Refunds and Family Sharing

[Shizumi]

It would be most appreciated if someone from Valve could give an official response. Thank you.

So I've noticed someone complaining about refunds on The Beginner's Guide forums because the game is 1.5 hours long and has very little replay value, which got me thinking. I've recently played it through Family Sharing - I got it for my S.O. who hasn't played it yet. She could now potentially ask for a refund as she hasn't accessed it on her account, even though I have played the game through Family Sharing.

---

This is concerning for multiple reasons. Let's examine a few hypothetical situations:

1. Person A buys a game on account A. Person A uses account B owned by them to access the game through Family Sharing and plays it for, say, 30 hours in the first two weeks, greatly exceeding the pre-refund play time. Person A then asks for a refund since they still haven't played the game on account A.
Abuse level: high

2. Person A buys a game. Person A has 5 different people added in Family Sharing. Those 5 people then play the game for a total of, say, 50 hours. Person A decides to refund the game...

a) while consciously sharing it for the explicit purpose of not paying for it.
Abuse level: high
(People could actually form small groups and do this relatively efficiently.)

b) while not knowing their friends have played the game.
Abuse level: questionable/moderate (friends)

c) because it doesn't run on their computer.
Abuse level: none
(Notice how person A could be denied a refund here because they couldn't restrict Family Sharing access to that specific game for two weeks, unless they revoked access for everyone every time they buy a game.)

3. Person A buys a game. Person B plays the game through Family Sharing and decides to buy it for themselves. Person A decides to refund the game for whatever reason. If the above situations can be interpreted as abuse by Valve and a refund could be denied, is this situation fully examined before denying it (considering there was no real abuse of the system)?

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One could think of many different cases where one party gets the short end of the stick. Depending on how Valve handles things, the outcomes can range anywhere between your friends inadvertently messing up your ability to get a refund, up to complete abuse of the refund system to play any game free of charge for as long as you want withint the first 2 weeks.

From a player's perspective, Valve's tolerance and understanding would be appreciated. From a developer's standpoint, one could say they're being cheated out of their money. I've seen people actually praise The Beginner's Guide, calling it "one of the most brilliant stories they have experienced", yet still ask for a refund cause why not, they clocked in less than 2h of play time. This is openly discouraging to developers of such short titles, and while I'm not a huge fan of them, I don't think they have less of a right to be paid for their work. Same goes for any other developer, and while it would be comforting to think that Valve will resolve each case with absolute fairness, omnisciently knowing what the users' intentions were, there is currently a huge gray zone where it's highly questionable whether the abuse is intentional, accidental, or if it even exists.

A possible solution would be to automatically restrict Family Sharing access to newly-bought games (with the ability to remove the restriction, but with a warning that a refund may be denied), which could easily be expanded to sharing specific games instead of always sharing the entire library; or setting a 2h play time limit for friends as well (unless the owner waivers the right to a refund). Perhaps there are better solutions, do offer your ideas.

[fluxtorrent]

My understanding is that family sharing counts against the 2 hours as well

[Hextravert]

They know whom you've shared things with.

And everything adds up.

They weren't born yesterday, so you can't abuse them or their system(s) that easily.

Originally posted by Shizumi:

It would be most appreciated if someone from Valve could give an official response. Thank you.

So I've noticed someone complaining about refunds on The Beginner's Guide forums because the game is 1.5 hours long and has very little replay value, which got me thinking. I've recently played it through Family Sharing - I got it for my S.O. who hasn't played it yet. She could now potentially ask for a refund as she hasn't accessed it on her account, even though I have played the game through Family Sharing.

---

This is concerning for multiple reasons. Let's examine a few hypothetical situations:

1. Person A buys a game on account A. Person A uses account B owned by them to access the game through Family Sharing and plays it for, say, 30 hours in the first two weeks, greatly exceeding the pre-refund play time. Person A then asks for a refund since they still haven't played the game on account A.
Abuse level: high

2. Person A buys a game. Person A has 5 different people added in Family Sharing. Those 5 people then play the game for a total of, say, 50 hours. Person A decides to refund the game...

a) while consciously sharing it for the explicit purpose of not paying for it.
Abuse level: high
(People could actually form small groups and do this relatively efficiently.)

[Shizumi]

Originally posted by Hextravert:

They know whom you've shared things with.

And everything adds up.

They weren't born yesterday, so you can't abuse them or their system(s) that easily.

Perhaps you've missed the part about users potentially being denied a refund because the Family Sharing system is broken and you can't restrict specific games.
Please read more than just the title before replying.

[fluxtorrent]

Originally posted by Shizumi:

Originally posted by Hextravert:

They know whom you've shared things with.

And everything adds up.

They weren't born yesterday, so you can't abuse them or their system(s) that easily.

Perhaps you've missed the part about users potentially being denied a refund because the Family Sharing system is broken and you can't restrict specific games.
Please read more than just the title before replying.

You can pick and choose which items that are shared. I suggest you reread the documentation on family sharing because you "can" restrict which games they can access. I have plenty on my account that are not shared because they are not age appropriate.

[Shizumi]

Originally posted by fluxtorrent:

You can pick and choose which items that are shared. I suggest you reread the documentation on family sharing because you "can" restrict which games they can access. I have plenty on my account that are not shared because they are not age appropriate.

To quote the current FAQ:
Q: Can I share specific games, or do I have to share my whole library?
A: Libraries are shared in their entirety.

Do share the information on how to share specific games, cause it isn't covered by the FAQ, which in fact states it's impossible.

[fluxtorrent]

Family View

[OneMore]

It's called....DUN DUN DUNNNNNN

Family View

[Shizumi]

Completely disregarding what every single thread and article say about Family View and Family Sharing and how they're completely separate and that Family View restrictions don't affect Family Sharing, I actually went and tested it out. Set up Family View, restricted all games but one, logged out while still in restricted Family View, logged into an account with Sharing enabled and voila, my entire library is still there. Even ran one title successfully. Logged back into my account, only one title available.

Family View - One title showing.
Family Sharing - Entire library showing and playable.

So, PLEASE, for the love of gaming, please do not spread misinformation, especially when it contradicts everything written on the subject before.

I'm getting very tired of replying to stupid posts like these, and even if the Family View thing was true, that still doesn't address cases 1 & 2a which are intentional abuse by players.

[fluxtorrent]

So because you set it up backwards it's our fault... yeah congrats.

[Shizumi]

Yes, congrats, because it doesn't work like that. Just a random collection of threads I found in about a minute on the issue:
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/618459405721151408/
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/620695877286957807/
https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/558752356766662466/

Also, official FAQs:
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3784-QLBM-5731
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=5149-EOPC-9918

If you're going to say "reread your documentation", then quote one single sentence that mentions Family View and Family Sharing working together, and put a link to it, because I've reread the entire documentation just now, as well as checking community discussions.

And let's say that I did set it up incorrectly (which I can easily check, though I'd rather do it in about 6 hours when both Authenticators are directly available), you could perhaps mention that this requires a special workaround that apparently nobody in the community knows about and nobody in Valve decided to mention in the official FAQs, instead of saying "Family Vew".

Your turn.

[Hextravert]

Both case #1 and #2a aren't possible to begin with.

Because Person A would never get approved for a refund request in those scenarios.

So, PLEASE, for the love of Family View, stop harping on about those.

Originally posted by Shizumi:

Completely disregarding what every single thread and article say about Family View and Family Sharing and how they're completely separate and that Family View restrictions don't affect Family Sharing, I actually went and tested it out. Set up Family View, restricted all games but one, logged out while still in restricted Family View, logged into an account with Sharing enabled and voila, my entire library is still there. Even ran one title successfully. Logged back into my account, only one title available.

Family View - One title showing.
Family Sharing - Entire library showing and playable.

So, PLEASE, for the love of gaming, please do not spread misinformation, especially when it contradicts everything written on the subject before.

I'm getting very tired of replying to stupid posts like these, and even if the Family View thing was true, that still doesn't address cases 1 & 2a which are intentional abuse by players.

[Shizumi]

Originally posted by Hextravert:

Both case #1 and #2a aren't possible to begin with.

Because Person A would never get approved for a refund request in those scenarios.

So, PLEASE, for the love of Family View, stop harping on about those.

Speculation much? Besides, how does Valve differentiate between 2a, 2b, and 2c?

[ KARR™]

In terms of family sharing, if someone is playing your games that is all Steam cares about. If you choose to share them then you run that risk of letting someone run them and potentially lose you refund chances on that item(s).

In terms of family view, no, you can only restrict games on the account family view is set up on. It doesn't restrict OTHER people from playing your games, it restricts what games are available on YOUR account while in family view mode. It's designed for when you have control of your kids accounts and can password protect it when they log in.

[Shizumi]

Thanks for the reply. I don't think this is officially mentioned, and I've seen people mention both being granted and denied refunds when their friends had 2+ hours of playtime.

So, kinda inconsistent, I guess it's up to personal judgement? Also questionable whether it's cumulative (say, everyone plays for 1 hour for 6 hours total), or they only track whether specific accounts have exceeded the limit.

Either way, it seems this is a flaw with Family Sharing, there should be some kind of option to prevent this from happening, other than not using Family Sharing at all.

[Darren]

It's not really a flaw per se. Basically if the refund threshold has been exceeded someone (even if it wasn't you) got the monies worth out of the game. Presumably you don't have a problem with that since the usual case of Family Sharing is to buy games for your family to play so if any member of your family likes it then that's all okay.

If you are using it with friends presumably you are all sharing accounts, so while you might have spent money on GTA V which you hate, but friend B loved, that's okay as sooner or later friend B will buy a game you love and they hate. It'll all even out in the end.