Kernel anticheat, data collection and privacy within games.

[Anmheda]

I'm so tired of seeing PvE games using kernel level Anticheats these days. I mean, PvE games... Players versus environment... And they decide to include kernel level anticheat systems... that is just so stupid! These kernel level anticheats getting all that root access just to avoid potential "cheaters" from a PvE/Co Op game its beyond stupid, imo. They cant even prove that kernel anticheats works better than non-kernel server side anticheats, if you disagree - then show me some real statistics. My problem with these kernel level anticheats is their elevated access levels, anti cheats should never ever have root/kernel access to any system just to catch potential cheaters. Server side anticheats and non-kernel anticheats like VAC does the job good enough. Just look at Dota 2, a competitive game with lots of tournaments and money involved, do they use kernel level anticheat? No they dont.

And then you have all these games (most of them being online games) doing lots of data collection, and if you dont agree to some of those game company's terms, then you cant play those games (which is okay, to be honest).

I see lots of people complaining about data collection and bad privacy practice on certain games leaving negative reviews, and I totally understand and support that. Then I see people reply stuff like "why complain when google/microsoft/steam already collect data", or comments like "people complaining about data collection when big corporations already collect the same, they not interested in your life" bla bla. I think that is an ignorant way of thinking, people thinking like that will never understand what privacy and security is about. Why should we be okay with games collecting so much data? I understand why facebook collects a lot of data, but why should games do that? And its even worse when they collect a lot of data also being personal data. Why do they need all this data?

And what data does the kernel anticheats collect? I mean, they have root access so they could collect anything. I know Windows and Steam already collects data (not on the kernel level though, and it depends on your settings and firewall), but that doesn't make it okay for game companies to just mass collect data without giving consumers options to opt-put. I really hate the fact that more and more games go online these days collection more and more data without including options to opt-out/in, I hate it.

[pckirk]

this isn't the sub forum to go ranting about this subject, try in the proper sub forum.

[76561198407601200]

Originally posted by Anmheda:

I'm so tired of seeing PvE games using kernel level Anticheats these days. I mean, PvE... Players versus environment... and they decide to include kernel level anticheat systems, that is just so damn stupid. These kernel level anticheats getting all that root access just to avoid potential "cheaters" from a PvE/Co Op game, its beyond stupid. They cant even prove that kernel anticheats works better than non-kernel server side anticheats, if you disagree - then show me some real statistics. My problem with these kernel anticheats is their elevated access levels, anti cheats should never ever have root/kernel access to any PC just to catch potential cheaters in a "game". Server side anticheats and non-kernel anticheats like VAC does the job good enough. Just look at Dota 2, its a real competitive game with lots of tournaments and money involved, do they use kernel level anticheat? No they dont...

Then you have all these games (most of them being online games) doing all that data collection, and if you dont agree to some of those privacy terms then you cant play those games (which is okay, to be honest).

I see lots of people complaining about data collection and bad privacy practice on certain games leaving negative reviews, and I totally understand and support that. Then I see people reply stuff like "why complain when google/microsoft/steam already collect data", or comments like "people complaining about data collection when big corporations already collect the same, they not interested in your life" bla bla. Im so tired seeing stupid comments like that, people thinking like that will never understand what privacy is about. Why should we be okay with games (and let me say it again... "games") collecting so much data? And its even worse when they collect a lot of data also being personal data. Why do they need all this data?
And what data does the kernel anticheats collect? I mean, they have root access so they could collect anything lol. People who defend data collection and give answers like "you already giving away your data to big corps anyway" will never understand privacy. I know Windows and Steam already collect lots of data (depends on your settings and firewall), but that doesn't make it okay for game companies to just mass collect data without giving consumers options to opt-put. I really hate the fact that more and more games go online these days collection more and more data not including options to opt-out/in, I hate it.


More information:

**Kernel-Level Anticheat:**
- Kernel-level anticheat systems operate at the deepest layer of your operating system, granting them maximum control to detect and shut down cheat programs. However, their intrusive nature has sparked controversy.
- Gamers often view them as a crutch used by "lazy devs," fearing performance issues and potential security compromises.
- While kernel-level anticheats can be effective, they also face criticism due to their access to sensitive system components. For instance, Destiny players have lost accounts due to false positives from such anticheat systems.
- Developers must strike a balance between security and user trust. Although secrecy helps in the arms race against cheats, it harms the tech's reputation among gamers.

**Data Collection in Games:**
- Some players argue that since big corporations already collect data, game companies should be allowed to do the same. However, this overlooks the importance of privacy.
- Games collecting personal data raise concerns. While Windows and Steam also collect data, it doesn't justify mass data collection without user consent in games.
- Transparency and user control are crucial. Players should have the option to opt out of data collection, especially when it involves personal information.

**Benefits of Privacy:**
- Privacy matters because it protects our personal lives, prevents misuse of data, and maintains trust.
- Kernel anticheats, with their root access, could potentially collect any data. Developers must ensure they don't abuse this access or introduce vulnerabilities for third parties to exploit.
- Gamers' concerns about data collection are valid, and game companies should prioritize user privacy.

In summary, striking a balance between security and privacy is essential. Developers should be transparent about data collection practices and provide meaningful opt-out choices for players.
Just look at Dota 2, it relies on server-side anticheats, demonstrating that alternatives exist without compromising competitive integrity.

You were given an answer previously.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/4361250750314032801/

[Ben Lubar]

Why did you generate this with ChatGPT? You could have written your own words and expressed your opinion, but you decided to have a computer program generate a wall of text instead.

[HansCent]

Originally posted by Ben Lubar:

Why did you generate this with ChatGPT? You could have written your own words and expressed your opinion, but you decided to have a computer program generate a wall of text instead.

dude was probably just lazy or pretending to be smart*

[Iron Knights]

If they just built-in cheat scrubbers in every game, it would not result in bans even.
Run cheat software, game detects invalid or not allowed parameters, blocks the user parameters from propagation in nanoseconds. No cheat happening.

[.]

Originally posted by Ben Lubar:

Why did you generate this with ChatGPT? You could have written your own words and expressed your opinion, but you decided to have a computer program generate a wall of text instead.

Better question: are you going to address the concern that the OP has?

[Ben Lubar]

Originally posted by Garbage:

Originally posted by Ben Lubar:

Why did you generate this with ChatGPT? You could have written your own words and expressed your opinion, but you decided to have a computer program generate a wall of text instead.

Better question: are you going to address the concern that the OP has?

What do you want me to do? Make a game without anti-cheat implemented as a Windows driver? I already did that.

[Anmheda]

Originally posted by pckirk:

this isn't the sub forum to go ranting about this subject, try in the proper sub forum.

So where should I post this? This is the Steam discussions forum, and games are part of steam, are they not?

[Anmheda]

Originally posted by The Living Tribunal:

You were given an answer previously.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/4361250750314032801/

What are you going on about?? This is a new post, dont mix this one with my old suggestion post.....

[Anmheda]

Originally posted by Ben Lubar:

Why did you generate this with ChatGPT? You could have written your own words and expressed your opinion, but you decided to have a computer program generate a wall of text instead.

Where did you get ChatGPT from? I wrote every word myself, except the last part (more information part), that was written with help from Co Pilot, not ChatGPT...
Maybe you should use ChatGPT when you check something next time, as you clearly have no clue yourself.

[Ben Lubar]

Originally posted by Anmheda:

Originally posted by Ben Lubar:

Why did you generate this with ChatGPT? You could have written your own words and expressed your opinion, but you decided to have a computer program generate a wall of text instead.

Where did you get ChatGPT from? I wrote every word myself, except the last part (more information part), that was written with help from Co Pilot, not ChatGPT...
Maybe you should use ChatGPT when you check something next time, as you clearly have no clue yourself.

So you used Microsoft ChatGPT rather than OpenAI ChatGPT? Sure, whatever. Next time just stop after you finish writing your post and don't add twice as many words as you needed.

[Anmheda]

Originally posted by Ben Lubar:

Originally posted by Anmheda:

Where did you get ChatGPT from? I wrote every word myself, except the last part (more information part), that was written with help from Co Pilot, not ChatGPT...
Maybe you should use ChatGPT when you check something next time, as you clearly have no clue yourself.

So you used Microsoft ChatGPT rather than OpenAI ChatGPT? Sure, whatever. Next time just stop after you finish writing your post and don't add twice as many words as you needed.

Yeah I guess I could have avoided that "more information part", but next time you shouldnt assume every text in a post is written by an AI though.

[76561198407601200]

Originally posted by Anmheda:

Originally posted by The Living Tribunal:

You were given an answer previously.

https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/4361250750314032801/

What are you going on about?? This is a new post, dont mix this one with my old suggestion post.....

There is no mix up, they are regarding the same topic.

[ReBoot]

Originally posted by Anmheda:

I'm so tired of seeing PvE games using kernel level Anticheats these days. I mean, PvE... Players versus environment... and they decide to include kernel level anticheat systems, that is just so damn stupid. These kernel level anticheats getting all that root access just to avoid potential "cheaters" from a PvE/Co Op game, its beyond stupid. They cant even prove that kernel anticheats works better than non-kernel server side anticheats, if you disagree - then show me some real statistics. My problem with these kernel anticheats is their elevated access levels, anti cheats should never ever have root/kernel access to any PC just to catch potential cheaters in a "game". Server side anticheats and non-kernel anticheats like VAC does the job good enough. Just look at Dota 2, a competitive game with lots of tournaments and money involved, do they use kernel level anticheat? No they dont...

Then you have all these games (most of them being online games) doing all that data collection, and if you dont agree to some of those privacy terms then you cant play those games (which is okay, to be honest).

I see lots of people complaining about data collection and bad privacy practice on certain games leaving negative reviews, and I totally understand and support that. Then I see people reply stuff like "why complain when google/microsoft/steam already collect data", or comments like "people complaining about data collection when big corporations already collect the same, they not interested in your life" bla bla. Im so tired seeing stupid comments like that, people thinking like that will never understand what privacy is about. Why should we be okay with games (and let me say it again... "games") collecting so much data? And its even worse when they collect a lot of data also being personal data. Why do they need all this data?
And what data does the kernel anticheats collect? I mean, they have root access so they could collect anything lol. People who defend data collection and give answers like "you already giving away your data to big corps anyway" will never understand privacy. I know Windows and Steam already collect lots of data (depends on your settings and firewall), but that doesn't make it okay for game companies to just mass collect data without giving consumers options to opt-put. I really hate the fact that more and more games go online these days collection more data without including options to opt-out/in, I hate it.

Feel free to boycott games utilizing such practices.

[Ben Lubar]

Originally posted by BlackBloodRum:

Originally posted by ReBoot:

Feel free to boycott games utilizing such practices.

Basically this. Don't buy and use those products. As long as people are buying it, and accepting those practices it will only continue. If people refused to allow it, and stopped buying their products because of it then they would be forced to stop.

Or just use an OS where the kernel level anti-cheats cannot work in the first place.

To expand on this further, the people who are reading this thread probably don't fall into both the set of people who make the decision of what kind of anticheat technology to use and the set of people who would pick Windows drivers as the medium for their anticheat.

So not playing the games is pretty much all anyone can do. I have a decision-making role in the development of a game that has anti-cheat, but I also have a background in compilers and software reverse engineering, so I have a better idea of what using a specific technology will actually affect than some management executive who hasn't written a single line of code. I'm not going to make my game install kernel modules for anti-cheat because I know that's at best security theater and at worst a huge attack surface.

But that's also not to say that just because anti-cheat runs in user space it's safe or ethical. There's a lot of information on your computer, and the stuff that's actually scary if someone gets their hands on it mostly belongs to your user account. Anti-cheat generally isn't going to try to change things on your computer. The part you worry about is the information it's reading (or in the case of kernel modules, possibly allowing a third party to read).

https://xkcd.com/1200/