What the hell, Steam?

[craig234]

So, Steam has the right any time it wants, to modify the customers' rights, the legal agreements we signed up for, and if we don't agree to the changes we lose all access to our purchases?

[Squirrel With Acorn]

Originally posted by CSDX:

Hey, so I'm in an arbitration case thing with Mason LLP against Steam. I have tried contacting Mason about this via both email and phone call, and have yet to get a response. Anyone a legal expert here that can tell me if I end up ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over if I accept the updated Subscriber Agreement?

Read the new clause, it's retroactive so if you agree to it your arbritration case is no longer valid.

[Start_Running]

Originally posted by Purple:

Originally posted by CSDX:

Hey, so I'm in an arbitration case thing with Mason LLP against Steam. I have tried contacting Mason about this via both email and phone call, and have yet to get a response. Anyone a legal expert here that can tell me if I end up ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over if I accept the updated Subscriber Agreement?

Read the new clause, it's retroactive so if you agree to it your arbritration case is no longer valid.

Basically the law firm will have to pony it into court.
Thather than keep going through endless time fconsuming and money wasting arbitration with the hopes the company will just swat them with a settlement to be done with it. This lclause is bad news for scummy lawyers. Not for the consumer.

[Thrice]

Originally posted by Purple:

Originally posted by CSDX:

Hey, so I'm in an arbitration case thing with Mason LLP against Steam. I have tried contacting Mason about this via both email and phone call, and have yet to get a response. Anyone a legal expert here that can tell me if I end up ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over if I accept the updated Subscriber Agreement?

Read the new clause, it's retroactive so if you agree to it your arbritration case is no longer valid.

Just wait and call your agent/lawyer/rep. Nothing on Steam is so important you cant wait.

[CSDX]

Originally posted by Thrice:

Originally posted by Purple:

Read the new clause, it's retroactive so if you agree to it your arbritration case is no longer valid.

Just wait and call your agent/lawyer/rep. Nothing on Steam is so important you cant wait.

Understood. I did call them prior to this and even emailed them, but I've yet to get a response. Here's hoping things work out in all of this.

Also, it feels like there's way more sucking up to Valve than their should be.

[Boblin the Goblin]

Originally posted by Purple:

Originally posted by CSDX:

Hey, so I'm in an arbitration case thing with Mason LLP against Steam. I have tried contacting Mason about this via both email and phone call, and have yet to get a response. Anyone a legal expert here that can tell me if I end up ♥♥♥♥♥♥ over if I accept the updated Subscriber Agreement?

Read the new clause, it's retroactive so if you agree to it your arbritration case is no longer valid.

Except the new clause still allows arbitration. It just no longer forces it.

[Start_Running]

Originally posted by CSDX:

Originally posted by Thrice:

Just wait and call your agent/lawyer/rep. Nothing on Steam is so important you cant wait.

Understood. I did call them prior to this and even emailed them, but I've yet to get a response. Here's hoping things work out in all of this.

Also, it feels like there's way more sucking up to Valve than their should be.

Valve has basically just said. "No more middle man. See you in court.". and considering arbitration as a process tends to be stacked in the company's favour...this actually benefits the honest consumer.

Scummyu lawyers and lawfirms...not so much.

It's kinda funny how people wil decry the addition of a forced arbitration clause, and then turn around and decry the removal of a forced arbitration clause. People. Pick a lane.

[Stiletto]

Originally posted by CSDX:

Also, it feels like there's way more sucking up to Valve than their should be.

There's a limited amount of people that do this. Just don't refer to them as a group. Simply the suggestion of coordination of people to defend Valve/Steam on these forums gets people banned.

[Squirrel With Acorn]

Originally posted by Boblin the Goblin:

Originally posted by Purple:

Read the new clause, it's retroactive so if you agree to it your arbritration case is no longer valid.

Except the new clause still allows arbitration. It just no longer forces it.

New clause doesn't say it allows it, says all disputes must be done in courts in King county Washington.

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Purple:

Originally posted by Boblin the Goblin:

Except the new clause still allows arbitration. It just no longer forces it.

New clause doesn't say it allows it, says all disputes must be done in courts in King county Washington.

Actually if you read the old one it states the same thing about the location

10. APPLICABLE LAW/MEDIATION/JURISDICTION/ATTORNEYS’ FEES ⏶

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services; except that the U.S. Federal Arbitration Act governs arbitration as far as your country’s laws permit. Subject to Section 11 (Dispute Resolution/Binding Arbitration/Class Action Waiver) below, you and Valve agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising out of or relating to this Agreement, your use of Steam, your account, or the Content and Services, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys’ fees and expenses (except arbitration -- see Section 11.C.)

This is why facts are important. They can refute false claims

[Squirrel With Acorn]

Originally posted by Start_Running:

Originally posted by CSDX:

Understood. I did call them prior to this and even emailed them, but I've yet to get a response. Here's hoping things work out in all of this.

Also, it feels like there's way more sucking up to Valve than their should be.

Valve has basically just said. "No more middle man. See you in court.". and considering arbitration as a process tends to be stacked in the company's favour...this actually benefits the honest consumer.

Scummyu lawyers and lawfirms...not so much.

It's kinda funny how people wil decry the addition of a forced arbitration clause, and then turn around and decry the removal of a forced arbitration clause. People. Pick a lane.

Courts are even more stacked in favor of the corporation.

44% of consumer initiated arbitration go in favor of the consumer, where as 30% of consumer initiated court cases go in the favor of the consumer.

https://instituteforlegalreform.com/what-you-need-to-know-about-arbitration/#:~:text=Consumers%20are%20more%20likely%20to,than%20they%20do%20in%20litigation

Plus Valve just put a huge financial barrier for the consumer to do a legal dispute against Valve unless the person lives close to King County Washington provided they can afford the legal dispute fees and other costs.

Otherwise if you don't have enough money to pay court fees and other costs, and not able to pay for your travel and accomodations to Washington to show up in court, then there is no legal recourse for that consumer. At least with the arbritration agreement Valve paid for all the fees and it could be conducted over the phone or Zoom.

[Squirrel With Acorn]

[

Originally posted by Brian9824:

Originally posted by Purple:

New clause doesn't say it allows it, says all disputes must be done in courts in King county Washington.

Actually if you read the old one it states the same thing about the location

10. APPLICABLE LAW/MEDIATION/JURISDICTION/ATTORNEYS’ FEES ⏶

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services; except that the U.S. Federal Arbitration Act governs arbitration as far as your country’s laws permit. Subject to Section 11 (Dispute Resolution/Binding Arbitration/Class Action Waiver) below, you and Valve agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising out of or relating to this Agreement, your use of Steam, your account, or the Content and Services, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys’ fees and expenses (except arbitration -- see Section 11.C.)

This is why facts are important. They can refute false claims

You are wrong about the arbritration clause for 2 reasons. The section you are showing is in case of disputes that would go to court, it's not related to the arbitration though. Old agreement spelled out what could be taken to court which was very little. Everything else was through arbritration, which allowed it to be conducted over something like the phone, and the arbritration organization that Valve picked also allowed it to be conducted over the phone/zoom/ect.

The AAA will administer the arbitration. Outside the U.S., Valve will select a neutral arbitration provider that uses these or similar rules. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240925000911/https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

[Brian9824]

Originally posted by Purple:

[
You are wrong about the arbritration clause for 2 reasons. The section you are showing is in case of disputes that would go to court, it's not related to the arbitration though.
Old agreement spelled out what could be taken to court which was very little.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240925000911/https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

False your a bit mixed up, you quoted section 11 - https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

If you look at the most recent one you will note section TEN which I posted is the one on the old/new that mentions where it occurs.

Section 10 - old

10. APPLICABLE LAW/MEDIATION/JURISDICTION/ATTORNEYS’ FEES ⏶

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services; except that the U.S. Federal Arbitration Act governs arbitration as far as your country’s laws permit. Subject to Section 11 (Dispute Resolution/Binding Arbitration/Class Action Waiver) below, you and Valve agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising out of or relating to this Agreement, your use of Steam, your account, or the Content and Services, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys’ fees and expenses (except arbitration -- see Section 11.C.)

Section 10 - new

10. APPLICABLE LAW/JURISDICTION ⏶

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all disputes and claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services. You and Valve agree that all disputes and claims between you and Valve (including any dispute or claim that arose before the existence of this or any prior agreement) shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts and waive any objections as to personal jurisdiction or venue in such courts.

If the laws where you live mandate alternative dispute resolution options, you may seek a remedy under those options. If you are a consumer who lives in Russia, you may also seek a remedy with local Russian state courts.

As you can see the jurisdiction mentioning the Washington courts remains the same between the two.

[mldb88]

Originally posted by Purple:

[

Originally posted by Brian9824:

Actually if you read the old one it states the same thing about the location


This is why facts are important. They can refute false claims

You are wrong about the arbritration clause for 2 reasons. The section you are showing is in case of disputes that would go to court, it's not related to the arbitration though. Old agreement spelled out what could be taken to court which was very little. Everything else was through arbritration, which allowed it to be conducted over something like the phone, and the arbritration organization that Valve picked also allowed it to be conducted over the phone/zoom/ect.

The AAA will administer the arbitration. Outside the U.S., Valve will select a neutral arbitration provider that uses these or similar rules. It may be conducted through the submission of documents, by phone, or in person in the county where you live or at another mutually agreed location.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240925000911/https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

Which only applies to arbitration...which again opened the floodgates for these ambulance chaser type arbitrations that were basically scams leaving consumers holding the bag. As for actual court proceedings which is the only way to go now outside of steam support, literally nothing has changed in regards to the location.

It's basically Valve's way of saying if the issue is that severe that legal action is your next step, here's an even playing field, let the courts decide. No more of this frivilous mass arbitration bully tactics ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that these more scummy law firms have been using (and in some cases had action taken AGAINST them for abuse by the very court system itself).

[Squirrel With Acorn]

Originally posted by Brian9824:

Originally posted by Purple:

[
You are wrong about the arbritration clause for 2 reasons. The section you are showing is in case of disputes that would go to court, it's not related to the arbitration though.
Old agreement spelled out what could be taken to court which was very little.

https://web.archive.org/web/20240925000911/https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

False your a bit mixed up, you quoted section 11 - https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

If you look at the most recent one you will note section TEN which I posted is the one on the old/new that mentions where it occurs.

Section 10 - old

10. APPLICABLE LAW/MEDIATION/JURISDICTION/ATTORNEYS’ FEES ⏶

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services; except that the U.S. Federal Arbitration Act governs arbitration as far as your country’s laws permit. Subject to Section 11 (Dispute Resolution/Binding Arbitration/Class Action Waiver) below, you and Valve agree that any claim asserted in any legal proceeding shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts. In any dispute arising out of or relating to this Agreement, your use of Steam, your account, or the Content and Services, the prevailing party will be entitled to attorneys’ fees and expenses (except arbitration -- see Section 11.C.)

Section 10 - new

10. APPLICABLE LAW/JURISDICTION ⏶

For All Subscribers Outside the European Union and United Kingdom:

You and Valve agree that this Agreement shall be deemed to have been made and executed in the State of Washington, U.S.A., and Washington law, excluding conflict of laws principles and the Convention on Contracts for the International Sale of Goods, governs all disputes and claims arising out of or relating to: (i) any aspect of the relationship between us; (ii) this Agreement; or (iii) your use of Steam, your Account or the Content and Services. You and Valve agree that all disputes and claims between you and Valve (including any dispute or claim that arose before the existence of this or any prior agreement) shall be commenced and maintained exclusively in any state or federal court located in King County, Washington, having subject matter jurisdiction. You and Valve hereby consent to the exclusive jurisdiction of such courts and waive any objections as to personal jurisdiction or venue in such courts.

If the laws where you live mandate alternative dispute resolution options, you may seek a remedy under those options. If you are a consumer who lives in Russia, you may also seek a remedy with local Russian state courts.

As you can see the jurisdiction mentioning the Washington courts remains the same between the two.

Arbitration is NOT conducted in the courts, therefore section 10 of previous agreement had no affect on venue for the arbitration.

New agreement removes the arbitration method. Making everything I said correct, and you are wrong since you are talking about something different.

[Squirrel With Acorn]

Originally posted by mldb88:

Originally posted by Purple:

[



You are wrong about the arbritration clause for 2 reasons. The section you are showing is in case of disputes that would go to court, it's not related to the arbitration though. Old agreement spelled out what could be taken to court which was very little. Everything else was through arbritration, which allowed it to be conducted over something like the phone, and the arbritration organization that Valve picked also allowed it to be conducted over the phone/zoom/ect.



https://web.archive.org/web/20240925000911/https://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement/#11

Which only applies to arbitration...which again opened the floodgates for these ambulance chaser type arbitrations that were basically scams leaving consumers holding the bag. As for actual court proceedings which is the only way to go now outside of steam support, literally nothing has changed in regards to the location.

It's basically Valve's way of saying if the issue is that severe that legal action is your next step, here's an even playing field, let the courts decide. No more of this frivilous mass arbitration bully tactics ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that these more scummy law firms have been using (and in some cases had action taken AGAINST them for abuse by the very court system itself).

What's funny is that Zaiger originally did try for class action for consumers, attached to the Wolfire v Valve class action, but Valve argued the consumer class couldnt do class action because of arbritration agreement, so judge dismissed the consumer class from the case. That is when the mass arbritration stuff started.

and in some cases had action taken AGAINST them for abuse by the very court system itself

That didn't happen.