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Less than 100 employees working on steam?! Each of whom makes over a million dollars a year?!?!
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2024/07/valve-runs-its-massive-pc-gaming-ecosystem-with-only-about-350-employees/

This explains soooo much about steam's problems. Valve, you are f'ing rich b/c of Steam, and you don't even have half of your 300-some workforce working on it.

I mean FFS, your average employee makes over a million a year?!
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Näytetään 16-30 / 129 kommentista
D. Flame lähetti viestin:
Tito Shivan lähetti viestin:
No, I didn't.

To name another fitting phrase to OP's point: 9 women can't deliver a baby in one month.
Actually, they can, assuming proper prep work.

One due in January, one due in Feb. One due in March. One due in April. Etc. You end up with one baby per month.

And that reading is more inline with what the OP is talking about.

Nope, that would be 9 women delivering 9 babies over 9 months. Not a single baby being born in one month because 9 women carried it.

Its a basic concept taught in any business school called Brook's law. There comes a point where adding more employee's SLOWS a project down, as you run into conflicts. For instance you can't have multiple people working on the same code at once.

For the kitchen analogy if a steak takes 8 minutes to cook it won't be done in 1 minute if you have 8 people cooking it
OK, old news, they have a few more employees.

The reason I am shocked is it is a very wealthy company, and they have let bugs go for years. I have seen a lot of stuff that needed employee attention.. humongous games being broken in the workshop for years because Steam's employees wouldn't fix known workshop bugs.. .. the basic browser memory leaks.. or an unnecessary total redesign of the GUI... and it always looks like they're shortstaffed and also focusing on stuff that doesn't need to be fixed IMO. I used to get constant updates for BS social features I've never ever used.

Meanwhile, every single game I buy on here is paying a lot to Steam... and these days, most indy game makers will fail, right? But Steam will get their cut!

It's like the focus is on maximizing profit for Steam and its CEO. That's what's irritating about it.

They make vastly more money than big f'ing game companies, and the big game companies have to give Steam a cut, along with the tiniest game companies. A big f'ing cut. To a very wealthy company that doesn't seem to actually fix stuff rapidly.

That's my issue. Why am I giving money to steam?
Like why can't steam only take half the cut, thereby helping indy developers stay afloat? Or a f'ing sliding percentage?! Or hire twice as many people for steam or something. The mismatch between the amount of money the games I play make and what steam makes and provides is ridiculous.

I just got an email for an amazing game.. BEGGING for a little bit of money just to finish the game on kickstarter. This outfit has multiple games on steam that I own. They may have failed and just shelved it.

It is well-established now that indy developers have an enormously hard time making traction on steam because it is so swamped. But you have to release on steam and give steam this giant cut that could break your company because of the margins. What else are you going to do?

So who is this serving? Is it really serving the indy game community anymore? It sure felt like it was a decade or 2 ago. Reading this article, it makes me feel like they're serving themselves, first and foremost.

And FWIW, it was not a slow news day, it just happened to be a day I read Ars Technica. :)
D. Flame lähetti viestin:
Tito Shivan lähetti viestin:
No, I didn't.

To name another fitting phrase to OP's point: 9 women can't deliver a baby in one month.
Actually, they can, assuming proper prep work.

One due in January, one due in Feb. One due in March. One due in April. Etc. You end up with one baby per month.

And that reading is more inline with what the OP is talking about.
When you accidently confirm the point you're trying to argue against...
starship lähetti viestin:
Why am I giving money to steam?
To get the games you like. Anything beyond that is just a fantasy relationship people are creating.

starship lähetti viestin:
Like why can't steam only take half the cut, thereby helping indy developers stay afloat? Or a f'ing sliding percentage?! Or hire twice as many people for steam or something. The mismatch between the amount of money the games I play make and what steam makes and provides is ridiculous.
They have a sliding percentage. You should read up on things.

But it's not Valves responsibility to keep other devs stay afloat. Just because company A makes good money doesn't make them a charity for other companies.

starship lähetti viestin:
It is well-established now that indy developers have an enormously hard time making traction on steam because it is so swamped.
Is it? Or is that just a narrative devs paint when they themselves seem to think that "releasing on Steam is enough, eh" and don't do further marketing? Of course it's a narrative they'd push, because it doesn't matter if they can or cannot gain traction, everybody wants to pay less.

starship lähetti viestin:
Is it really serving the indy game community anymore? It sure felt like it was a decade or 2 ago. Reading this article, it makes me feel like they're serving themselves, first and foremost.
Valve has always served themselves, as does every company. They all have their own interests in mind.
"Serving the indy game community" is exactly the type of example what I meant about the "fantasy relationship" people are creating.
GobboKirk lähetti viestin:
D. Flame lähetti viestin:
Actually, they can, assuming proper prep work.

One due in January, one due in Feb. One due in March. One due in April. Etc. You end up with one baby per month.

And that reading is more inline with what the OP is talking about.
When you accidently confirm the point you're trying to argue against...
"I don't need to wait 5 years to release a game! I can just hire someone whose game releases next month!"
Viimeisin muokkaaja on Tito Shivan; 18.7.2024 klo 5.05
Steam is riddled with shovelware and smut.
It’s not a good look.
Yeah tyhat makes sense. Subcontracting is a thing after all. So are SBU's
m662 18.7.2024 klo 6.17 
You do not throw more people at a problem in a hi-tech setting you throw tech at it.
To compare most data-centers run with 50 to 150 people at maximum while serving thousands of companies simultaneously. And that is all shifts and professions combined. From the cleaning crew to the daily operation staff and Computer Emergency Response Team (CERT)

Why would Valve need a large team for Steam services? It is really not a complex business setting. It is large in user scale no denying about that but standardized as much as possible as in infrastructure.

They do not develop most things themselves either. I mean Steam client is build on Chromium Embedded Framework (CEF) by Google. Sure they created the styling and some libraries but the underlying core is pre-made. And that is a wise decision from a business view.

You are going to see only further reductions in employee size unless they decide to open another kind of branch or create more games. And that reduction will happen globally as efficiency increases.

Also why people in desk jobs are more and more getting made ready for four or even three days work weeks because we have become so efficient compared to the last couple of decades we are running out of tasks. Bare in mind I am talking desk jobs we got a huge job vacancy in manual labor.
Viimeisin muokkaaja on m662; 18.7.2024 klo 6.21
Tito Shivan lähetti viestin:
GobboKirk lähetti viestin:
When you accidently confirm the point you're trying to argue against...
"I don't need to wait 5 years to release a game! I can just hire someone whose game releases next month!"
Companies do this all the time. Steam does 30% of that everyday.
D. Flame lähetti viestin:
Companies do this all the time. Steam does 30% of that everyday.

Thirty-percent of the hiring of game developers?
starship lähetti viestin:
OK, old news, they have a few more employees.

The reason I am shocked is it is a very wealthy company
The issue with a lot of peoples arguments is "wealthy" or "rich"; if people think just throwing money at the wall & hopes stuff goes better they've probably never operated a business or seen corporate income vs expenses. There's a few threads where I calculated someones "just throw money at it" and it ended up being an absurd cost to just hire more people to do the same task.

People think "Valves a billion dollar company", ok, how much of their annual income is spent on operations including paying all those employees, utilities, taxes, building costs, maintenance, servers etc? How much is actually left after everything is paid? Because just spending money recklessly is how you kill a business.

starship lähetti viestin:
, and they have let bugs go for years. I have seen a lot of stuff that needed employee attention.. humongous games being broken in the workshop for years because Steam's employees wouldn't fix known workshop bugs
They're not responsible for other peoples games, and Developers can easily tell people how to manually install content since other sites exist for uploading&downloading mods. Devs can make their own workshop as well and some do.

Not everything is the priority that some customers demand, especially when almost no one is affected by something.

starship lähetti viestin:
.. .. the basic browser memory leaks.. or an unnecessary total redesign of the GUI... and it always looks like they're shortstaffed and also focusing on stuff that doesn't need to be fixed IMO. I used to get constant updates for BS social features I've never ever used.
But that stuff you've never used includes fixing memory leaks from a specific version. Most of that is googles fault anyway since they made chromium.

starship lähetti viestin:
Meanwhile, every single game I buy on here is paying a lot to Steam... and these days, most indy game makers will fail, right? But Steam will get their cut!
Customers throwing money around recklessly without doing any research or having patience can result in poor outcomes. We also had the world pandemic years ago where a lot of indie Devs were decimated and had to stop temporarily or permanently their projects to pay the bills due to increased hardship & decisions of politicians/cities. Things can happen at any time, you're free to wait until a product is in a condition you like before purchasing. Have some patience, do some research don't blind buy.

starship lähetti viestin:
It's like the focus is on maximizing profit for Steam and its CEO. That's what's irritating about it.
They've made the Steam Deck so clearly profit for the business itself is the focus, so lesser important things may take low priority, but since you said you saw a constant flow of bug fixes there's not much of an issue there.

starship lähetti viestin:
They make vastly more money than big f'ing game companies, and the big game companies have to give Steam a cut, along with the tiniest game companies. A big f'ing cut. To a very wealthy company that doesn't seem to actually fix stuff rapidly.
Are you sure they actually make more than some, after all the bills are paid?


starship lähetti viestin:
That's my issue. Why am I giving money to steam?
12+ Yrs, 70+ games, clearly you had reasons the entire time. Likely because of good deals and ease-of-use. Why is there only suddenly now a problem? bandwagoning the "rich why not throw money at it"?
Aachen lähetti viestin:
D. Flame lähetti viestin:
Companies do this all the time. Steam does 30% of that everyday.

Thirty-percent of the hiring of game developers?
30% of the buying of them, or rather 30% of the taking of their profits.
GGcake 18.7.2024 klo 7.22 
they have employees?
D. Flame lähetti viestin:
Tito Shivan lähetti viestin:
No, I didn't.

To name another fitting phrase to OP's point: 9 women can't deliver a baby in one month.
Actually, they can, assuming proper prep work.

One due in January, one due in Feb. One due in March. One due in April. Etc. You end up with one baby per month.

And that reading is more inline with what the OP is talking about.


I think D.Flame gets where I'm going with this. :)

Like I was playing Project Zomboid for quite a while, which at times is pretty popular. I don't know if the issue has been resolved, but for YEARS, there was a known problem with the workshop of Project Zomboid that ONLY STEAM COULD FIX and they wouldn't fix it.

It probably would have been a trivial fix. It was not a store-wide problem, it was something really stupid that an admin needed to take care of, and this team with dozens of devs on it, PZ, had no power to fix it. They had to wait for a steam admin to deign to answer the ticket.

So everyone who played that game, and nearly everyone who plays it uses the workshop, or at least half or so.. had to spend a lot of time trying to manually do stuff that steam should do automatically. Like uninstall and install mods constantly b/c steam would not properly update. Steam would do it automatically if it weren't broken for, again, years.

This constant stream of bug fixes that some poster in here thought proved the opposite of my point.. it doesn't, not when I saw the only bugs I ever noticed not get fixed.. and most of the bug fixes reported were for social BS that is of no use to me.

Again, they put a ♥♥♥♥ ton of effort into making a bloated GUI. A GUI that takes up more resources, hides useful information.. and is far more focused on narcissistic ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

I remember when a friend had a hard time using Steam in linux for f'ing years.. b/c every time they'd release it, it would be broken.

I mean.. did they have enough developers on that? NO. But apparently, everyone who was working on it was making a f' ton of money. Is that a good approach? It sure is for the lucky hundred employees.


And it is true, they could be hiring out subcontractors for stuff. But still.. nearly a million bucks, maybe just half a million bucks, for each employee in the Steam department every year? When I personally saw bugs go unfixed for years?

Who doesn't get the problem with that?

And who said devs get a sliding cut? The info I'm finding is that at best, you might only give Steam 20% once you've made over f'ing 50 million bucks.

That is not how a sliding scale works!!!!!!! It's supposed to work in the reverse direction.

Atm, I can't figure out how this works with Steam Direct.



I pay 30% as a developer to a company in Europe... who has a store.. AND develops the ♥♥♥♥ out of the SDK we use. And they will now and then help devs advertise. It's a much smaller operation, but it's still too much, and they actually do a f' ton of work for that 30%. (not game related). Everything was dev'd from scratch, not built off of some other companies work, like Steam using chromium. And most of their revenue actually comes from the main product that they sell. They don't make their entire profit off of other devs' work. We flesh out their product.


On the "too many cooks/chiefs" argument front:

If your goal is to feed millions, you hire MORE THAN ONE CHEF. This argument that too many cooks spoils the soup.. anyone making that argument must not have set foot in a commercial kitchen.

If I had 100 cooks feeding millions, and they had really serious problems getting food to customers on time, I'd hire more cooks! Not.. make sure each cook was making a million bucks so they worked as hard as they could. :)
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