Early Access - Big Publishers - allocation of risk?

[....]

I am wondering - usually EA is a tool for smaller DEVs used to get rid of some of the financial risks and testing out new concepts etc. - which is probably the main reason for EA enabling new game ideas by smaller DEVs.

These days we suddenly have big publishers using EA - even pricing the EA games pretty much at a full release price of many AAA games.

I know there is no official statement that the game is dropped and they say they will continue but im somewhat sceptical about that - as scaptical as i was about this game from the start. (mainly talking about Kerbal Space Program 2)


I understand when i project fails for reasons that are dictated by the size of the studio, financial problems etc. but in this case - there is a huge publisher in the background - and should the game not continue to me it would seem pretty weird and unfair to offload a lot of the financial risk to the consumers and simply give the Publisher the ability to stop the project without refunds.

Also i do get the idea of EA - but in reality many of the EA games simply arent sold as what steam describes but have lots of pormises of a future product, often also prices that dont indicate EA at all - so obviously the consumer expectation is different because of valid reasons.


I seriously wonder what will happen - i cant think of any similar case where a big publisher use EA and we got into a situation like this. I wonder if steam will react. I also doubt that EA works as steam wants it to in most countries with consumer-right-protection - especially the way they are done. I find it for example hard to argue that people just bought an alpha when there is roadmaps, marketing and a price that is almost a full release price etc.

[....]

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

Messaggio originale di ....:

Thats not how consumer rights work in 99% of countries. Its also not how contracts in general work.

Actually, they do. The sales agreement is for an unfinished game and since the games are advertised as unfinished games that might stay unfinished, it's within the consumer rights as well.

Such buzzwords aren't silver bullets, you know.

You do realize that marketing to some extent is actually binding and contracts are interpreted at an individual basis? Not to mentation that there are lots of safeguards when consumers are involved.

Its somewhat interresting how many people try to defend rather problematic practices without actually knowing much about contracts.

If parts of your contracts and especially marketing contradict with your contract terms etc. with consumers chances are you will get a problem. The same applys to general stuff - reasonable expectation etc. - if you sell something at full price and argue you sold an alpha as is you proably also have problems.

[Crazy Tiger]

Messaggio originale di ....:

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

Actually, they do. The sales agreement is for an unfinished game and since the games are advertised as unfinished games that might stay unfinished, it's within the consumer rights as well.

Such buzzwords aren't silver bullets, you know.

You do realize that marketing to some extent is actually binding and contracts are interpreted at an individual basis? Not to mentation that there are lots of safeguards when consumers are involved.

No Man's Sky and Cyberpunk showed that "marketing", and following that "false advertising", have very different meanings in legal terms than what users think.

I'm fully aware of it all, which is why I know how it works.

People seem to forget that all these "safeguards" aren't just for consumers, also for corporations. "Consumer rights" isn't a magical stick that means "I'll get my way".

It's somewhat interesting that you're confusing "explaining" with "defending". Though typical, it's to be expected on these forums.

[....]

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

Messaggio originale di ....:

You do realize that marketing to some extent is actually binding and contracts are interpreted at an individual basis? Not to mentation that there are lots of safeguards when consumers are involved.

No Man's Sky and Cyberpunk showed that "marketing", and following that "false advertising", have very different meanings in legal terms than what users think.

I'm fully aware of it all, which is why I know how it works.

People seem to forget that all these "safeguards" aren't just for consumers, also for corporations. "Consumer rights" isn't a magical stick that means "I'll get my way".

But for corporations its way less strict - yes you dont get everything as a consumer - but reasonable expectations and marketing can actually lead to problems for a company.

Not sure how its elsewhere but for example:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-contracts/index_en.htm

Between business its way less since the argument is that companies are making contracts from a similar level of power and companies also have way more knowledge when it comes to contracts so there is way less reason to save them from bad contracts.

[Crazy Tiger]

Messaggio originale di ....:

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

No Man's Sky and Cyberpunk showed that "marketing", and following that "false advertising", have very different meanings in legal terms than what users think.

I'm fully aware of it all, which is why I know how it works.

People seem to forget that all these "safeguards" aren't just for consumers, also for corporations. "Consumer rights" isn't a magical stick that means "I'll get my way".

But for corporations its way less strict - yes you dont get everything as a consumer - but reasonable expectations and marketing can actually lead to problems for a company.

Not sure how its elsewhere but for example:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-contracts/index_en.htm

Early Access is within EU directives.

[....]

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

Messaggio originale di ....:

But for corporations its way less strict - yes you dont get everything as a consumer - but reasonable expectations and marketing can actually lead to problems for a company.

Not sure how its elsewhere but for example:
https://europa.eu/youreurope/business/dealing-with-customers/consumer-contracts-guarantees/consumer-contracts/index_en.htm

Early Access is within EU directives.

Yes - if its made in a specific way:
- be open about it
- dont promise or make the impression of delivering a finished games/features etc.
- have a price that reflects the state of the game etc.
- watch out for your marketing
- dont just stop the project because you want to do something else
etc.

The more you differ from those points the less likely you will be able to argue with EA.

[....]

Its interresting how many people will try to defend the party that is actually not working in their favour and has completely different interrests:

Lets make an extreme example - would you still argue like this if for example:
Game gets released in EA - big Publisher - Rodmap, lots of marketing about the finished game and how great it will be, price is 80 USD but they copy paste the EA disclaimer, after a lot of sales they decide to stop development a few weeks later because they want to cut costs to maximize profits since they dont expect much more sales after the big EA sales.

So that for example would be okay to you and according to you okay by law?

[Zefar]

Messaggio originale di ....:

For example:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/954850/Kerbal_Space_Program_2/

There isnt even a hint on the page that the game is pretty much on standby for now and the price is still almost at finished AAA game levels.

I seriously do hope that they will continue the game - even if its only about the reputation damage they would suffer by not doing it. But the situation in general is weird.

I suppose the Overwhelming negative review score on recent reviews and then Mostly Negative on all reviews isn't a hint that something is wrong?

Seeing that alone should ring some warning bells that should make you investigate more into the matter.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Messaggio originale di ....:

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

Actually, they do. The sales agreement is for an unfinished game and since the games are advertised as unfinished games that might stay unfinished, it's within the consumer rights as well.

Such buzzwords aren't silver bullets, you know.

You do realize that marketing to some extent is actually binding and contracts are interpreted at an individual basis? Not to mentation that there are lots of safeguards when consumers are involved.

Its somewhat interresting how many people try to defend rather problematic practices without actually knowing much about contracts.

If parts of your contracts and especially marketing contradict with your contract terms etc. with consumers chances are you will get a problem. The same applys to general stuff - reasonable expectation etc. - if you sell something at full price and argue you sold an alpha as is you proably also have problems.

Learn what an as-is sale is ffs. Games, houses and cars are sold this way.

[pckirk]

Did we really need another off topic thread started about Early Access. This is turning into a weekly / daily event. No body owes you anything. Early Access is not forced upon you, you have a choice to buy it as is, or not to buy it. If you do, you get a licence to a unfinished product that might or might not ever change, be updated or finished. as long as the publisher paid for selling the game on steam, and is not breaking any laws, or steam rules, steam has no say in the matter. Unfinished games, or abandoned games.is what it is. Nothing you are anyone can do about it. Don't want the risk, don't buy a game that is in Early Access. No one forced you too.

Move on, and please next time start this crap off-topic thread, in the Off-Topic Sub-Forum where it belongs.

[....]

Messaggio originale di AmsterdamHeavy:

Messaggio originale di ....:

You do realize that marketing to some extent is actually binding and contracts are interpreted at an individual basis? Not to mentation that there are lots of safeguards when consumers are involved.

Its somewhat interresting how many people try to defend rather problematic practices without actually knowing much about contracts.

If parts of your contracts and especially marketing contradict with your contract terms etc. with consumers chances are you will get a problem. The same applys to general stuff - reasonable expectation etc. - if you sell something at full price and argue you sold an alpha as is you proably also have problems.

Learn what an as-is sale is ffs. Games, houses and cars are sold this way.

I dont think you understand that just because you name something XY doesnt mean its actually that. Otherwise there wouldnt be so many contract lawyers and court cases about contracts.

[AmsterdamHeavy]

Messaggio originale di ....:

Messaggio originale di AmsterdamHeavy:

Learn what an as-is sale is ffs. Games, houses and cars are sold this way.

I dont think you understand that just because you name something XY doesnt mean its actually that. Otherwise there wouldnt be so many contract lawyers and court cases about contracts.

I think you still do not understand what an as-is sale is.

[Doctor Zalgo]

Messaggio originale di ....:

Its interresting how many people will try to defend the party that is actually not working in their favour and has completely different interrests:

Lets make an extreme example - would you still argue like this if for example:
Game gets released in EA - big Publisher - Rodmap, lots of marketing about the finished game and how great it will be, price is 80 USD but they copy paste the EA disclaimer, after a lot of sales they decide to stop development a few weeks later because they want to cut costs to maximize profits since they dont expect much more sales after the big EA sales.

So that for example would be okay to you and according to you okay by law?

You keep conflating legally fine with morally fine and switching backwards and forwards between the two depending on what you're responding to.

You're also swapping in another legal issue here entirely, straight up lying about the product that you're selling has nothing to do with early access as a going concern.

Do you want to actually talk about the legality of early access or do you just want to win an internet argument?

[Crazy Tiger]

Messaggio originale di ....:

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

Early Access is within EU directives.

Yes - if its made in a specific way:
- be open about it
- dont promise or make the impression of delivering a finished games/features etc.
- have a price that reflects the state of the game etc.
- watch out for your marketing
- dont just stop the project because you want to do something else
etc.

The more you differ from those points the less likely you will be able to argue with EA.

Yes. Early Access is within EU directives, as I said.

[Start_Running]

Messaggio originale di ....:

I am wondering - usually EA is a tool for smaller DEVs used to get rid of some of the financial risks and testing out new concepts etc. - which is probably the main reason for EA enabling new game ideas by smaller DEVs.

And that notion is incorrect.

Messaggio originale di ....:

These days we suddenly have big publishers using EA - even pricing the EA games pretty much at a full release price of many AAA games.

Yeah? because that's what the developer deems the game to be worth. Same as any other game.

Messaggio originale di ....:

I know there is no official statement that the game is dropped and they say they will continue but im somewhat sceptical about that - as scaptical as i was about this game from the start. (mainly talking about Kerbal Space Program 2)

Oy vey...

Messaggio originale di ....:

I understand when i project fails for reasons that are dictated by the size of the studio, financial problems etc. but in this case - there is a huge publisher in the background - and should the game not continue to me it would seem pretty weird and unfair to offload a lot of the financial risk to the consumers and simply give the Publisher the ability to stop the project without refunds.

What you understand does not relate to reality. No refunds are needed because even if the game ganes dropped and removed from the steam store. The dev/pubs have fulfilled their obligations to their early access customers. The product that was purchased, was delivered as specified.

Messaggio originale di ....:

Also i do get the idea of EA - but in reality many of the EA games simply arent sold as what steam describes but have lots of pormises of a future product, often also prices that dont indicate EA at all - so obviously the consumer expectation is different because of valid reasons.

Promises and projections are not legally binding in this case. You're buying 'as-is' not, 'as-will-be'.

Messaggio originale di ....:

I seriously wonder what will happen - i cant think of any similar case where a big publisher use EA and we got into a situation like this.

Same thing that hgappens when a small publisher folds while a game is in EA. the opurchases made within the refund window will have the option for refund. everyone else will retain the unfinished game in their library, The size of the publisher is not a factor here.

I suggest reading the contents of that big blue box on every early access page properly .

[BJWyler]

Messaggio originale di AmsterdamHeavy:

I dont support large publishers that try to use EA. IMO, it isnt for them and they are taking advantage of people.

I do enjoy EAGs however.

I agree with that completely.