Is Sony breaking Valve ToS,using Helldivers 2 to Poach Steam users to PSN?

[SnakeWildlife]

I am reporting on behalf of gamers who are frustrated by the changes to Helldivers 2 which threatens to remove access to a game that users have only recently paid for, as the game is soon to be ripped from their hands by force. The Helldivers 2 game is changing to require a PSN account, or you lose access to the game, which wasn't the case until recently and this wasn't included in the terms and conditions of the game.

Does this breach Valve's terms and conditions?

I am asking for Valve/Steam to review the situation, because to me it looks like a brazen attempt to force users (with dagger at their backs), poaching them from the Steam Platform, forcing them to switch to Sony's Playstation platform.

If i were Valve...i would consider this an attempt to poach users forcefully, and i would talk to the board about kicking Sony's 'Helldivers 2' the game off its platform and refunding.

This looks like a serious breach of Valve's rules.

Im not smart enough to know all the ins-and-outs, so i ask that this be debated by you folks who know a lot more about the situation.

We the Helldivers 2 community feel betrayed and infuriated. We are being forced into a path of "Make a PSN account" or "A game i just bought gets removed and my money just gets deleted". We are in large amounts...walking towards the door of MASS REFUND.

This isnt right, the situation is horrible.

[RiO]

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Цитата допису RiO:

Here's the thing: depending on applicable jurisdiction, that is NOT the only relevant information. Under the EU's jurisdiction any information made publicly available by either the trader or their supplier, counts. The publisher in this case is Sony and they themselves continued to state the game did not necessitate a PSN account.

First, show me that you are an affected customer.

Everyone is an 'affected customer,' because if this kind of thing passes unchallenged it sets a precedent for the future.

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

If you are playing the lawyer, you should also link all relevant laws regarding that and where exactly that is applicable and not twist things in such a fashion it suits your opinion.

I'm not playing laywer. I'm not giving anyone legal advice.
And also: you don't have to be a lawyer to parse laws or be able to understand and by extension discuss their impact. (In fact -- every citizen is required to know the law in most countries in the world, afaik, with ignorance not being a legal defense, etc.) No- I am merely making the observation that within the EU territories certain legislation applies that changes the perspective on these things, compared to - say - the USA.


The directive on consumer rights 2011/83[eur-lex.europa.eu], and its equivalents in implementation in individual member state law apply.

Article 6.1 of said directive will give you the rundown on the information requirements traders are required to inform consumers of in advance of sale, which includes applicable technical protection measures and interoperability concerns with other hardware and software, under both of which the connection to PSN fall.

This is why the Steam storefront page is legally required to report these kind of things. Same where third-party DRM or anti-tamperware like Denuvo is applied, or where anti-cheat solutions like EAC are present.

Continuing down the line of reasoning, the directive on the sale of digital content 2019/770[eur-lex.europa.eu] is also relevant. Where article 8.1b states that purchased digital content shall
"be of the quantity and possess the qualities and performance features, including in relation to functionality, compatibility, accessibility, continuity and security, normal for digital content or digital services of the same type and which the consumer may reasonably expect, given the nature of the digital content or digital service and taking into account any public statement made by or on behalf of the trader, or other persons in previous links of the chain of transactions, particularly in advertising or on labelling" (emphasis mine)

Three exceptions apply to that:

1. "the trader was not, and could not reasonably have been, aware of the public statement in question" -- which does not apply here, since Valve relies directly on the publishers themselves to truthfully fill out the storefront page on the Steam platform and the publishers have all this information available to them at will.
   
2. "by the time of conclusion of the contract, the public statement had been corrected in the same way as, or in a way comparable to how, it had been made;" -- which also does not apply as undertakings such as the Wayback Machine illustrate Sony quietly and covertly altered the information published on their own site, only on May 2nd - May 3rd.
   
3. "the decision to acquire the digital content or digital service could not have been influenced by the public statement;" -- which clearly applies neither for those where the need to create a PSN account is a breaking point; nor especially for those that can't legally create a PSN account to begin with.

So if users see conflicting statements between what's listed on Steam; between what's listed on Sony's own site; between what's listed in all kinds of other places including authorized official Steam resellers; and see an enormous corpus of messages from active owners all of which indicates the PSN ID is skippable, with just the Steam storefront listing being the odd one out that lists the PSN ID as required; and with very subpar messaging from developer Arrowhead and publisher Sony Interactive Entertainment that the information on Steam actually is the authorative and correct version -- well...

It becomes quite compelling to find that this violates the principles captured by aforementioned articles of legislation, which place due burden on the trader to ensure they properly and in understandable language have informed the consumer - without introducing ambiguities that may lead to misunderstanding and would lead the consumer down the path of entering into a contract they otherwise might not have.

The official guidance on directive 2011/83[eur-lex.europa.eu] by the EU Commission applies for this. Specifically paragraph 3.1.2 regarding clarity of the information to be provided, which mentions the requirement for such information to be provided in a clear and comprehensible manner without leaving room for ambiguity.

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Also, the EU laws are only applicable in EU countries and not globally.

Which part of

Цитата допису RiO:

depending on applicable jurisdiction

did you fail to understand, exactly?

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Fact is, that the store page did list PSN as a requirement from the very beginning. If a customer does not evaluate the purchase properly and then plays surprised that something is a requirement what was clearly stated, ... well that is his or her own fault.

Fact is that customers did evaluate all the information available in advance of purchase properly. And it is exactly this, that has lead to their confusion over the required or optional nature of the PSN account.

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Don't speak on behalf on an anonymous mass of users which did not ask them for help and you did not get permission to speak for them.

Then neither should you, correct?
Also; I never spoke for an anonymous mass of users. I spoke up against your notion that what's listed on the Steam storefront is the only thing that matters. Where I'm giving you an alternate view on the matter that this may not be the case in all jurisdictions.

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Valve still offers a refund, if you are not satisfied. End of Story.

And it is good that they offer a refund. But it doesn't solve the wider problem of this type of thing setting a precedent that shouldn't be set.

Цитата допису Chompman:

https://store.steampowered.com/eula/553850_eula_0

You are bound by this Agreement’s most current version. SIE may modify this Agreement’s terms at any time. Please check this URL from time to time for changes to this Agreement. Your continued access to or use of the Software will signify your acceptance of the latest version of this Agreement.

Interesting faux-pas on Sony's part.

That might mean updates to the EULA actually are unenforceable in the EU.
The other side to a consumer contract is required to actively inform the consumer a reasonable period in advance when they update their terms of service. (And if we want to nitpick they are iirc legally required to at least pass you a summary of the most important changes on a durable medium - i.e. a medium that is not under their direct control to be able to modify post-fact.)

Simply updating a website and relying on consumers themselves to check back periodically is non-compliant.

[Soren]

Sony is by far from the first to require an account on an alternate platform to play your game. Ubisoft does this time from time. EA does as well. Microsoft too.

What's unique about the Hell Divers 2 situation is people being blindsided with the account requirement some time after launch, even if the store page technically had the information that it was going to happen.

[Blitzwing]

Цитата допису Soren:

Sony is by far from the first to require an account on an alternate platform to play your game. Ubisoft does this time from time. EA does as well. Microsoft too.

What's unique about the Hell Divers 2 situation is people being blindsided with the account requirement some time after launch, even if the store page technically had the information that it was going to happen.

But for example Uplay does force you to make it work from start on, to play the game,
not 3 month later.

[Chompman]

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

Цитата допису Soren:

Sony is by far from the first to require an account on an alternate platform to play your game. Ubisoft does this time from time. EA does as well. Microsoft too.

What's unique about the Hell Divers 2 situation is people being blindsided with the account requirement some time after launch, even if the store page technically had the information that it was going to happen.

But for example Uplay does force you to make it work from start on, to play the game,
not 3 month later.

And it was planned to be the same thing for PSN except because of the server issues they had to temporary disable it and now it's fixed so once again you have to use it as you knew you had to when you bought the game.

[Soren]

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

But for example Uplay does force you to make it work from start on, to play the game,
not 3 month later.

Yeah, my second paragraph basically said the same thing.

Цитата допису Chompman:

And it was planned to be the same thing for PSN except because of the server issues they had to temporary disable it and now it's fixed so once again you have to use it as you knew you had to when you bought the game.

It seemed most players didn't think the requirement would come back. Looking through the post history. Most people gave the advice the game didn't require a PSN account and would continue that way.

Too that end, it's a failure of the development team or Sony that most people didn't know what they were getting into and that misconceptions became the majority understanding. They probably should have tried harder to remind or communicate to players the account requirement would be coming back. It's why they're in this mess now. The mess is mostly Sony's fault though. Because the developers are implying Sony has their hands tied on this one.

[Blitzwing]

Цитата допису Chompman:

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

But for example Uplay does force you to make it work from start on, to play the game,
not 3 month later.

And it was planned to be the same thing for PSN except because of the server issues they had to temporary disable it and now it's fixed so once again you have to use it as you knew you had to when you bought the game.

Цитата допису Soren:

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

But for example Uplay does force you to make it work from start on, to play the game,
not 3 month later.

Yeah, my second paragraph basically said the same thing.

Цитата допису Chompman:

And it was planned to be the same thing for PSN except because of the server issues they had to temporary disable it and now it's fixed so once again you have to use it as you knew you had to when you bought the game.

It seemed most players didn't think the requirement would come back. Looking through the post history. Most people gave the advice the game didn't require a PSN account and would continue that way.

Too that end, it's a failure of the development team or Sony that most people didn't know what they were getting into and that misconceptions became the majority understanding. They probably should have tried harder to remind or communicate to players the account requirement would be coming back. It's why they're in this mess now. The mess is mostly Sony's fault though. Because the developers are implying Sony has their hands tied on this one.

No. This is not the right excuse for their behaviour.
They are not selling an early access title,
indie developer, did go bankrupt or are bought by another party.





This game is 4 month later delisted in 177 nations
https://steamcommunity.com/app/553850/discussions/0/4357872562123693485/


They clearly did plan to scam steam and steams customers.


Such third party software has to work day 1, otherwise they should have had delayed the release till their third party software does work. Plan ahead to altering the game and lie about that the software is optional, so it will be unplayable for at least 150 nations is very clearly not an accident, but made on purpose.


It's the biggest Valve ToS violation in years, they purposely did plan to scam people.
-lied on their homepage and lied as people did boot the game.
No game seller is allowed on steam to lie to people and introduce on purpose third party software later to make games unplayable.

This is for most nations straight up criminal what they are doing.

[Ben Lubar]

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

This is for most nations straight up criminal what they are doing.

You can get 100% of your money back just by asking. You do not have governmental "rights" to be able to play a video game. If you are unable to play the video game, ask for a refund.

[MadZec]

Developers and Sony made big mistake on comunicating with community they had to be MUCH and I mean MUCH clearer with the community that they will need the PSN account and NEVER sell it in countries that can never have PSN accounts... I do hope people do get game refunded...

[Ben Lubar]

There's definitely a big mess, but I don't think anything illegal happened.

If you're in a country that can't sign up for PSN and you own a copy of Helldivers 2, ask for a refund.

If you're able to make a PSN account but you don't want to and you own a copy of Helldivers 2, ask for a refund.

No sense in worrying about the mess. That just makes more mess.

If you bought any game and you can't run it, ask for a refund. The 2 hour / 2 week limit is only for automatic, no questions asked refunds. If you have a legitimate reason to ask for a refund, you will very likely get that refund.

[MadZec]

They should made it much clearer that it will be required to everyone or simply MAKE it right away.... not to let players play it without one FOR FOUR MONTHS everyone thinking it will go like that (bare in mind there was no claim game is still worked on like early access but that it was complete product) and then suddenlly PAF you need account FOUR MONTHS later.... No one did not mentioned that people would need PSN account NO ONE reminded that it would be needed in 1.0 game....

[Blitzwing]

Цитата допису Ben Lubar:

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

This is for most nations straight up criminal what they are doing.

You can get 100% of your money back just by asking. You do not have governmental "rights" to be able to play a video game. If you are unable to play the video game, ask for a refund.

I do really like the game.

I did buy via steam base game 40 Euros, Delux Edition 20 Euros and In game Currency 20 Euros. I am not sure if In game Currency can be refunded.

If I do refund now, that would be money from steam/valve, not from the scammer from sony.
I would really like to keep it in a playable condition, but that depens if PSN will be a thing or not.

If PSN will be forced, I will try my luck.

[shakeyourbunny]

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

If PSN will be forced, I will try my luck.

You already knew that on purchase that it is required and the game wants to link the Steam account to PSN on launch.

Wishful thinking and actively exploiting a loop hole does not absolute you and gives you the right to call companies scammers when they point the requirements from day one out.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

If I do refund now, that would be money from steam/valve, not from the scammer from sony.
I would really like to keep it in a playable condition, but that depens if PSN will be a thing or not.

Also wishful thinking when that has been already been stated that current customers will have to link the Steam Account end of May / first week of June 2024.

[Blitzwing]

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

If PSN will be forced, I will try my luck.

You already knew that on purchase that it is required and the game wants to link the Steam account to PSN on launch.

Wishful thinking and actively exploiting a loop hole does not absolute you and gives you the right to call companies criminals.

for 4rth time, the official webpage for PSN did say its optional
https://9gag.com/gag/a87WnXp

And here is the cherry on the top,
the official site on german language still does say its optional
https://www.playstation.com/de-de/support/games/psn-sign-in-pc/

I am from Germany.
If I do go right now from games link to the webpage, it does say it's optional.
I would not know about it at all, without to read it from the forums on english.

here proof they still lie about it on the german language. it still does say its optional
https://web.archive.org/web/20240503222640/https://www.playstation.com/de-de/support/games/psn-sign-in-pc/?country-selector=true

Again, its an unusual situation where a game developer/publisher does lie by his terms and conditions.

[shakeyourbunny]

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

for 4rth time, the official webpage for PSN did say its optional
https://9gag.com/gag/a87WnXp

It is already stated again, again and again that this is not relevant. The only relevant web page is the Steam store page, as other people noted.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

I am from Germany.

You don't need to say that, this is more than obvious (also same for Roi), but I already stated that I disregard that because it is not relevant for the discussion.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

If I do go right now from games link to the webpage, it does say it's optional.
I would not know about it at all, without to read it from the forums on english.

here proof they still lie about it on the german language. it still does say its optional
https://web.archive.org/web/20240503222640/https://www.playstation.com/de-de/support/games/psn-sign-in-pc/?country-selector=true

Yes it states that you are eligible for bonus content and it is indeed optional for "Playstation games".

The big BUT is, there is a list of games on the very same page which lists all supported games which fall under this optional login:

Marvel's Spider-Man Remastered
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales
Sackboy: A Big Adventure
The Last of Us Part I
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart
UNCHARTED™: Legacy of Thieves Collection
Returnal

Helldivers 2 is NOT on this list of games where this knowledge base article applies to.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

Again, its an unusual situation where a game developer/publisher does lie by his terms and conditions.

Nope, even the support page where you again again reference that "optional login" is correct that Helldivers 2 has a mandatory PSN login.

If you look more carefully and compare the list of games which are published under the Playstation publisher on Steam, which are missing for a reason:

- Ghosts of Tsushima (not yet released) ( PSN mandatory for online gaming / Coop )
- HellDivers 2 (PSN mandatory for online gaming / coop -- it's a service game duh)

- Horizon Zero Forbidden West (not yet released) (PSN will be optional and will be listed here)

- Until Dawn (PSN requirements unknown, seems not requirement)
- Horizon Zero Dawn (PSN not required)
- God of War (PSN not required)
- Predators Hunting Ground (PSN not required)
- Days Gone (PSN not required).


It looks like that Sony is differentiating the games when it is mandatory or not, looks like it depends on multiplayer. But what I do say, if you only can think in black and white.

[Blitzwing]

Цитата допису shakeyourbunny:

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

It is already stated again, again and again that this is not relevant. The only relevant web page is the Steam store page, as other people noted.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

I am from Germany.

You don't need to say that, this is more than obvious (also same for Roi), but I already stated that I disregard that because it is not relevant for the discussion.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

If I do go right now from games link to the webpage, it does say it's optional.
I would not know about it at all, without to read it from the forums on english.

here proof they still lie about it on the german language. it still does say its optional
https://web.archive.org/web/20240503222640/https://www.playstation.com/de-de/support/games/psn-sign-in-pc/?country-selector=true

Yes it states that you are eligible for bonus content and it is indeed optional for "Playstation games".

The big BUT is, there is a list of games on the very same page which lists all supported games which fall under this optional login:

Marvel's Spider-Man Remastered
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales
Sackboy: A Big Adventure
The Last of Us Part I
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart
UNCHARTED™: Legacy of Thieves Collection
Returnal

Helldivers 2 is NOT on this list of games where this knowledge base article applies to.

Цитата допису Blitzwing:

Again, its an unusual situation where a game developer/publisher does lie by his terms and conditions.

Nope, even the support page where you again again reference that "optional login" is correct that Helldivers 2 has a mandatory PSN login.

If you look more carefully and compare the list of games which are published under the Playstation publisher on Steam, which are missing for a reason:

- Ghosts of Tsushima (not yet released) ( PSN mandatory for online gaming / Coop )
- HellDivers 2 (PSN mandatory for online gaming / coop -- it's a service game duh)

- Horizon Zero Forbidden West (not yet released) (PSN will be optional and will be listed here)

- Until Dawn (PSN requirements unknown, seems not requirement)
- Horizon Zero Dawn (PSN not required)
- God of War (PSN not required)
- Predators Hunting Ground (PSN not required)
- Days Gone (PSN not required).


It looks like that Sony is differentiating the games when it is mandatory or not, looks like it depends on multiplayer. But what I do say, if you only can think in black and white.

Horizon Zero Forbidden West is actually already released on steam and doesn't need PSN account.