Early Access Is Ruining PC Gaming and Steam.

[Morisato]

So i've been thinking this for awhile So many Games now On Steam and we only get a Finished game Ocassionally, Developers sit in Early access for years On years and We Buy the game play it In A Pre alpha State get bored and Likely never ever touch it again.

Really Early Access is One of the few reasons I refuse to convert to PC fully At least My Cruddy Console games are Fully Finished and Not missing critical content.


So Folks weigh in Is Early Access the Bane of all pc gamers? has Steam made a huge error allowing so many? myself i think a game in early access should be in a Open Beta stage Anything not to that point Should not be allowed on steam as EA Perhaps we need a New Moniker for those kinda games... Say We Call it Prealpha? I mean I see people making game bones and tossing up crap that has like no Content and crashes half the time...

[Amarok]

Tsal Vlaxitov の投稿を引用：

"Percieved reality"

Amarok の投稿を引用：

From a legal standpoint and even from a business one, I would tend to agree with you that the way things are is 'technically' fine

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=664824115

WOW - Could you take my comment any more out of context??? I was illustrating the point that irrespective of whether Steam is protected from a legal/business standpoint, that they should consider taking actions in the consumers best interest NOW rather than later.

I'm not a legal professional, I have no FACTUAL idea if they're management of the EAG platform is legally sound, but I think that from a technical perspective, it probably is, unless their legal dept is in the habit of trying their luck and hoping that nobody amongst their millions of customers has the knowledge to know otherwise...

[Start_Running]

Amarok の投稿を引用：

@Start Running

Thanks for taking the time to respond :)

I'm in an odd position really because I (PERSONALLY) enjoy the EAG platform as is, and so for me to be satisifed, not much has to change, but I temper that with the knowledge that I only speak for me, and that is where my concern as to how EAG are perceived comes from.

One of my long standing points has been : teh difference between a satisfied and unsatisfied customer is the difference in time taken to review and research their purchase.

People who buy things blindly will inherently be more prone to dissatisfaction than those who take the time toe research and inform themselves. This is true of any purchase in any product.

I went looking the other day for groups that are 'happy' with EAG because I thought it might be a good way to hear about upcoming titles etc, and though I found one, the thing that struck me was how many 'anti-EAG' groups already exist.

Those that are content are the majority, the norm they don't really feel the need to band together to make a collective shout. They're busy playing their games with their friends who are also enjoying. ALso consider this thread and ask yourself. How many of the dissenters actually show any actual knowledge about the game industry or software engineering or longtyerm project. By gods many consider a 3 year development time for a game to be long and that should be a fair enough hint as to how reasonable their expectations were in the first place.

This bothered me, because perceived reality can often be every bit as damaging as actual reality and as such, it occured to me that some measured adjustments to the medium may encourage its growth and popularity.

At this point i don't think what EAG needs is a growth in popularity. EAG was never intended for everyone it was as one put it. meant for 'Power Users' and those are invariably the buyers that take the time to properly udnerstand the terms, limitation and do appropriate research before vuying.

The problem comes from the twitch buys. the mainstream buyers. Those that hear about this new game and immediately want to jump in without taking the time. You may notice you see a large surge of such threads around when a new popular EAG pops up. FOr example.. when ARK released.

The comments I referenced earlier (taken from RedLightning's post) that voiced concerns about the long term effects of 'perceived reality' to the EAG platform are essentially my reasons for wanting to investigate ways to make the EAG platform more palatable to the masses.

You can't change the perceptions of those who have already decided what they wish to perceive. It's like the escrow thing. DO you think if the impact on trading reflected the amount of outrage you see on the forums that the market would be anything but a ghost town?

As Mary Poppins said, a spoonful of sugar... etc, and I genuinely think a measured show from Steam that provided a little more assurance to the consumer and a little less 'wiggle room' for the developer may (over time) allow EAG to flourish.

Medicine is something one is obliged to take for one's own well being. This more:

'spoonful of sugar with the black coffee I specifically requested without cream or sugar.'
One is not required or obliged to purchase EAG's one can opt to wait for the game to be finished.. which I will disclose is my prefered choice. I have never deliberately purchased a game in early access. I do however own several games that were formerly EAG's See how that works. If you want to eat spicy death peppers , then eat them but don't go complaining that the spicy death peppers were spicy.

From a legal standpoint and even from a business one, I would tend to agree with you that the way things are is 'technically' fine, but Steam taking voluntary steps now would represent a far more meaningful act than those steps it could be made (potentially!!!!) to take later...

But the question is.. do they need to? SHould they even try to? THe more you try to meet the unreasonable expectations of customers, the more unreasonable expectations you encourage of them

[BlackSpawn]

Amarok の投稿を引用：

Tsal Vlaxitov の投稿を引用：

"Percieved reality"



http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=664824115

WOW - Could you take my comment any more out of context??? I was illustrating the point that irrespective of whether Steam is protected from a legal/business standpoint, that they should consider taking actions in the consumers best interest NOW rather than later.

I'm not a legal professional, I have no FACTUAL idea if they're management of the EAG platform is legally sound, but I think that from a technical perspective, it probably is, unless their legal dept is in the habit of trying their luck and hoping that nobody amongst their millions of customers has the knowledge to know otherwise...

The EAG terms were NOT legally sound, actually; not initially.
Not until the current tweaks where they made clear that there was NO promise of a completed game.

Basically, the terms of service were made even more vague and non comittal in order to avoid the multiple infractions that they had accrued in the past, including instances of false advertising and purely failed/abandoned/incomplete projects (at least a couple of them requiring refunds to some degree.) Both TOS and developer's documentation on EAG were updated to reflect these changes in policy.

This is an insightful article on the legal perspective.
Let it be known that legality is different from fair, reasonable or moral terms of service/practices.

http://venturebeat.com/2014/06/05/steam-early-access-rights/view-all/

[76561198255312804]

click here installing#

[Tsal Vlaxitov]

Amarok の投稿を引用：

Tsal Vlaxitov の投稿を引用：

"Percieved reality"



http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=664824115

WOW - Could you take my comment any more out of context??? I was illustrating the point that irrespective of whether Steam is protected from a legal/business standpoint, that they should consider taking actions in the consumers best interest NOW rather than later.

I'm not a legal professional, I have no FACTUAL idea if they're management of the EAG platform is legally sound, but I think that from a technical perspective, it probably is, unless their legal dept is in the habit of trying their luck and hoping that nobody amongst their millions of customers has the knowledge to know otherwise...

It doesn't matter if its "legally sound" or not.

It all boils down to the same circular reasoning, nitpicking the details of the example I gave doesnt' change that.

I love how when you actually starting looking objectively at what people really thought about EA, it broke your "perceived reality" of what people thought about EA. Then your answer to that was that people who don't love it have a distorted "perceived reality," unlike you who can see it clearly.

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

It wasnt legally sound, actually.
Until the current tweaks were they made clear that there was NO promise of a completed game.

No such promise exists even now.

Let it be known that legality is different from fair, reasonable, moral or acceptable terms of service/practices.

That is because fair, reasonable, moral and acceptable are all subjective terms no three people will agree on. LAw and legal is something that has been vetted and agreed upon by the legislative body and applies universally.

Moral - Some people consider it immoral for people of the same sex to be married.

Fair - People once thought it fair for people of color to be paid less than a white person for the same job. SOme people still consider it fair for women to earn less than a male of similar qualification for the same job.

Reasonable - Some consider it reasonable for the government to cut spending on services (they do not use) so that can enjoy lower taxes.

Acceptable - Some people consider increased research and caution to be an acceptable countermeasure to the risk of EAG's others do not :)

See why no one of sound mind puts much stock in those terms?

[BlackSpawn]

Well, nitpick all you want.
Case in point:the fact that a practice is LEGAL doesnt mean that its the appropriate way to conduct business.

Perhaps the terms of service are in need of iteration in order to IMPROVE the platform EVEN THOUGH a crime may not be necessarily being committed at the moment (debatable in some cases of misleading advertisement tbh).

[Start_Running]

Tsal Vlaxitov の投稿を引用：

It all boils down to the same circular reasoning, nitpicking the details of the example I gave doesnt' change that.

FActs, truth and sound logic tend to be circular. Even in maths

1+1 =2 because 2-1=1 therefore 1+1=2 because...

[Amarok]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

Amarok の投稿を引用：

@Start Running

Thanks for taking the time to respond :)

I'm in an odd position really because I (PERSONALLY) enjoy the EAG platform as is, and so for me to be satisifed, not much has to change, but I temper that with the knowledge that I only speak for me, and that is where my concern as to how EAG are perceived comes from.

One of my long standing points has been : teh difference between a satisfied and unsatisfied customer is the difference in time taken to review and research their purchase.

People who buy things blindly will inherently be more prone to dissatisfaction than those who take the time toe research and inform themselves. This is true of any purchase in any product.

I went looking the other day for groups that are 'happy' with EAG because I thought it might be a good way to hear about upcoming titles etc, and though I found one, the thing that struck me was how many 'anti-EAG' groups already exist.

Those that are content are the majority, the norm they don't really feel the need to band together to make a collective shout. They're busy playing their games with their friends who are also enjoying. ALso consider this thread and ask yourself. How many of the dissenters actually show any actual knowledge about the game industry or software engineering or longtyerm project. By gods many consider a 3 year development time for a game to be long and that should be a fair enough hint as to how reasonable their expectations were in the first place.

This bothered me, because perceived reality can often be every bit as damaging as actual reality and as such, it occured to me that some measured adjustments to the medium may encourage its growth and popularity.

At this point i don't think what EAG needs is a growth in popularity. EAG was never intended for everyone it was as one put it. meant for 'Power Users' and those are invariably the buyers that take the time to properly udnerstand the terms, limitation and do appropriate research before vuying.

The problem comes from the twitch buys. the mainstream buyers. Those that hear about this new game and immediately want to jump in without taking the time. You may notice you see a large surge of such threads around when a new popular EAG pops up. FOr example.. when ARK released.

The comments I referenced earlier (taken from RedLightning's post) that voiced concerns about the long term effects of 'perceived reality' to the EAG platform are essentially my reasons for wanting to investigate ways to make the EAG platform more palatable to the masses.

You can't change the perceptions of those who have already decided what they wish to perceive. It's like the escrow thing. DO you think if the impact on trading reflected the amount of outrage you see on the forums that the market would be anything but a ghost town?

As Mary Poppins said, a spoonful of sugar... etc, and I genuinely think a measured show from Steam that provided a little more assurance to the consumer and a little less 'wiggle room' for the developer may (over time) allow EAG to flourish.

Medicine is something one is obliged to take for one's own well being. This more:

'spoonful of sugar with the black coffee I specifically requested without cream or sugar.'
One is not required or obliged to purchase EAG's one can opt to wait for the game to be finished.. which I will disclose is my prefered choice. I have never deliberately purchased a game in early access. I do however own several games that were formerly EAG's See how that works. If you want to eat spicy death peppers , then eat them but don't go complaining that the spicy death peppers were spicy.

From a legal standpoint and even from a business one, I would tend to agree with you that the way things are is 'technically' fine, but Steam taking voluntary steps now would represent a far more meaningful act than those steps it could be made (potentially!!!!) to take later...

But the question is.. do they need to? SHould they even try to? The more you try to meet the unreasonable expectations of customers, the more unreasonable expectations you encourage of them

It's an interesting point that you (and Fluxtorrent) have made that EAG should not be mainstream and that does change things somewhat...

Truthfully, I need to give that some thought before I post anything else about it because it isn't something I'd really considered.

I was working on the premise that Steam would want the EAG market to grow without restraint, but if they are content to allow EAG to remain a sub-category, a niche designed to appeal to the few, not the many, then that does have a distinct impact on how it needs to be handled and marketed...

Those sorts of comments are exactly why I haven't given up on this thread, because every so often, someone says something genuinely interesting that actually forces you to revisit your perspective! :)

[Start_Running]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

Well, nitpick all you want.
Case in point:the fact that a practice is LEGAL doesnt mean that its the appropriate way to conduct business.

Perhaps the terms of service are in need of iteration in order to IMPROVE the platform EVEN THOUGH a crime may not be necessarily being committed at the moment.

Legal offers a far more consistent framework for conducting long term business rather than the whims of the voices in ones head on a particular day.

and Improve it for whom. Why seek to please those who don't take the time to understand anything. Ideally these are the people you don't want as customers.

[BlackSpawn]

You do realize that they ARE marketng to the masses and in the main store page towards ALL users, right? Perhaps making it a niche and placing EAG in its own little page that you'd have to search for may help with the issues; but that is not what transpires at the moment.

[BlackSpawn]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

Well, nitpick all you want.
Case in point:the fact that a practice is LEGAL doesnt mean that its the appropriate way to conduct business.

Perhaps the terms of service are in need of iteration in order to IMPROVE the platform EVEN THOUGH a crime may not be necessarily being committed at the moment.

Legal offers a far more consistent framework for conducting long term business rather than the whims of the voices in ones head on a particular day.

and Improve it for whom. Why seek to please those who don't take the time to understand anything. Ideally these are the people you don't want as customers.

Legality is also a relatively evolving construct.
What is legal here may not be legal in Australia, as the current class action lawsuit vs Steam refund policy proved.
Laws evolve and consumer advocacy groups, AKA FTC, pay notice when potentially anticonsumer practices may take place.
I wouldnt be surprised if that were the case with EAG in the near future if nothing were to change.

Improving the platform for HONEST developers and consumers.
DISCINCENTIVIZE abuse/misuse of the platform by unscrupulous/incompetent developers.

[Amarok]

Tsal Vlaxitov の投稿を引用：

Amarok の投稿を引用：

WOW - Could you take my comment any more out of context??? I was illustrating the point that irrespective of whether Steam is protected from a legal/business standpoint, that they should consider taking actions in the consumers best interest NOW rather than later.

I'm not a legal professional, I have no FACTUAL idea if they're management of the EAG platform is legally sound, but I think that from a technical perspective, it probably is, unless their legal dept is in the habit of trying their luck and hoping that nobody amongst their millions of customers has the knowledge to know otherwise...

It doesn't matter if its "legally sound" or not.

It all boils down to the same circular reasoning, nitpicking the details of the example I gave doesnt' change that.

I love how when you actually starting looking objectively at what people really thought about EA, it broke your "perceived reality" of what people thought about EA. Then your answer to that was that people who don't love it have a distorted "perceived reality," unlike you who can see it clearly.

I'm not getting into nonsense with you Tsal, of all those I consider to be most prone to driving the topic off track, you are amongst the worst.

You took me out of context. That's a fact.

Was my perception affected by something? Yes, because my views remain fluid, not bound by the constraints of some deluded certainty that I'm right.

[Start_Running]

Amarok の投稿を引用：

It's an interesting point that you (and Fluxtorrent) have made that EAG should not be mainstream and that does change things somewhat...

Truthfully, I need to give that some thought before I post anything else about it because it isn't something I'd really considered.

I was working on the premise that Steam would want the EAG market to grow without restraint, but if they are content to allow EAG to remain a sub-category, a niche designed to appeal to the few, not the many, then that does have a distinct impact on how it needs to be handled and marketed...

There is growth, and then there is growth. But you want growth to be among the demographic that best understands and uses the offerings given. In more crass terms.

You don't increase your market for straight interacial porn by adding M/M scenes to your movies. Sure technically you're product appeals to a wider audience on paper but in fact you just created something no one will fully enjoy. This is the drawback of mainstream. You become the McDonalds rather than the Ruby Tuesday.

Those sorts of comments are exactly why I haven't given up on this thread, because every so often, someone says something genuinely interesting that actually forces you to revisit your perspective! :)

The problem is we are starting to get rather fatigued about having to bring the same point up everytime someone opens one of these threads without bothering to read the last fifty such threads.

[BlackSpawn]

BlackSpawn の投稿を引用：

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

Legal offers a far more consistent framework for conducting long term business rather than the whims of the voices in ones head on a particular day.

and Improve it for whom. Why seek to please those who don't take the time to understand anything. Ideally these are the people you don't want as customers.

Legality is also a relatively evolving construct.
What is legal here may not be legal in Australia, as the current class action lawsuit vs Steam refund policy proved.
Laws evolve and consumer advocacy groups, AKA FTC, pay notice when potentially anticonsumer practices may take place.
I wouldnt be surprised if that were the case with EAG in the near future if nothing were to change.

Improving the platform for HONEST developers and consumers.
DISCINCENTIVIZE abuse/misuse of the platform by unscrupulous/incompetent developers.

Because sometimes the bare legal minimum doesnt do enough when potential anticonsumer practices are in play.