When Valve stops supporting WIndows 10, it'll be interesting community response to it.

[WolfEisberg]

My low end gaming laptop cannot upgrade to Windows 11 at all. While the CPU does support TPM, the bios/motherboard do not, which means there is no way for me to upgrade to Windows 11 on this laptop.

Previously when Valve stopped support of an OS people could just upgrade their OS since the system requirements for the upgraded OS were typically the same as the system requirements for the previous windows version. The same cannot be said about WIndows 11 since it requires the computer to support TPM.

This means for me when Steam no longer works on Windows 10, if I want to continue to play Steam games on a laptop my options will be:

1- Get a new laptop
2- Not play Steam games
3- change to linux

Now personally, option 1 isn't going to happen because I rarely play games on this laptop anyways. So that leaves option 2 and 3. Changing to Linux wouldn't be a big deal because 99% of the use of this laptop is on web browser anyways.

But how this would personally affect me isn't the point anyways. But the community response will be interesting.

There will be people who cannot upgrade to WIndows 11, and they'll have legitimate reasons why which is the lack of TPM support on their PC. Telling people to upgrade to Window 11 won't be a valid suggestion.

Moving to Linux has it's draw backs because it is not as normal user friendly as Windows is, and finding help with various problems that will happen often leads to people telling you to use command line to fix the issue, which often does not come with good instructions on how to do that. So it'll be understandable why people wouldn't want to move to Linux either.

So the response will be very interesting, it won't be the same as it was for Windows 7 purely because of the TPM requirement for WIndows 11.

[Mad Scientist]

WolfEisberg eredeti hozzászólása:

MonkehMaster eredeti hozzászólása:

just bypass the requirements for win 11 and use the upgrade feature to move over to win 11, its quite easy, i did it for my main pc, straight from win 7 pro, to win 10 pro and then win 11 pro (though as mentioned i still have my win 7 install (running like new and fully updated).

or i guess you could fresh install win 11, thats just as easy.

i have laptop(s) as old as 2007 running win 11 pro and if i can find any older, im almost sure i can have it running on them as well.

or i guess you could try win 12 :cqlol:

Bypassing the requirement makes the system extremely more likely to be unstable. Haven't seen a PC yet that isn't unstable by installing W11 while not meeting all the requirements. SO that isn't even a valid suggestion to make.

Those that don't meet it and are unstable would likely be a very low computational power or resource maximum, so it would be more the tasks than the OS to contribute towards reaching an incredibly expected problem by lack of computational power, thermal issues, lack of ram, lack of graphical computational power etc.

For example 4GB-8GB users with FX-8350s are likely going to have issues almost regardless of the OS if they're intending on gaming or doing anything intensive, and just about everything is intensive for FX-8350s let alone other CPUs of the era, and you'd be surprised how many people still use those or other low-performance CPUs.

[Crashed]

MonkehMaster eredeti hozzászólása:

WolfEisberg eredeti hozzászólása:

Bypassing the requirement makes the system extremely more likely to be unstable. Haven't seen a PC yet that isn't unstable by installing W11 while not meeting all the requirements. SO that isn't even a valid suggestion to make.

if you say so, mine run stable... seems you or others may have had issues to figure out.

This is what I'm talking about - https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/1aok1dp/windows_11_version_24h2_since_build_25905_will/
It doesn't affect any currently released version, only preview versions at this time.

[CJM]

Crashed eredeti hozzászólása:

MonkehMaster eredeti hozzászólása:

if you say so, mine run stable... seems you or others may have had issues to figure out.

This is what I'm talking about - https://www.reddit.com/r/Windows11/comments/1aok1dp/windows_11_version_24h2_since_build_25905_will/
It doesn't affect any currently released version, only preview versions at this time.

The AVX and POPCNT instructions are part of SSE4.2. Intel made this a standard on their desktop CPUs with the 4rd Generation Core series, which is the 2nd Gen Core i3/i5/i7 series.

A 2nd Gen i7 and later should be able to run Windows 11 perfectly stable. Its code base is still mostly shared with Windows 10.

Chelle eredeti hozzászólása:

This world is neither equal or fair or cares about your own decisions that may backfire.
This world and its businesses are not obligated to you for what is essentially a business model.

Electronic Arts has announced that they are discontinuing the development of licensed games, and cancelled a Star Wars game in development.

Business is ownership over property, with the intention of controlling costs.

Small businesses outsource their I.T. needs to local businesses. Larger businesses and Enterprises maintain staff internally, that eventually includes on staff programmers.

What Microsoft is doing with TPM requirements in Windows 11 is putting businesses on notice of increased costs of operations.

What Microsoft is doing with the Azure Cloud and Microsoft 365 infrastructure, is putting I.T. students and employees on notice that Microsoft wants to take away their opportunities for experience. Which is putting businesses on notice for higher operating costs with regards to outsourcing I.T. to a $25 minimum wage state of California, vs more locally (Georgia's minimum wage is $5, which defaults to the Federal level of $7.25 for Help Desk and I.T.).

What Valve is doing is making Linux more appealing to the student demographic, which is going to increase general knowledge of Linux. This is going to improve the economic viability of Linux, increasing the opportunity of businesses to exercise the demon that is Microsoft.

If you can't have internal control over the costs of software, then an open source paradigm to share the costs across a larger ecosystem may prove a more sound strategy.

What seems to be backfiring at current, is investing in Microsoft as the shared cost solution in the ecosystem.

[Crashed]

AVX is not part of SSE4.2, it's an entirely new instruction set. It is still not needed in 24H2, and so far my old Lenovo laptop with an AMD E-450 still successfully boots the preview.

[Ben Lubar]

Crashed eredeti hozzászólása:

AVX is not part of SSE4.2, it's an entirely new instruction set. It is still not needed in 24H2, and so far my old Lenovo laptop with an AMD E-450 still successfully boots the preview.

Your processor is apparently from 2011, and AMD themselves introduced the POPCNT instruction in 2007. (Intel introduced it to their chips with the Nehalem architecture in 2008.)

[CJM]

Crashed eredeti hozzászólása:

AVX is not part of SSE4.2, it's an entirely new instruction set. It is still not needed in 24H2, and so far my old Lenovo laptop with an AMD E-450 still successfully boots the preview.

I swear the last time I did a Google search for "Nehalem", all I got was Xeon chips, indicating that the POPCNT was not present on desktop class CPUs until the generation thereafter.

AMD's documentation regarding such instruction sets seems even more lackluster. It is a 2011 CPU, so it does seem to fit the general rule of thumb.

You would have needed to bypass the requirements for a TPM module at least, but I cannot imagine any reason for the AMD E-450 to be unstable with regards to Windows 11. As long as the laptop was supplied with signed Windows 10 drivers.

Since Nehalem was released in 2008, I've seen some individuals reference 2009+ as the rule of thumb. However, my Core 2 Duo E7500 was a 2009 CPU, and likely does not support POPCNT. This prompted me to look into Nehalem, and the bulk of the Wikipedia article is Xeon chips, prompting me to look for another indicator. SSE4.2 being the clearest indicator.

The Core 2 Duo E7500 did receive Windows 10 driver updates during its extended life span, and has been stable with Windows 11 up until 24H2. I am holding off updating because of the high likelihood that the 2009 computer will not boot.

2011 sits well with me so far as a pretty solid rule of thumb.

[bidulless]

WolfEisberg eredeti hozzászólása:

Bypassing the requirement makes the system extremely more likely to be unstable. Haven't seen a PC yet that isn't unstable by installing W11 while not meeting all the requirements. SO that isn't even a valid suggestion to make.

hello

i am agree with you , bypassing system req is not a very good solution even if it's , till now, still working for most of people who had choosen this path.
No one know if future iteration of the system and update witll take care of this requierement and so stop offering you update or worst, will stop working after some update.
I do not think it ever happened on the os side , but by experience, i know it allready happen on the gaming world.

[Princess Luna]

Same as now - some whinig, Win 11/12 fanboys and defenders, some linux users, clowns who will want to "sue someone for abandoning W10 support.
Buy popcorn in advance.

[CJM]

bidulless eredeti hozzászólása:

and so stop offering you update or worst, will stop working after some update.

This is the existing problem, regardless.

Windows 10 will reach its "End of Life" on "Oct 14, 2025". Windows 10 has essentially already stopped updating.

Legacy support for Windows 10 will be dropped at some point in the future. Windows 11 23H2 will be end of life as of "Nov 11, 2025".

The TPM 2.0 requirement of Windows 11 was drafted in 2015 (ISO/IEC 11889:2015), published in 2016, and reportedly "Released" in 2019.

Used and "Off-Lease" systems which support TPM 2.0 have hardly hit the market, making cost effective solutions hard to come by. Furthermore, COVID era lock-downs, scalping, and inflation may have hindered the adoption of TPM 2.0 technologies, further delaying availability of hardware in the used market.

2019 Release Date Source: https://www.ionos.com/digitalguide/server/configuration/trusted-platform-module-20/

Windows 11 will reach "End of Life" in 2031.

Princess Luna eredeti hozzászólása:

Same as now - some whinig, Win 11/12 fanboys and defenders, some linux users, clowns who will want to "sue someone for abandoning W10 support.
Buy popcorn in advance.

Windows 7 was released in an era of Windows XP compatibility and DirectX 9.0c. Proton wasn't a generally mainstream option for cost conscious consumers. There was great concern about losing access to a wealth of content due to backwards compatibility issues. Proton does help to alleviate those concerns somewhat, with often better backwards compatibility to the XP/Vista/7/8 era.

Windows 10 and Windows 11 are thus far both heavily centered on DirectX 11 and DirectX 12 compatibility. Video game wise, these are essentially the same OS. Hardware requirements, they are essentially the same OS, outside of the TPM 2.0 module which has essentially required a brand new computer.

Imagine if you had to buy a Radeon 7900 XTX in order to play Tomb Raider 2013, while flipping burgers for a living. There is very poor alignment with regards to the TPM requirements.

Windows XP/Vista/7/8 was a loss of software. Windows 10 will be a cost of hardware issue.

[Phénomènes Mystiques]

Why would the BIOS block Win11? If the CPU supports secure boot, TPM 2.0, and UEFI - even if Microsoft says it is "incompatible" it still is because this x370 - Ryzen 7 1800x is not listed as compatible but it can upgrade to Win11 and receive not only Win updates, but also security updates.

If the system does not take security updates for Win11, then yes, it is not compatible but why would a BIOS block that, I never seen it. Hell, ASRock AM4 motherboards can handle AM5 chips.

[AntiGrieferGames]

Try buying DRM-Free Games, those still works after steam support end (And im pretty sure it works steam after windows 10 end of support on steam)

When browser latestr support drop on win 10, use supermium (Which worked on windows 7) or fork of firefox based browsers that usese the latest version of older operating systems.

[CJM]

Wynters eredeti hozzászólása:

Why would the BIOS block Win11? If the CPU supports secure boot, TPM 2.0, and UEFI

Have you tried getting 60 FPS at 4k under Linux?

TPM 2.0 seems to offer very little to the user with regards to functionality. It seems to serve more of an Antivirus or Digital Rights Management function. Serving most as a means of artificially handicapping or crippling a device's functionality.

TPM 2.0 stuffs may result in a non-booting system should it be configured in a manner that is not compliant. Who decides what is compliant? Who owns the device?

[bidulless]

AntiGrieferGames eredeti hozzászólása:

Try buying DRM-Free Games, those still works after steam support end (And im pretty sure it works steam after windows 10 end of support on steam)

When browser latestr support drop on win 10, use supermium (Which worked on windows 7) or fork of firefox based browsers that usese the latest version of older operating systems.

hello

Humm little correction if you want xd
Supernium like thorium is a fork of chromium not firefox , if you want to use a fork of firefox , use waterfox , r3dfox , palemooon, floorp or Mercury

[bidulless]

CJM eredeti hozzászólása:

Who decides what is compliant? Who owns the device?

Hello

Good point..

[AntiGrieferGames]

bidulless eredeti hozzászólása:

AntiGrieferGames eredeti hozzászólása:

Try buying DRM-Free Games, those still works after steam support end (And im pretty sure it works steam after windows 10 end of support on steam)

When browser latestr support drop on win 10, use supermium (Which worked on windows 7) or fork of firefox based browsers that usese the latest version of older operating systems.

hello

Humm little correction if you want xd
Supernium like thorium is a fork of chromium not firefox , if you want to use a fork of firefox , use waterfox , r3dfox , palemooon or floorp

The Dev planned to fork newest firefox to SuperFox after ESR 115 ended for older operating systems.
And i know Supermium are chromium fork, to make older system work again.