Early Access Is Ruining PC Gaming and Steam.

[Morisato]

So i've been thinking this for awhile So many Games now On Steam and we only get a Finished game Ocassionally, Developers sit in Early access for years On years and We Buy the game play it In A Pre alpha State get bored and Likely never ever touch it again.

Really Early Access is One of the few reasons I refuse to convert to PC fully At least My Cruddy Console games are Fully Finished and Not missing critical content.


So Folks weigh in Is Early Access the Bane of all pc gamers? has Steam made a huge error allowing so many? myself i think a game in early access should be in a Open Beta stage Anything not to that point Should not be allowed on steam as EA Perhaps we need a New Moniker for those kinda games... Say We Call it Prealpha? I mean I see people making game bones and tossing up crap that has like no Content and crashes half the time...

[fluxtorrent]

Celerity, Executor of Impunity の投稿を引用：

You call that a personal attack and not the responses. i rest my case. Now, anyone else aside this obvious Early Access apologist wanna try?

You keep squaking about blind dismissals but love to throw them out there himself. I must be the mirror you hate the most.

[Vhoxz]

I agree with the OP (a bit). Now let's get one thing straight: I have discovered many great games in early access, However I've seen more games in early access being abandoned or half-arsed by developers.
Personally i think early access needs to be redesigned a bit.
There should be a maximum amount of time of early access for games.
IF the game is not finished or has not recieved any content updates over a period of time, people should see a warning on the store page.
I totally get that some devs don't have the funds to release games and need EA cash. However, when there are no (content) updates for a game for let's say a year that means to me the devs no longer have interest in finishing the game.

[Vhoxz]

WhiteKnight77 の投稿を引用：

Do you understand how long game development really takes? While there is a Call of Duty game released on a yearly basis, there are 3 studios who work on one at a time. That is probably a 3 year development cycle for it and that also using legacy code. Developing a game from the ground up takes longer still. That the Early Access program is not quite 3 years old, what you claim shows that you too do not understand how long development takes.

Last year Electronic Arts was scheduled to release just 3 games and not one of them making it to Steam. All major developers and publishers have reduced the number of games they release over the course of a year and that has been going on since at least 2009. They stopped helping out the indie developers that produce the "hidden" gems that make a big splash in gaming.

Of course EA isn't releasing on steam they have something called Origin

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

About the only thing I'd describe as Early Access (the process) done right is GoG's take on it. Mostly because there are actual quality controls and failsafes, the garbage won't make it through because everyone will revert patch/refund/etc. Derpest Dungeon for example would have never made it through their screening process.

[Meow]

+

[Start_Running]

The Brown Hornet の投稿を引用：

Isn't that what Forums are generally for Start Running, to post concerns, issues, troubleshooting, glitches, problems, anger, etc...

You may notice most game and yes even early access forums have a sticky thready devoted to reporting and responding to glitches and bugs and other such problems.

With many of these ahem...Early Access forums, the so called Devs are deleting post that references problems, bugs, lack of creativity, timelines, lack of major updates, lazy development, etc...

You do realize that of the 6 things you mention only two have actual valid information. THe rest are either personal attacks. 'lack of creativity, lazy development' Again. When you work hard to create something like a game, a painting or a novel. See how well you take to that. THe more seasoned creative souls simply ignore it. But if it keeps getting splashed on their forums they are going to remove such useless personal attacks from their sight.

its as if all they want is positive everything is awesome threads! The Dayz forum in particular will lock a thread the minute it starts to reference major problems, issues, and especially the "how long does this game plan to be in Early Access" concerns.

BEcause that question is not unlike a ten year old in the back seat asking 'Are we thare yet?' every ten minutes.

I find devs who do this to indeed be corrupt, decietful, and dishonorable. Hence why I personally will never buy and EAG, I honestly can't believe PC gamers have fell for this, so called master race, yeah right.

I have yet to purchase an Early Access game myself.. but I have purchased several that came out of early access. FOr m,e it is simply a matter of priorit.y WIsh list ofis stocked with finished games I'm interested in. Finished games trump unfinished where my money is concerned.

[Start_Running]

Celerity, Executor of Impunity の投稿を引用：

JRPGs are less grindy, all of them. Even Disgaea 1. They also have the whole comic humor angle. Derpest has nothing but grind, zero Roguelike elements, zero Hardcore elements, zero actual choices. Nothing.

Okay the fact the JRPG you mention is DIsgea Kinda says how much history you have with video games. Likely not even old enough to remember ROgue, whiuch really was just a rip off of nethack.

Now you're just trolling fiercely. Show me what real Roguelikes you've tried and have meaningful experience with.

Hmm? Lets see now.
Rogue, Nethack, Dungeons of Djenol, Rogue Legacy, FTL, DIablo 1 could also be considered heavily influenced by rogue since the quests were linked to randomly generated levels. ANd with the Hardcore mode mode and permadeath it brings it certainly has the feel of a roguelike.

DOn't starve also is a rather harsh roguelike.

Lets See now. Lufia 1 and 2 bothe featured rogue styule random dungeons, as did Tales of Destiny. Shadowrun for the Gensis/MEgadrive also could be counted as rogue influenced. since the runs were pretty random and you could just endlessly play doing nothing but the runs for the various johnsons.

Need I list more sonny? I saw the birth of the roguelike genre. Though technically it should becalled Nethack like. but I condede that rogue was more prevalent on the BBS's at the time.

Prove you know anything at all of the genre. Because right now, you're a shill who isn't even hiding the absurdity of their arguments (more Roguelike than Rogue... LMFAO).

ANyone who actually knows Roguelike knows that basically they are grind fests. YOu spawn explore, die, wash rinse repeat. With a roguelike it's never so much a question of beating the game as it is just seeing how long you last.


I've been through the ruins in DD about 40 times now. I can't say I've seen a repeat of the encounters and events between any two runs. The heart of a roguelike game is that you can never be sure what each play through is going to yield. You can't even predict the number or arangement of the rooms in DD or at least I haven't seen a pattern yet. So yeah, Meets the requirement of a roguelike.

RIght now you're more or less just coming off as a hater who just hs some personal grudge against the developer.

As for difficult. I will admit there are certain game breaking combinations but one does not have to use them. The thing about ROguelikes is , you choose how you approach it. Also when roguelikes are too unforgiving, people tend to whine and cry about how it's not skill but just RNG.

[The Brown Hornet]

For those who paid $34.99 I think they deserve to know how long this game plans to be in Early Access. If they can take a consumers money then they can answer a consumers question.

[fluxtorrent]

The Brown Hornet の投稿を引用：

For those who paid $34.99 I think they deserve to know how long this game plans to be in Early Access.

Which game is that?

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

I picked Disgaea 1 because it's the most grindy JRPG I could name. If you wanted older games I could have mentioned Nethack, or Wizardry, but see you didn't say that. This is what we call moving the goal posts.

Now look carefully at what I said:

"Now you're just trolling fiercely. Show me what real Roguelikes you've tried and have meaningful experience with."

See those last three words, the meaningful experience with? They're very important. Here, let me show you why.

"Rogue, Nethack, Dungeons of Djenol, Rogue Legacy, FTL, DIablo 1 could also be considered heavily influenced by rogue since the quests were linked to randomly generated levels. ANd with the Hardcore mode mode and permadeath it brings it certainly has the feel of a roguelike."

You clearly just Googled the term and picked out a few names, that's why you freely mix Roguelites and Roguelikes, and when you go in any level of detail at all you immediately make grievious factual errors that no one with even 5 minutes of experience with the game would make. You see, Diablo 1 does not have a Hardcore mode or permadeath. This was added in Diablo 2, which came several years later and who also ditched those other few Roguelike elements.

Anyone who actually knew these games, and knew gaming would know this. You did not. QED.

Now, Derpest Dungeon. Here is how every run in every area goes, without variation:

You load your team with damage spam, because anything else is an obvious mistake.
You wander down the single narrow hallway.
You spam damage on the different skins that appear, and you win.
You encounter the Giant Alien Spiders event, under various skins.
You win.
You repeat this grind about oh, 100 times.

Because stuff like "fighting bandits vs fighting pigs", or "90% of rooms vs 100% of room battles" or "iron maiden vs dinner cart" has zero impact on your decision making, it's just a skin, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the game.

The last part is particularly hilarious because the map generator is laughably constrained. That joke about generating long narrow hallways? It actually does, around 90% of the time. You see the number of rooms is static, that means there's few possible combinations. The ranges on say... AoE bait encounters, or invisible hunger traps are well... ranges, they're not static, but all that means is you use your AoE bait, bring whatever food and shovels the maximum requires, etc.

And then you look at even a Roguelite, where boarding vs gunship actually influences your decisions just as a basic example and it's not even a contest.

This is a dungeon crawler:

http://images.akamai.steamusercontent.com/ugc/48734920095070743/2C8E072FB7D7705BD02BFB8E8D27130BCC60E645/

That's one of 92 dungeon levels. It's also one of the earliest and tamest.

But keep ignoring all that and tell me about this amazing hardcore Roguelike, but only if you have no concept of the term beyond Google searches, and handicap yourself hard as basic intelligence and common sense is a game breaker, etc.

[Start_Running]

The Brown Hornet の投稿を引用：

For those who paid $34.99 I think they deserve to know how long this game plans to be in Early Access. If they can take a consumers money then they can answer a consumers question.

The consumers are told up front before they fork over their money that there is no definite timeline. If timeline was a key factor in the ourchase decision. the lack of one would mean a denial of purchase. Those who find such things meaningful would not purchase.

It's not like EA has ever hidden the fact that games will be done when they are done. The whole point of teh Early Access program is to give developers a more favourable development environment where they don't have to worry about deadlines. Which coicnidentally account for the reason most AAA releases are blatant bug fests and you have such a thing as Day 1 DLC.

[Hatch]

Buying an early access game is like buying a car without wheels. You just hope one day they'll send the wheels. Most of the time when they show up the tires are flat. But you can't get a refund because you've already ran the engine (played the game) so you're stuck with junk.

[Start_Running]

Celerity, Executor of Impunity の投稿を引用：

I picked Disgaea 1 because it's the most grindy JRPG I could name. If you wanted older games I could have mentioned Nethack, or Wizardry, but see you didn't say that. This is what we call moving the goal posts.

Lol seriously thats what you consider grindy. Oh my, are you a johny come lately. Try the classic NES Dragon Warrior Trilogy. not the rereleased milk watter that the pout out on GBA and GBC. the actual nes ones.

Heck, Wizardry isn't really that grindy compared to it's contempraries like Might and mAgic or Bards Tale.

Now look carefully at what I said:

"Now you're just trolling fiercely. Show me what real Roguelikes you've tried and have meaningful experience with."

See those last three words, the meaningful experience with? They're very important. Here, let me show you why.

"Rogue, Nethack, Dungeons of Djenol, Rogue Legacy, FTL, DIablo 1 could also be considered heavily influenced by rogue since the quests were linked to randomly generated levels. ANd with the Hardcore mode mode and permadeath it brings it certainly has the feel of a roguelike."

You clearly just Googled the term and picked out a few names, that's why you freely mix Roguelites and Roguelikes, and when you go in any level of detail at all you immediately make grievious factual errors that no one with even 5 minutes of experience with the game would make. You see, Diablo 1 does not have a Hardcore mode or permadeath. This was added in Diablo 2, which came several years later and who also ditched those other few Roguelike elements

Okay admit I got DIablo 1 and 2 (can you blame me?) confused Diablo 1 did indeed not have permadeath out of the box. And diablo 2 did didtch the quests being linked to the dungeon levels. The area maps themselves though are randomly generated just with a limited set of possibiliies
As for the others. How does 239 hours in FTL strike you, or 29 hours in ROgue legacy (considering how long the avg Roguelegacy play session is. thats quite a lot).


\As for the others. again. You're making assumptions sweetheart,.. I mean i could question your meaningful experience.

Anyone who actually knew these games, and knew gaming would know this. You did not. QED.

So you pull an error and obviously I must have just googled. *sigh*.

Now, Derpest Dungeon. Here is how every run in every area goes, without variation:

You load your team with damage spam, because anything else is an obvious mistake.
You wander down the single narrow hallway.
You spam damage on the different skins that appear, and you win.
You encounter the Giant Alien Spiders event, under various skins.
You win.
You repeat this grind about oh, 100 times.

ANd how does that differ from a playthrough of Rogue, Nethack or any other roguelike game hmm?

Because stuff like "fighting bandits vs fighting pigs", or "90% of rooms vs 100% of room battles" or "iron maiden vs dinner cart" has zero impact on your decision making, it's just a skin, it doesn't matter, it doesn't change the game.[/quote On *your* decision making. DOn't assume everyone plays the game in the same brute force manner you do. NOt everyone walks the straight-line path.

The last part is particularly hilarious because the map generator is laughably constrained. That joke about generating long narrow hallways? It actually does, around 90% of the time. You see the number of rooms is static, that means there's few possible combinations.

And there you show your lack of experience. I can say that the number of rooms in the Ruins varies anywhere betwee,. seven and fifteen. SO obviously you have not spent much time in the game.

This is a dungeon crawler:

Just like the original Rogue and Nethack. Imagine that. :)

That's one of 92 dungeon levels. It's also one of the earliest and tamest.

But keep ignoring all that and tell me about this amazing hardcore Roguelike, but only if you have no concept of the term beyond Google searches, and handicap yourself hard as basic intelligence and common sense is a game breaker, etc.

YAwn. again, you're basically just blowing hot air son. You think you know better than the people who made the game. and honestly I'm starting to see why they would kick someone like you off their forums.

[Celerity, Executor of Impunity]

Dragon Warrior is a 6 hour game, that includes the grinding parts. 1 anyways, the 2nd and 3rd are a bit longer but still short. Disgaea has... 185,000 levels, that you grind a few hundred at a time, and that's for one unit, out of ten. Yeah...

Might and Magic is actually the diluted Wizardry.

"As for the others. How does 239 hours in FTL strike you, or 29 hours in ROgue legacy (considering how long the avg Roguelegacy play session is. thats quite a lot)."

Provided that's real, it proves you think a Roguelite is a Roguelike, which explains the other errors you made, like thinking a game that's neither is more "Roguelike than Rogue" and of course the D1 error. I notice also that even though the other games you named were things like Nethack, actual proper Roguelikes you did not describe your level of experience with them. We all know why that is.

"ANd how does that differ from a playthrough of Rogue, Nethack or any other roguelike game hmm?"

I'm glad you asked! You see, in a real, proper, full Roguelike, different levels are actually different, and different enemies are actually different as well. If you always do the same thing regardless of situation, that's right you YASD. Success in a real proper Roguelike is not merely a matter of spamming damage, but a matter of having a mix of power and versatility so that you can deal with a wide variety of situations and escape from those you cannot as out of depth encounters are a very real thing. I bet you don't know what either of those phrases mean without Google. In a real, proper Roguelike, finding something like an artifact mace early actually influences your decisions. There's nothing that changes the deterministic Derpest formula, not a thing.

But you have nothing but subjective dismissals, the instant I drag any solid statement from you is the instant you are wrong, and you know this. You have nothing, you cannot counter my points, but you will keep posting anyways. You could drop the silliness, and I could educate you on what actual Roguelikes are like at which point you'll correct yourself, but you won't.

[Handjob Cabin]

Hi all :D