Valve ordered to refund $15k to CS:GO player as cases ruled ‘illegal’ in Austria

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https://www.dexerto.com/counter-strike-2/valve-ordered-to-refund-15k-to-csgo-player-as-cases-ruled-illegal-in-austria-2437525/

Valve must pay back €14,096.58 ($15,426.73) to a CS:GO player who spent the money opening cases after a court in Austria ruled that Counter-Strike cases constituted illegal gambling in the country. Valve can choose to appeal the decision.

Gambling is evil, steam also broke Austrian law

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

xBCxRangers původně napsal:

Valve will pay the cost of their neglect. We have laws in our respective countries, that protect our youngsters and older folks alike. As was said, Valve is not in Kansas anymore.

Fess up, pay up, and get your house in ORDER, Mr Newell

This still has nothing to do with Windows 7 and it still won't get you what you want.

[Prolific-ForSaleTradeALLMustGo]

This is why I tell Lawyer Andys to stop telling people they have no legal chance against TOS. Local law always trumps TOS.

[Prolific-ForSaleTradeALLMustGo]

GobboKirk původně napsal:

Prosciutt1 původně napsal:

i am surprised this didn't happened in europe aswell

It was in Austria in Africa? :p
I get what you mean though and it will probably happen eventually.

"As well" means in addition to, not the same place. Comprehension just died lol

[Brian9824]

Prolific-ForSaleTradeALLMustGo původně napsal:

This is why I tell Lawyer Andys to stop telling people they have no legal chance against TOS. Local law always trumps TOS.

This had nothing at all to do with the TOS. Just as simple as they are deciding they are going to classify loot boxes as gambling. They didn't even give Valve a fine over it as its a new law and there has been a lot of confusion and ambiguity around it.

[GamingWithSilvertail]

Tito Shivan původně napsal:

TLDR: Austria does not forbid gambling, but requires a license to do so. Since Valve doesn't own one they cannot sell lootboxes, as AUS tribunal has considered the items within as monetary value.
Austrians can say goodbye to CSGO cases, like it happened in Belgium.

And 14K is pretty much spare change for any big company anyway.

Note this will affect every game with lootboxes (Like EA's FIFA Ultimate cards). So this is a case of Austria banning lootboxes (Doubt any developer will go through getting a gabling license)

Godsped lootboxes, (Looking forward to Spain to follow suit with a similar regulation which was announced last year, but elections and new goverment have put things on hold)

They should fix that.

Netherlands and belgium as you said allready dont allow lootboxes to be opened because of said license

[Brian9824]

GamingWithSilvertail původně napsal:

Tito Shivan původně napsal:

TLDR: Austria does not forbid gambling, but requires a license to do so. Since Valve doesn't own one they cannot sell lootboxes, as AUS tribunal has considered the items within as monetary value.
Austrians can say goodbye to CSGO cases, like it happened in Belgium.

And 14K is pretty much spare change for any big company anyway.

Note this will affect every game with lootboxes (Like EA's FIFA Ultimate cards). So this is a case of Austria banning lootboxes (Doubt any developer will go through getting a gabling license)

Godsped lootboxes, (Looking forward to Spain to follow suit with a similar regulation which was announced last year, but elections and new goverment have put things on hold)

They should fix that.

Netherlands and belgium as you said allready dont allow lootboxes to be opened because of said license

They will, either by removing them or by tweaking how it works like they did with France.

[Amaterasu]

Thinking I'm going to just inject my two cents into this matter. While yes, it did technically violate Austrian Law because Valve lacked a gambling license to be able to promote a mechanic seen as gambling in Austria. This is a case of a man who was angry at his own lack of self-control and not getting what he wanted after putting himself in debt. Instead of learning better self control or accepting the fact that he himself was the one that was holding the metaphorical shovel, he instead decided to pursue legal action. There's a chance that Valve might refund the guy and completely blacklist him from Steam.

Now don't get me wrong, I think lootboxes are scummy and predatory. I think that they are designed to be psychologically manipulative. As someone who struggled with addiction in the past and still does, I can say that the person who ended up in this situation did so of his own volition. It was his choice to keep going down the rabbit hole, just like it's the choice of a smoker to keep smoking or vaping.

Also any smart gambler would tell you that if you're on a losing streak, that next pull isn't worth it and even if you're on a hot streak, that next pull could be the one where you lose it all.

[bidulless]

brian9824 původně napsal:

GamingWithSilvertail původně napsal:

They should fix that.

Netherlands and belgium as you said allready dont allow lootboxes to be opened because of said license

They will, either by removing them or by tweaking how it works like they did with France.

hello

They did nothing for france

[Brian9824]

bidulless původně napsal:

brian9824 původně napsal:

They will, either by removing them or by tweaking how it works like they did with France.

hello

They did nothing for france

They did indeed - https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/1/20893490/cs-go-loot-box-x-ray-scanner-france

It technically makes it no longer gambling while fundamentally changing nothing on how the process works.

[bidulless]

brian9824 původně napsal:

bidulless původně napsal:

hello

They did nothing for france

They did indeed - https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/1/20893490/cs-go-loot-box-x-ray-scanner-france

It technically makes it no longer gambling while fundamentally changing nothing on how the process works.

hello

Funny, thx for the link @brian9824, i've never heard of this.
https://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/2019/09/25667/

[Brian9824]

bidulless původně napsal:

brian9824 původně napsal:

They did indeed - https://www.polygon.com/2019/10/1/20893490/cs-go-loot-box-x-ray-scanner-france

It technically makes it no longer gambling while fundamentally changing nothing on how the process works.

hello

Funny, thx for the link @brian9824, i've never heard of this.
https://blog.counter-strike.net/index.php/2019/09/25667/

Yep, something like this or just doing away with the loot boxes will be the likely result. Its not really gambling afterall if you know what the slot machine will result in BEFORE you pay.

[Tito Shivan]

brian9824 původně napsal:

They will, either by removing them or by tweaking how it works like they did with France.

They'll probably promptly forbid opening of lootboxes in the region.

The tweak they did for france is because their regulation was different, which doesn't seem the case here.

[Brian9824]

Tito Shivan původně napsal:

brian9824 původně napsal:

They will, either by removing them or by tweaking how it works like they did with France.

They'll probably promptly forbid opening of lootboxes in the region.

The tweak they did for france is because their regulation was different, which doesn't seem the case here.

Yeah, i mean it really depends on how gambling is classified. Either way they will tweak it and like most of their changes day to day users will be hurt and inconvenienced because of a few who can't use things responsibly.

[RiO]

brian9824 původně napsal:

Mad Scientist původně napsal:

Stores aren't responsible to manage peoppes addictions. That's the people in question or anyone that has authority or legal authority over them. If someone's reckless enough to spend 15k on crates/lootboxes and is detrimental to their living, someone should have power of attorney over their finances.

I mean its amazing how people ignore the plethora of addictions that exist like video games, sex, etc. Yet no one is saying that sex needs to be regulated and controlled despite it being a harmful addiction.

Combating sex addiction was actually one of the reasons that some UK legislators trotted out in defense of the anti-porn legislation they wanted to push through.

brian9824 původně napsal:

MonkehMaster původně napsal:

imagine claiming facts are my opinions.... lol.

the government, health industries, studies/ect.. and the majority of the world, must all have bad opinions then, cause they all say gambling is bad.

Yes, your opinion, plenty of people acknowledge the positives and benefits to gambling - https://www.healthtechzone.com/topics/healthcare/articles/2019/11/21/443799-health-benefits-gambling.htm

Just like Alcohol in moderation can be good, but doing it in excess is bad. Gambling isn't inherently evil, just like pain meds aren't inherently bad but can be abused and become dangerous.

Protecting people against the excesses is why many countries regulate the distribution and advertisement of alcohol, such that irresponsible minors aren't exposed to it. It is also why many countries regulate the sale of alcohol in drinking establishments via licensing, and why the terms of those licenses require bartenders to stop serving further alcohol to people who are clearly wasted.

This is also why in many countries stronger painkillers are not available over-the-counter in drug stores but require a doctor's receipt. And why some countries have legislation that requires higher dosages of common-place painkillers to come in smaller packages and require drug stores to limit sales to consumers by a given maximum amount.

Those checks and balances are in place because the reality of the situation is that a large portion of people can't control themselves and society would turn to crap if we would allow commercial entities to exploit them, scot-free.

Why should gambling be any different?
No reason to ban it. Just make it subject to legislation to curb the excesses. That's what e.g. the gambling legislation in the Netherlands and Belgium does, and why companies that want to offer gambling are required to be licensed to do so.

The fact that game publishers don't want to subject themselves to licensing, means they know they can never meet the required standards for the license, or that their intended business model would no longer be profitable under those conditions. I.e. their refusal to license and their position to instead recede from the market is an implicit admission of the fact that they're exploitative scumbags with no qualms over screwing over people. Period.

In other words: loot boxes in their current shape and form are indefensible and should be removed. They shouldn't be licensed. They should be given the ax. Some forms of gambling, like loot boxes, are simply like that. Wouldn't be the first game of gambling that is outlawed either.

cinedine původně napsal:

Alcohol itself doesn't harm your body and mind either.

It actually does. Every drop of alcohol provably damages your body. It's toxic to us. Poisonous. It's just that your body has a certain degree of ability to buffer and mitigate the damage; as well as self-repair after the toxin has been drained from your system. This is why it doesn't become permanently damaging until you cross the threshold where your body can no longer weather it. Just don't mistake the superficial lack of permanence of damage for a total lack of damage.

Start_Running původně napsal:

Heretic původně napsal:

The fact that one person ended up losing 15k to Valve where it ended up in the courts is proof that Valve is exploiting addiction on a games platform which is full of young people.

That'd be true if this guy wasn't clearly a behavioural outlier. a fraction of a percentage. and you can't really claim exploitation when something only works 0.5% of a time.

"Turning players into payers" is a turn of phrase that applies here.
The freemium games industry is kept afloat by that small percentage of 'whales' financing it. There's an entire secondary industry of 'whale hunters' that sprouted to facilitate the freemium games industry with big data and behavioral analysis services, which try to find and isolate those whales and figure out how to harpoon them at the most efficient time.