https://legiscan.com/CA/text/AB2426/id/3022416

(b) (1) It shall be unlawful for a seller of a digital good to advertise or offer for sale a digital good to a purchaser with the terms “buy,” “purchase,” or any other term which a reasonable person would understand to confer an unrestricted ownership interest in the digital good, or alongside an option for a time-limited rental, unless either of the following occur:
(A) The seller receives at the time of each transaction an affirmative acknowledgment from the purchaser indicating all of the following:

• (i) That the purchaser is receiving a license to access the digital good.
  
• (ii) A complete list of restrictions and conditions of the license.
  
• (iii) That access to the digital good may be unilaterally revoked by the seller if they no longer hold a right to the digital good, if applicable.

(B) The seller provides to the consumer before executing each transaction a clear and conspicuous statement that does both of the following:

• (i) States in plain language that “buying” or “purchasing” the digital good is a license.
  
• (ii) Includes a hyperlink, QR code, or similar method to access the terms and conditions that provide full details on the license.

[Brian9824]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

I can sell my old albums...there's even a whole industry behind used musical sales.
Why should games be any different? Because a corporation told you?
Free MY games will be a movement.

That is a separate issue then licensing vs owning, some licenses are re-sellable, others aren't. That has nothing to do with video games and applies to other things such as memberships, passes, some tickets, etc.

The main reason you can't re-sell is there is no incentive for developers to set up infrastructure for it.

You also can't re-sell digital books, music, movies, etc. In general digital is often cheaper then physical, but has some restrictions as there is no demand for used digital copies as unlike physical copies digital ones never decay.

[Start_Running]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

Publicado originalmente por Brian9824:

No matter what you call the word the terms are still the same. You buy a license. Same thing for physical media too

For instance if you buy a dvd you have a limited license to use it. You buy a movie and show it in a bar for instance and you can and will get sued by the owner and lose as you don't have the rights to show it commercially.

I can sell my old albums...there's even a whole industry behind used musical sales.
Why should games be any different? Because a corporation told you?
Free MY games will be a movement.

Technically what you're selling is the physical medioa the music is on.
It's an artifcact of the old days where the medium and the content were inseperable. But now that thecontent can exist in abstraction from the medium. Things be different.

Heck having the physical medioum doesn't even mean you have the ability to use the content.
How many people bought a game at a garage sale only to find they didn't get a Cdkey, or the cdkey no working ::p

[wbino]

Publicado originalmente por Start_Running:

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

I can sell my old albums...there's even a whole industry behind used musical sales.
Why should games be any different? Because a corporation told you?
Free MY games will be a movement.

Technically what you're selling is the physical medioa the music is on.
It's an artifcact of the old days where the medium and the content were inseperable. But now that thecontent can exist in abstraction from the medium. Things be different.

Heck having the physical medioum doesn't even mean you have the ability to use the content.
How many people bought a game at a garage sale only to find they didn't get a Cdkey, or the cdkey no working ::p

All I'm hearing is an excuse of not giving consumers any rights.

[Tito Shivan]

Publicado originalmente por Mad Scientist:

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

What did you post that needed deletion?

Ask yourself why someone would want 12 accounts with the same display name & avatar. You'll figure it out really quickly.

12? He boasted he had more than a thousand alts.
Just another soldier of Vova's little internet army.

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

For years direct digital sales had the word BUY in the digital transaction, the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.

The irony is that the same game which runs on the same licensing and requires the same service to run can still be 'bought' at a retail store.

[wbino]

Publicado originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Publicado originalmente por Mad Scientist:

Ask yourself why someone would want 12 accounts with the same display name & avatar. You'll figure it out really quickly.

12? He boasted he had more than a thousand alts.
Just another soldier of Vova's little internet army.

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

For years direct digital sales had the word BUY in the digital transaction, the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.

The irony is that the same game which runs on the same licensing and requires the same service to run can still be 'bought' at a retail store.

I'm old enough to remember games needing just an .exe file to run.
And even older games ran on a C: prompt....it can be done.
Steam is just a middleman... really providing nothing you need to game.
And game forums existed before Steam.....

[Start_Running]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

Publicado originalmente por Start_Running:

Technically what you're selling is the physical medioa the music is on.
It's an artifcact of the old days where the medium and the content were inseperable. But now that thecontent can exist in abstraction from the medium. Things be different.

Heck having the physical medioum doesn't even mean you have the ability to use the content.
How many people bought a game at a garage sale only to find they didn't get a Cdkey, or the cdkey no working ::p

All I'm hearing is an excuse of not giving consumers any rights.

RIghts are never given m8. They are negotiated for and YOU AGREED to the terms of the sale, which also include what was being sold.
YUou as the customer have the right to refuse any deal orr contract.. fof course as with any meaningful hchoice there will be consequences.

You don't get to complain about the deal after you agree to it.
You don't get to complain about having to make hard choices.

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

Publicado originalmente por Tito Shivan:

12? He boasted he had more than a thousand alts.
Just another soldier of Vova's little internet army.


The irony is that the same game which runs on the same licensing and requires the same service to run can still be 'bought' at a retail store.

I'm old enough to remember games needing just an .exe file to run.
And even older games ran on a C: prompt....it can be done.
Steam is just a middleman... really providing nothing you need to game.
And game forums existed before Steam.....

Then you're welcome to stop using steam and buy onlyu games that require no service to run.
I too remember single exe file games. Dangerous Dave was fun.

[Tito Shivan]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

I'm old enough to remember games needing just an .exe file to run.
And even older games ran on a C: prompt....it can be done.

And it's still done. A significant number of Steam games run without Steam's DRM.

But times have changed. And more and more devs have decided to put the tools to be able to enforce the licensing terms themselves, because gamers love to grab the whole arm when given the hand.

That's why GOG hold only a small set of games. People who worry that much about DRM are a niche.

[Start_Running]

Publicado originalmente por Tito Shivan:

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

I'm old enough to remember games needing just an .exe file to run.
And even older games ran on a C: prompt....it can be done.

And it's still done. A significant number of Steam games run without Steam's DRM.

But times have changed. And more and more devs have decided to put the tools to be able to enforce the licensing terms themselves, because gamers love to grab the whole arm when given the hand.

That's why GOG hold only a small set of games. People who worry that much about DRM are a niche.

Bingo. And the games that don't have the DRM are typidcally the older games where rtying it into the checking API was more trouble than worth.

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

For years direct digital sales had the word BUY in the digital transaction, the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.

If anything they just codified the lacking of ownership and are permitting the practice to continue. Saying that people have already been lied to and do in fact own the the things they bought would be the right direction.

[Slav Mcgopnik]

Publicado originalmente por SKARDAVNELNATE:

Publicado originalmente por wbino:

For years direct digital sales had the word BUY in the digital transaction, the CA law makes it so that wording can't be used which is a step in the right direction.

If anything they just codified the lacking of ownership and are permitting the practice to continue. Saying that people have already been lied to and do in fact own the the things they bought would be the right direction.

The problem with that is that it implies you own the assets found in the game itself, which would be a nightmare for anyone trying to actually get an idea out there, if any schlub can just buy it and start reproducing it.

The license thing has always existed as a way to protect intellectual property while still allowing distribution.

[Start_Running]

Publicado originalmente por Slav Mcgopnik:

Publicado originalmente por SKARDAVNELNATE:

If anything they just codified the lacking of ownership and are permitting the practice to continue. Saying that people have already been lied to and do in fact own the the things they bought would be the right direction.

The problem with that is that it implies you own the assets found in the game itself, which would be a nightmare for anyone trying to actually get an idea out there, if any schlub can just buy it and start reproducing it.

The license thing has always existed as a way to protect intellectual property while still allowing distribution.

I mean every since digital distribution wa a thing and the technology allowed for the practical enforcement of those license terms things are a little different.

[SKARDAVNELNATE]

Publicado originalmente por Slav Mcgopnik:

The problem with that is that it implies you own the assets found in the game itself, which would be a nightmare for anyone trying to actually get an idea out there, if any schlub can just buy it and start reproducing it.

As I type this I'm holding in my other hand a copy of "The Screwtape Letters" by C. S. Lewis. I own this book. I bought it with my own money. Removing this book from my possession would be theft.

If I were to take a sentence from this book and claim it as my own that would be plagiarism. If I were to reproduce a page from this book and distribute it that would be copyright infringement. Acknowledging that I own this book doesn't negate other laws.

Just because something is digital and not an object I can hold doesn't mean that it should be considered any different. Restricting my access to it should be viewed the same as taking the book from hand. Just the same as reproducing something from it wouldn't be any different.