My issues with Valve refusing any support for legacy operating systems.

[KingKrouch]

To people just reading the title of the post and making broad assumptions, hear me out before you say something entirely in bad faith and braindead in the comments in per-typical Steam forum user fashion:

In one hand, I don't get why people are trying to run more recent games on Windows 7. It's stupid to be using Windows 7 for modern games when modern GPUs don't even support W7 anymore, and the last Radeon cards to officially support it was the 6900XT. You can't even use USB devices on more recent motherboards without modified installer images for W7, and even then stuff like Ethernet will require a older USB ethernet adapter to function.

For modern games though, your only real options are Windows 11 or Linux (Which while having some quirks is almost in a state where it's easier to use than W11), but it's absolutely crazy how predatory companies have been being regarding digital stuff. Before any of the LimitedRunGames and PheonixResale fanboys virtue signal about physical copies while coping over the fact that they threw their money into a void buying a GameCube era game and Nintendo doesn't see any of that money still, this is not about you, back off.

But it's crazy how Microsoft can prevent people from downloading older versions of games they legally bought on the Xbox 360 (I.E: Skullgirls), Sony can pull purchases of movies that people already bought, and Nintendo does what they do about the eShop, companies can completely alter game content post-launch (I.E: Superhot VR) with absolutely zero way to keep on your current copy without either using SteamCMD or resorting to piracy. Valve completely disabled the option to disable game updates. Valve doing this stuff too and outright endorsing game publishers and developers to do this crap too paints a very bad picture and is terrible optics as they are generally considered one of the more pro-consumer of the bunch. People bring up consoles discontinuing online services as a bad thing, but excuse Valve locking people out of their games?

I personally wish Valve would have a lite Steam client with the Chromium stuff stripped out that could run on legacy operating systems, simply for older games that don't work right under modern Windows or even Proton. I'm sure that most people on those kinds of setups would use a mobile device or something to buy Steam games from instead of an insecure operating system. There's plenty of places and hardware that can't run modern versions of Windows, even if the hardware itself is fine enough for playing old games. Hell, even having a webpage to grab DRM free versions of older games past a certain date would be nice, as Valve themselves tried to say that if Steam ever went down that users would still have a way to download their games. These same game publishers would be pissed either way. So what's the excuse?

Having to consult the PCGaming Wiki for older games to fix general issues, is such a pain in the ass for older games sometimes, and I've been working to put together a GPU passthrough VirtIO VMs running Windows 98 SE and XP with a GeForce 6 series GPU and a Sound Blaster card from that era for that reason. The Legacy of Kain Soul Reaver is something that doesn't really work right without tweaks for modern operating systems that is still sold as-is on Steam. Battlefield 2 has strange compatibility issues with Proton if you want working spatial audio. Valve's own games have completely busted spatial audio on modern builds and operating systems. Windows Compatibility Mode is far from perfect, even if software compatibility on Windows goes pretty far into the past (setting aside 16-bit applications). Plenty of older games don't have the liberty of official patches to fix issues.

Be better than this Valve. Your selective quality control almost always targeting anime games that still got ESRB ratings just fine (cope australians and terminally online twitter/reddit marxists), and your lack of quality control on anything else (Like allowing constantly busted PC ports or scams like The Day Before) on your store is bad enough.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

I don't think you want to be doing any kind of pirating as far as Steam is concerned, unless you want to get every account that you own, restricted.

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4F62-35F9-F395-5C23

But I guess you think that they can't enforce that either?

GoG is the same as Steam and every other digital distribution platform. You are purchasing a license. You do not own the game and they can enforce this anytime they like.

https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/212632089-GOG-User-Agreement?product=gog

Publicado originalmente por GOG License:

2.1 We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.

[KingKrouch]

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

I don't think you want to be doing any kind of pirating as far as Steam is concerned, unless you want to get every account that you own, restricted.

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4F62-35F9-F395-5C23

But I guess you should think that they can't enforce that either?

GoG is the same as Steam and every other digital distribution platform. You are purchasing a license. You do not own the game and they can enforce this anytime they like.

https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/212632089-GOG-User-Agreement?product=gog

Publicado originalmente por GOG License:

2.1 We give you and other GOG users the personal right (known legally as a 'licence') to use GOG services and to download, access and/or stream (depending on the content) and use GOG content. This licence is for your personal use. We can stop or suspend this licence in some situations, which are explained later on.

You can download the game with the installer completely DRM free from their website and use it offline on literally any machine you want. You can even keep a backup of it, and rip it to a DVD if you want. It's your copy to keep anywhere you want for your own personal use. Granted, the software license thing still applies as it's a per-account thing, but that's a completely different scenario IF you have full control over where you install the game, rather than having a client decide that for you. They also update the installers. Hitman 2 was the only game where you could argue this applies, but for everything else, it works fine without the license, much like how console gaming used to be. You completely missed the point, and just pulled something completely arbitrary (as a legal protection no less, much in the same way software policies have a "no reverse engineering" clause despite plenty of games having mod support despite not being officially supported). GOG's only problem is that game developers aren't supporting it nearly enough, and their rate of getting old games on there has been slow to say the least, and thus, it will lose to Steam by default.

Also, I was not advocating for or admitting to piracy. I was just saying that as Gabe Newell himself said "Piracy is a service problem" and that you have to provide a better service than the software pirates. In this case, you could make the argument that software pirates are doing a better job, especially with delisted games that aren't legally sold anymore and are effectively abandonware. Stop the concern trolling and stop being dense.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Publicado originalmente por KingKrouch:

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

I don't think you want to be doing any kind of pirating as far as Steam is concerned, unless you want to get every account that you own, restricted.

https://help.steampowered.com/en/faqs/view/4F62-35F9-F395-5C23

But I guess you should think that they can't enforce that either?

GoG is the same as Steam and every other digital distribution platform. You are purchasing a license. You do not own the game and they can enforce this anytime they like.

https://support.gog.com/hc/en-us/articles/212632089-GOG-User-Agreement?product=gog

You can download the game with the installer completely DRM free from their website and use it offline on literally any machine you want. You can even keep a backup of it, and rip it to a DVD if you want. It's your copy to keep anywhere you want for your own personal use. Granted, the software license thing still applies as it's a per-account thing, but that's a completely different scenario IF you have full control over where you install the game, rather than having a client decide that for you. They also update the installers. Hitman 2 was the only game where you could argue this applies, but for everything else, it works fine without the license, much like how console gaming used to be. You completely missed the point.

Also, I was not advocating for or admitting to piracy. Stop the concern trolling.

None of that changes the fact that you don't own the game. Game ownership ended in the '70s and you guys are just now realizing it?

Disagreeing with your point of view, is not trolling.

They aren't going to keep supporting Windows 7. If you want to go complain to somebody, how about complaining to Microsoft because they dropped support before Valve did, in 2020.

I don't see anyone gathering pitchforks and torches to storm Microsoft HQ though. Or raging on their forums. Why? Because they'd close the threads and just start banning people.

Operating systems have a life, and then they die. It's a thing.

Valve supported Windows 7, 3 years longer than Microsoft did and they created the damn thing.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Actually, 4 years.

[Seraphita]

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

Actually, 4 years.

January 2020 so you're right. Whole 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023, soon in Jan 2024. :)

[KingKrouch]

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

None of that changes the fact that you don't own the game. Game ownership ended in the '70s and you guys are just now realizing it?

Disagreeing with your point of view, is not trolling.

The 70's was when the Atari 2600 and Magnavox Odyssey was a thing, back when physical media was first a thing for games rather than full-blown hardware dedicated for one game (like Pong). This doesn't sound coherent on paper.

You are intentionally being dense about it and making broad generalizations and bad faith arguments about what I said to push an agenda. That is concern trolling.

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

They aren't going to keep supporting Windows 7. If you want to go complain to somebody, how about complaining to Microsoft because they dropped support before Valve did, in 2020.

I don't see anyone gathering pitchforks and torches to storm Microsoft HQ though. Or raging on their forums. Why? Because they'd close the threads and just start banning people.

Operating systems have a life, and then they die. It's a thing.

Valve supported Windows 7, 3 years longer than Microsoft did and they created the damn thing.

Not the issue, you never read what I said. The issue is far greater than just Windows 7, and that they sell games that don't function on new hardware or operating systems without consulting a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ community wiki (and also installing ten trillion workaround mods that conflict with each other) first. That's about as bad as selling a game on Steam without the executable to launch it. This issue could be solved if they approached the situation like GOG, since they don't want to do a lite client for legacy systems and half the people here talk about ♥♥♥♥ like they ever touched a single line of code.

Stop making excuses for the 8 billion dollar company. Community awards, the normalization of joke reviews, and the detriment they had towards healthy discourse on the Steam forums and reviews was a mistake. Go back to consoles if you want to make pea-brained arguments like this. Modern gaming sucks now thanks to people like you.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Yes, so where is this disdain for Microsoft?

Care to chime in on that one OP? How exactly is it Valves fault? If Windows 7 was still supported by Microsoft, it would still be supported by Valve and every other digital distribution system, as far as gaming.

Yes they are dropping it, Epic and EA are and anyone else who hasn't dropped it, will eventually.

[Komarimaru]

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

Publicado originalmente por KingKrouch:

You can download the game with the installer completely DRM free from their website and use it offline on literally any machine you want. You can even keep a backup of it, and rip it to a DVD if you want. It's your copy to keep anywhere you want for your own personal use. Granted, the software license thing still applies as it's a per-account thing, but that's a completely different scenario IF you have full control over where you install the game, rather than having a client decide that for you. They also update the installers. Hitman 2 was the only game where you could argue this applies, but for everything else, it works fine without the license, much like how console gaming used to be. You completely missed the point.

Also, I was not advocating for or admitting to piracy. Stop the concern trolling.

None of that changes the fact that you don't own the game. Game ownership ended in the '70s and you guys are just now realizing it?

Disagreeing with your point of view, is not trolling.

They aren't going to keep supporting Windows 7. If you want to go complain to somebody, how about complaining to Microsoft because they dropped support before Valve did, in 2020.

I don't see anyone gathering pitchforks and torches to storm Microsoft HQ though. Or raging on their forums. Why? Because they'd close the threads and just start banning people.

Operating systems have a life, and then they die. It's a thing.

Valve supported Windows 7, 3 years longer than Microsoft did and they created the damn thing.

Close! Licenses started in 1710 in Britain! Many forget that Licensing is hand in hand with Copyright. Mostly to prevent book piracy of all things!

Now, software licensing, started in 1966, from IBM. Source here for people who want to read up on it.
https://www.create.ac.uk/blog/2018/11/14/the-first-software-licensing-agreement-and-its-relationship-with-copyright-law/

So, ya... Software Licensing has been a thing now, for almost 60 years, go figure. Pretty much the entire history of Software existing!

I know you probably know this btw. But, figured would post it for the luddites of the world so they could be better educated on the subject.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

Publicado originalmente por KingKrouch:

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

None of that changes the fact that you don't own the game. Game ownership ended in the '70s and you guys are just now realizing it?

Disagreeing with your point of view, is not trolling.

The 70's was when the Atari 2600 and Magnavox Odyssey was a thing, back when physical media was first a thing for games rather than full-blown hardware dedicated for one game (like Pong). This doesn't sound coherent on paper.

You are intentionally being dense about it and making broad generalizations and bad faith arguments about what I said to push an agenda. That is concern trolling.

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

They aren't going to keep supporting Windows 7. If you want to go complain to somebody, how about complaining to Microsoft because they dropped support before Valve did, in 2020.

I don't see anyone gathering pitchforks and torches to storm Microsoft HQ though. Or raging on their forums. Why? Because they'd close the threads and just start banning people.

Operating systems have a life, and then they die. It's a thing.

Valve supported Windows 7, 3 years longer than Microsoft did and they created the damn thing.

Not the issue, you never read what I said. The issue is far greater than just Windows 7, and that they sell games that don't function on new hardware or operating systems without consulting a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ community wiki (and also installing ten trillion workaround mods that conflict with each other) first. That's about as bad as selling a game on Steam without the executable to launch it. This issue could be solved if they approached the situation like GOG, since they don't want to do a lite client for legacy systems and half the people here talk about ♥♥♥♥ like they ever touched a single line of code.

Stop making excuses for the 8 billion dollar company. Community awards, the normalization of joke reviews, and the detriment they had towards healthy discourse on the Steam forums and reviews was a mistake. Go back to consoles if you want to make pea-brained arguments like this. Modern gaming sucks now thanks to people like you.

You're talking to someone who is 51 years old so I am well aware when it all started. I've literally been gaming, since I was 7 years old.

You can conjure up all the little excuses that you think are valid as to why they should keep supporting these dinosaurs, but it isn't going to do any good. It didn't do any good when people using Windows XP and Windows Vista made threads either. Support was still dropped.

You're just another user who thinks that Valve somehow reads these forums. They are community-based, which means that you're conversing with no one else but other Steam users. Constantly making Windows 7 threads are not going to get their attention either. This also happened when Windows XP and Windows Vista announcements were made.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

In fact, I would venture to say that once support finally does drop, any of these new threads will just be locked due to redundancy. That's exactly what happened when XP and Vista were dropped.

[Komarimaru]

Yikes, why do they always resort to insults?

First the false claims of jumping through hoops to get older games to work, when in reality it takes seconds. I've even shown how to run 16bit era games on Windows 10 and 11, with zero issues.

Everything that worked on Windows 7, I can run on 10 and 11. Everything that worked on XP, I can run on 10 and 11 but stick to my Retro Rig due to 4:3 ratio for a lot of them. Same for my Windows 3.X and DOS games, Retro rig again mostly due to 4:3 and prefer native CRT output, but can easily run on Windows 10 and 11.

I've shown how to run Securerom and Safedisc games on Windows 10 and 11, if want to risk it. Playing Heavy Metal FAKK2 even to prove it.

These false claims of games not working, is just ignorance. These claims of demanding a LIVE SERVICE PLATFORM to support legacy Operating Systems, is laughable at best. No store does, EA tried and it was a failure their end to stopped it.

All platforms are dropping Windows 7 support, or already have begun to.

[C²C^Guyver |NZB|]

No one can ever explain this part of the issue. Microsoft dropped support for Windows 7 first.

Then people say "Well Microsoft didn't take away access of my games." No, you're right. What they did is far worse. They stopped supporting the very thing that you need to make those games run or at least run properly. However, strangely, this still remains Valves' fault and no one else's.

[Seraphita]

Publicado originalmente por C²C^Guyver |NZB|:

No one can ever explain this part of the issue. Microsoft dropped support for Windows 7 first.

Then people say well Microsoft didn't take away access of my games. No you're right. What they did is far worse. They stopped supporting the very thing that you need to make those games run or at least run properly. However, strangely this still remains Valves' fault and no one else's.

It's because it's anti-valve propaganda. Like yes, we should not blindly defend rich corps but we must still get facts straight. This is why people repeat "Windows 7 is dead." because it happened at the hand of microsoft. Valve is only keeping up with OS so Win10 and 11.

[KingKrouch]

Publicado originalmente por Komarimaru:

Yikes, why do they always resort to insults?

First the false claims of jumping through hoops to get older games to work, when in reality it takes seconds. I've even shown how to run 16bit era games on Windows 10 and 11, with zero issues.

Everything that worked on Windows 7, I can run on 10 and 11. Everything that worked on XP, I can run on 10 and 11 but stick to my Retro Rig due to 4:3 ratio for a lot of them. Same for my Windows 3.X and DOS games, Retro rig again mostly due to 4:3 and prefer native CRT output, but can easily run on Windows 10 and 11.

I've shown how to run Securerom and Safedisc games on Windows 10 and 11, if want to risk it. Playing Heavy Metal FAKK2 even to prove it.

These false claims of games not working, is just ignorance. These claims of demanding a LIVE SERVICE PLATFORM to support legacy Operating Systems, is laughable at best. No store does, EA tried and it was a failure their end to stopped it.

All platforms are dropping Windows 7 support, or already have begun to.

First off, you haven't listed any of those sources. You are making a broad assumption that if you're a YT content creator that people here are suddenly aware about what you've done.

NTVDM (that compatibility layer for 16-bit applications as you mentioned) has issues, this also doesn't take things like 3D acceleration into account. There's literally an entire video of someone spending days reverse engineering an installer for a game to get it running on modern Windows, and you're claiming that it's as easy as setting that up. Also, NTVDM is only supported on 32-Bit Windows. Running anything 16-Bit in WINE or Proton on Linux will just redirect it to DosBox or tell you to install it. NTVDMx64 is a fork of that for 64-Bit Windows, but then again, you're dealing with a third-party fix AND it only supports AdLib audio.

Plenty of older games don't work with modern resolutions unless you spend the time to hex edit the executable or download a mod, which in that case, the game is still busted on modern operating systems. Prepare to also do a dozen different per-application workarounds if the game doesn't play nice with your modern display or controllers either, which is more of an endorsement of the Steam Deck than anything. You basically need driver workarounds for certain games that don't scale properly or use disgusting crap like fullscreen exclusive mode which switches the display resolution to something it doesn't support. I don't even think that 640x480 or anything lower is properly recognized by Windows 11 as a valid screen resolutiona anymore.

Games for Windows Live stuff is completely busted, stuff with SecuROM, StarForce, and SafeDisk refuse to run on Windows 10 or 11 unless you disable core isolation and disable driver signing, which in that case leaves a huge security hole in your system. Weren't people just getting mad at the Naraka Bladepoint developers for suggesting people to disable system essential security features to get their anti-cheat working.

Most games with spatial audio just don't work properly on Windows 10/11 unless you use a modified version of OpenAL with HRTF support. You're objectively getting a worse experience compared to older hardware outside of faster framerates that likely are already higher than your screen's refresh rate anyways.

For an example, there's a PC port of Sonic Heroes, and yet most people don't want to mess with that, the separate modloader, noCD patches for the game, or the hell of setting up mods to make it run properly, when Dolphin is right there for the GC version that's way easier to set up. If you need to have forsight and days of research to fix a problem with an older game, chances are someone who isn't as inclined would think it's a waste of time.

I'm just saying that people completely gloss over the many problems with running older software on Windows, and just make the broad assumption that Windows is backwards compatible with all software when Microsoft has fired their QA team and the last time they actually put an effort into backwards compatibility (outside of just keeping old APIs and just creating new ones under Ex if they needed to fix an issue) was with Windows 95/98.

Granted, the mess of software compatibility isn't Valve's fault, but the way they're approaching the issue is just with pure apathy. Much like anything else outside of them working on a shiny new pet project (like their hardware efforts).

And if having to consult a community wiki (that most people probably won't know exists) every time I buy a new game or even an older game that's on sale is the outcome of modern gaming and this "all digital" future we are going towards, maybe I'd rather not be a part of gaming because of how bad it's gotten.

[Paratech2008]

Apple dropped all 32 bit support. If Apple can do that what can't Microsoft and Valve do?