Nathan 2024 年 7 月 31 日 上午 10:33
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EU citizen's initiative to stop killing games
Ownership can still be saved outside the US, we just have to get signatures
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkMe9MxxZiI

https://www.stopkillinggames.com/eci
https://citizens-initiative.europa.eu/initiatives/details/2024/000007_en#

"Giant FAQ on The European Initiative to Stop Destroying Games!" (41min)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEVBiN5SKuA
最後修改者:Nathan; 2024 年 8 月 10 日 上午 11:31
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目前顯示第 1,231-1,245 則留言,共 1,480
Yujah 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 5:37 
Note; sorry for the edits; now done....

引用自 RiO
Article 19 makes it illegal for traders or suppliers to modify digital content beyond what is strictly required to maintain conformance to contract - i.e. bug fixes, patches for security issues, etc. -unless they adhere to certain provisions of law. Those being [...]
None too sure I and more importantly a(ny) judge would agree with you there.

First off and as also said to Tito Shivan I believe the entire third-party rights thing to be a red herring: back when I bought the software "Alan Wake" I obtained the right to use any as part of said software supplied music (as part of said software, i.e., listening to it in game) and nothing has terminated that right. Admittedly, "said software" would generally be taken to refer to the specific version of it as bought, but forced updates then mean implicit continuation of my rights as to such as long as it is still included, I'd argue.

The issue is with new customers, or put conversely, the third-party rights issue concerns only issues that existed as such already at the time of purchase. Is not an argument for the developer/trader to no more be able to supply me with it should they want to, nor an argument for how it makes for non-compliance when removed.

The mentioned Article 19 moreover makes explicit as its first sentence that it applies to situations,
Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time [...]
I.e., that it is not intended for one-time purchases such as my purchase of Alan Wake back when (in theory) was.

Now of course, these forced updates treating my "one-time purchase" as precisely not that could certainly be argued to have it applicable none the less but then we're in any case still confronted with 19-2 that says, emphasis mine,
The consumer shall be entitled to terminate the contract if the modification negatively impacts the consumer's access to or use of the digital content or digital service, unless such negative impact is only minor.
That is the reason why I above argued that the case of GTA4's Glukoza's Schweine was one of the best opportunities to argue that it was part of the game as such, i.e., to have its removal not be only minor. But I do in fact feel it mostly given that a judge would consider it minor -- and that then goes a few times over for Space Oddity in Alan Wake which if I'm not mistaken played only over the ending credits.

Finally, and by the way...

Point (75) of the preamble to the 2019/770 containing the above Article 19 says something interesting. Again emphasis mine,
[...] The rules provided for in this Directive concerning such updates, upgrades or similar modifications should however not concern situations where the parties conclude a new contract for the supply of the digital content or digital service, for instance as a consequence of distributing a new version of the digital content or digital service.
Just now checked that starting Alan Wake after the update that removed Space Oddity did not e.g. even present me with a EULA so although I'd argue that a new build on Steam constitutes a new version in the context, a new contract is here definitely not concluded.

But generally when e.g. a EULA would be presented (as it often is) that would still be to say that this all ties in fully-completely as to what's needed for a contract to be concluded in the first place. Under EU-law not just presenting a EULA generally but the above makes it sound at least potentially different for updates.
最後修改者:Yujah; 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 6:10
RiO 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 7:30 
引用自 Yujah
The mentioned Article 19 moreover makes explicit as its first sentence that it applies to situations,
Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time [...]
I.e., that it is not intended for one-time purchases such as my purchase of Alan Wake back when (in theory) was.

Don't confuse purchase with supply.

E.g. if you purchased Alan Wake (2012) on Steam, it remains in continuous supply to this date. Steam allows you to install the most recent version of the title as long as it is 'in your library' - i.e. your account has a grant of access to it.

Article 19 only does not apply to situations where you pay once and download once, after which said download is the only means by which you can install and regain access to the content. Basically the pure-digital equivalent of a physical install medium, where it's your own responsibility to keep a back up of the install data.

Logically, article 19 can't apply in that case, because there's no way for a trader or publisher to modify an offline installer you've downloaded beforehand. (Provided that it's actually fully 100% offline, that is.)

引用自 Yujah
Point (75) of the preamble to the 2019/770 containing the above Article 19 says something interesting. Again emphasis mine,
[...] The rules provided for in this Directive concerning such updates, upgrades or similar modifications should however not concern situations where the parties conclude a new contract for the supply of the digital content or digital service, for instance as a consequence of distributing a new version of the digital content or digital service.
Just now checked that starting Alan Wake after the update that removed Space Oddity did not e.g. even present me with a EULA so although I'd argue that a new build on Steam constitutes a new version in the context, a new contract is here definitely not concluded.

But generally when e.g. a EULA would be presented (as it often is) that would still be to say that this all ties in fully-completely as to what's needed for a contract to be concluded in the first place. Under EU-law not just presenting a EULA generally but the above makes it sound at least potentially different for updates.

Revisions of EULAs aren't new contracts.
They are unilateral changes applied to an existing contract. Which comes with its own legal ifs-and-buts and generally is largely limited by the 1993/13 directive. Or rather: should be, were it competently enforced ...


You're going to find this a lot:
The problem isn't the leglislation. The legislation is there and is 100% capable.
The problem is the enforcement.

The enforcement is lax. In no small part, because counter to some other legislation passed down from the EU, the EU counts on the consumer rights legislation to be enforced by individual member states and many member states simply don't give a toss and chronically under-fund their appointed authorities meant to enforce the legislation. They're treated as a write-off and a cost-sink that only wastes public money which could go to more important thing like education, healthcare, or welfare. And in cases where corruption thrives unchecked, some government officials would rather have disappear into private pockets.
最後修改者:RiO; 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 7:39
Yujah 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 7:50 
引用自 RiO
Article 19 only does not apply to situations where you pay once and download once, after which said download is the only means by which you can install and regain access to the content.
It really doesn't say that. It explicitly says,
Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time [...]
Provides. The contract I entered into when I bought Alan Wake does not provide any such thing; as a contract it is a one-time contract, with any updates possible to be argued even as mere bonus service from the supplier. As said, forced updates maybe not so much, but I do not believe that's as clear-cut as you there sketch it to be.

And in any case -- the more important part is of course that even if deemed applicable as such, the "not minor" clause I would (very much) believe to not be to e.g. here that Alan Wake / Space Oddity case, meaning this Directive is specifically here not relevant.

Will leave it at that though. I do not enjoy reading legalese :)
RiO 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 8:33 
引用自 Yujah
引用自 RiO
Article 19 only does not apply to situations where you pay once and download once, after which said download is the only means by which you can install and regain access to the content.
It really doesn't say that. It explicitly says,
Where the contract provides that the digital content or digital service is to be supplied or made accessible to the consumer over a period of time [...]
Provides. The contract I entered into when I bought Alan Wake does not provide any such thing; as a contract it is a one-time contract, with any updates possible to be argued even as mere bonus service from the supplier. As said, forced updates maybe not so much, but I do not believe that's as clear-cut as you there sketch it to be.

And in any case -- the more important part is of course that even if deemed applicable as such, the "not minor" clause I would (very much) believe to not be to e.g. here that Alan Wake / Space Oddity case, meaning this Directive is specifically here not relevant.

Will leave it at that though. I do not enjoy reading legalese :)

( If you've bought it on Steam, it actually does. Because then the contract would provide that you are granted access to the Content, as per the Steam SSA's defined term, you purchased through your account, for as long as you hold your account with Steam... )

引用自 Yujah
Will leave it at that though. I do not enjoy reading legalese :)
I can understand that though. :lunar2019grinningpig:
最後修改者:RiO; 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 8:34
Yujah 2024 年 9 月 14 日 上午 8:43 
引用自 RiO
( If you've bought it on Steam, it actually does. Because then the contract would provide that you are granted access to the Content, as per the Steam SSA's defined term, you purchased through your account, for as long as you hold your account with Steam... )
Admittedly -- that might be a point. Fair enough. Still best of luck with "not minor" thing :)
Ben Lubar 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 1:08 
引用自 Channel_18
That's for them to figure out, as I've said mmos and server dependent games are tricky. They could however allow players to host it.

I'm confident that they're fully capable of finding ways to preserve these games

They're capable of finding legal loopholes and hiring psychologists to exploit players.

At this point, there are several people in this thread maliciously "misunderstanding" what I am posting.

If the rights holders say that the game has to stop, the game has to stop. If those rights holders happen to own a song or a real world object that is licensed to appear in the game for some finite amount of time, those things might be possible to remove from the game in order to preserve the game. In cases where that thing is integral to the game's existence, like the rights to use a franchise or every "character" in a game like The Crew, removing the no-longer-legal-to-distribute content would essentially be removing the whole game.

Ubisoft isn't going to run servers for a racing game where you can no longer race anything. They're also not going to provide a free content update to a few dozen players of a decade-old MMO that replaces every car in the game with some new custom model. And if I know one thing about MMOs, it's that doing that would have caused even more anger than shutting down the game entirely did. People don't like it when there are even small cosmetic changes made to their MMO gear.

In my specific case, AKA the case you replied to with the words above, all three of the games I mentioned are only allowed to exist and be distributed due to another company's good graces. We're small teams of modders (and in one of the three cases, it's just me working on it and nobody else). I run a lot of the infrastructure out of my parents' basement. That's not a joke. We don't have the funding to retain a lawyer, let alone hire multiple psychologists to "exploit" players.

I am telling you that in order to "preserve" a game that cannot legally be distributed, a game developer would have to break the law. You are telling me to find a creative way around the law. That is a crime known as "fraud". Laws aren't interpreted by unthinking computers. The judge would know exactly what I tried to do if that was the case. So no, I will not be breaking the law, even though you are "confident" that I can.
Yujah 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 3:21 
引用自 Ben Lubar
If the rights holders say that the game has to stop, the game has to stop.
Now what on earth could it be that has you this consistently and dramatically fail to understand the entire eventual point of the initiative even after it has been explicitly explained to you by now dozens of times by several people?

Once (but only once) more: said entire eventual point of the iniative as well as the situation the person you replied to references is one where games are designed from the start to not HAVE any such issues even potentially. Yes, that needs a change to current industry practices. Good; that is the point.

You do the same thing every single time: drum up something far-fetched to claim to be offended about ("You are telling me to find a creative way around the law.") and then declare moral victory. Please note that you're not in fact convincing anyone.
mldb88 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 7:21 
引用自 Yujah
引用自 Ben Lubar
If the rights holders say that the game has to stop, the game has to stop.
Now what on earth could it be that has you this consistently and dramatically fail to understand the entire eventual point of the initiative even after it has been explicitly explained to you by now dozens of times by several people?

Once (but only once) more: said entire eventual point of the iniative as well as the situation the person you replied to references is one where games are designed from the start to not HAVE any such issues even potentially. Yes, that needs a change to current industry practices. Good; that is the point.

You do the same thing every single time: drum up something far-fetched to claim to be offended about ("You are telling me to find a creative way around the law.") and then declare moral victory. Please note that you're not in fact convincing anyone.

So in other words basically killing the gaming industry. Spoken from someone who truly has no clue how licensing works or how integral it is to The game development process.
Schorsch Wadschinken 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 7:48 
There's the next one. Brilliant.
Yujah 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:14 
引用自 mldb88
Spoken from someone who truly has no clue how licensing works
And read by someone without as much as the concept that it could work differently.
Crazy Tiger 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:20 
The projecting of Yujah is quite funny. They do the same thing everytime: spout random unaffiliated nonsense because they're offended by people having different opinions.

Heaven forbid people don't jump the "trending" bandwagons. :lunar2019shockedpig:
Schorsch Wadschinken 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:20 
They should have this concept if they didn't just keep ignoring people and then repeat themselves.

引用自 ThorN
引用自 mldb88

And in that case guess what developers are going to stop doing? If you guessed making these types of games at all because the mandated that is being put on them is extremely cost or resource prohibitive just to satisfy a small minority of players who may still be playing the game 20 years in the future, you’d be correct.

What I also love is these people, who think they can see the future.

First off, let's say I grant you that this is going to happen. To which I say: Not my problem. Upholding consumer rights is priority number one.

This argument is fallacious in nature, by that logic I could say if developers release nothing but broken and buggy games then we get way more games!!!!111!! So let's have nothing but broken games, yay!

Who cares? I want functioning games. And I don't want my games I paid for yoinked from me. Not doing those things saves the developers money, but neither is an acceptable situation for consumers.



But also, I don't believe this is going to happen. Firstly, because the cost is not actually that great and all games in the past used to offer private servers or LAN for multiplayer, and secondly, because there are numerous examples of games that already do this. Remember how you mentioned Overwatch and League of Legends? Because Team Fortress 2 and DOTA 2 already offer private servers and LAN mode. What reason could there be the other games don't do it aside from greed?
Schorsch Wadschinken 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:21 
引用自 Crazy Tiger
The projecting of Yujah is quite funny. They do the same thing everytime: spout random unaffiliated nonsense because they're offended by people having different opinions.

Heaven forbid people don't jump the "trending" bandwagons. :lunar2019shockedpig:

What is this guy even saying?
Yujah 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:28 
引用自 ThorN
What is this guy even saying?
They're only trying to board a flamewar (again). Never mind them.
Ben Lubar 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:34 
引用自 mldb88
引用自 Yujah
Now what on earth could it be that has you this consistently and dramatically fail to understand the entire eventual point of the initiative even after it has been explicitly explained to you by now dozens of times by several people?

Once (but only once) more: said entire eventual point of the iniative as well as the situation the person you replied to references is one where games are designed from the start to not HAVE any such issues even potentially. Yes, that needs a change to current industry practices. Good; that is the point.

You do the same thing every single time: drum up something far-fetched to claim to be offended about ("You are telling me to find a creative way around the law.") and then declare moral victory. Please note that you're not in fact convincing anyone.

So in other words basically killing the gaming industry. Spoken from someone who truly has no clue how licensing works or how integral it is to The game development process.

What they're asking for (which is completely different from what the campaign is asking for) is to essentially ban limited licensing of any kind in video games. That in order for a game to be distributed in Europe, they want all the rights to belong to the developers of the game directly and permanently.

In other words, licensing would only be okay if there no conditions or duration associated with the license. A musician would need to give the game developers a perpetual license to use a song. (I believe that is the case for, for example, the song "Into the Void" by Nine Inch Nails in Warframe, which they've also gone to extended lengths to make sure is safe to stream in its context within the game, so it's not impossible)

Or a license to depict a car would need to be indefinite. Again, probably possible to do, but probably also more expensive than what is currently being done, so you'd see fewer games using that specific kind of licensed content. Apart from games like The Crew where the licensed content (recognizable car brands) is the main draw of the game for some people, it probably wouldn't stop most AAA games from being developed or released, it just might change some of the artistic decisions they make during development.




But here's why that's not what this campaign is about and that's not the solution being proposed by the campaign:

Duration isn't the thing making the licensing fundamental to all three of the games I work on "limited". And the same is true for any mod, fan game, or even game based on a book series (for example, The Witcher). And even with what the real European Citizen's Initiative says its goal is (requiring a game to remain playable after the developer can no longer run the servers for it), only one of the three (DFHack) would be able to do that, and that's the one game that isn't multiplayer by design.

Alien Swarm: Reactive Drop is designed to lean heavily on the Steamworks APIs and Spy Cards Online is designed to do as much with browser cache and peer to peer (WebRTC) communication as possible, so it's unlikely that either would need to be stopped for financial reasons related to server hosting, but if Valve or Moonsprout Games ever said "stop hosting and distributing that game", we'd have to stop.

Valve isn't going to give away permanent, irrevocable rights to one of their franchises to a team of modders. Moonsprout Games isn't going to give away permanent, irrevocable rights to their only franchise to me. Bay12Games only lets DFHack exist because they want to, not because they have to. When the licensing is fundamental to the game, the options are to do what the rights holder says to do with the licensed content (which in all three cases is essentially the entire game I work on) or to be breaking the law. There's no third option. If you try to find one, that's called fraud.
最後修改者:Ben Lubar; 2024 年 9 月 15 日 上午 8:39
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