Am I the only one who thinks valve is pretty terrible at making a 'whole package' game?

[P R O P H Y L A X I S]

I want to preface by saying these 3 games are CLOSE to being amazing, but there ALWAYS has to be something massively screwed up with their games.

Dota 2 has the worthless social credit score that has helped 0 people, made 0 people improve their behavior and actually; if anything, just encourages sociopaths to play so they can hurt people into the future with their report (name another game that lets sociopaths hurt people into the future, you literally ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ cant name a game that does this other than dota).

TF2 has random crits which help no one and just add ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ into the game.

CS2 will likely always have zero new maps coming out given CSGOs map release schedule (or lack thereof). We have the same maps weve been playing on for the past 20 years.. meanwhile every single other AAA FPS game gets new maps CONSTANTLY to keep the game fresh.

Not to mention subtic screws up the game so amazingly hard like giving people ~1 second EXTRA peekers advantage than what they would have had in CSGO. Literally today I peeked out, walked back behind a brick wall while shooting and got a kill on someone thru about 15 feet of concrete.

And my super beautiful knife I worked hard to get, in CSGO was sapphire, a gorgeous purple color. Now its not even purple? Like.. ???? Some muddy blue. It looks like I have some doppler phase instead of the knife I actually bought on purpose to match the color of my gloves.

Honestly Im losing faith in Valve entirely. This type of ♥♥♥♥ makes me want to straight give up gaming all together.

Games have really taken a nose dive into mediocrity as of late. Pretty sad Halo 2 was likely the last truly 'god tier' game I will ever play and that game came out soooooo long ago.

SMH.

So depressing.

[BJWyler]

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

Цитата допису ReBoot:

Play different games, problem solved. I, for example, consider the whole CS series a colossal waste of time with a ridiculous joke of recoil "simulation". So I play something else, problem sovled.

I like competitive games though. Have you found any hidden gem competitive games?

Every game has some huge flaw. I was curious about Tarkov till I learned how its infested with hackers. Its always something.

Maybe its time to just retire this hobby and smash my computer. ♥♥♥♥ it.

The thing is, what may be a hidden gem to one person, is not to another. Personally, Atlas Reactor was my favorite competitive game. I thought it was as well balanced and interesting as you can get. It's no longer around. I love to dabble in Rocket League, despite how frustratingly noobish my skills are at the game. theHunter Classic has a very serious competitive side to it, but I find a lot of the playerbase to be needlessly elitist.

Again, it's all subjective. You may be over the moon with a 128 tic server, but it may not make any bit of difference to someone else. Wonky? My goodness, I don't think I've played a game where I didn't have at least one wonky thing in it. The sad fact of life is that you will never find an online game that is free from hackers or cheaters. Like a perfectly balanced PvP game, it's simply the impossible dream.

At the end of the day, you have to weigh the negatives against the positives and decide if the former is enough of a hindrance to the latter to make the game unenjoyable. And most importantly of all, you can't sweat the small stuff. If someone continues to let the little nagging things feel like a mountain of issues, then the real problem does not lie with the game.

[P R O P H Y L A X I S]

Цитата допису Malfunctioning Robot:

Welcome to reality, where the metric for whether a problem is a problem is not how loud people complain, but whether they actually take other actions on it.

Pretty much applies to literally everything in life. There's a reason talk doesn't get ANYTHING done in any aspect of life.

Laws, policies, engineering. Talk doesn't change them. Hell most of them don't change unless they affect someones bottom line because people aren't paying or people start dying.

You can not like it, but thats how the world works.

Logically your posts make no sense.

Being anti-feedback is insane. Pretending someones feedback doesnt matter 'as long as they still play' makes literal no sense whatsoever.

If anything the feedback from people who are.. playing your game.. should matter MORE; not less.

[P R O P H Y L A X I S]

Цитата допису BJWyler:

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

I like competitive games though. Have you found any hidden gem competitive games?

Every game has some huge flaw. I was curious about Tarkov till I learned how its infested with hackers. Its always something.

Maybe its time to just retire this hobby and smash my computer. ♥♥♥♥ it.

The thing is, what may be a hidden gem to one person, is not to another. Personally, Atlas Reactor was my favorite competitive game. I thought it was as well balanced and interesting as you can get. It's no longer around. I love to dabble in Rocket League, despite how frustratingly noobish my skills are at the game. theHunter Classic has a very serious competitive side to it, but I find a lot of the playerbase to be needlessly elitist.

Again, it's all subjective. You may be over the moon with a 128 tic server, but it may not make any bit of difference to someone else. Wonky? My goodness, I don't think I've played a game where I didn't have at least one wonky thing in it. The sad fact of life is that you will never find an online game that is free from hackers or cheaters. Like a perfectly balanced PvP game, it's simply the impossible dream.

At the end of the day, you have to weigh the negatives against the positives and decide if the former is enough of a hindrance to the latter to make the game unenjoyable. And most importantly of all, you can't sweat the small stuff. If someone continues to let the little nagging things feel like a mountain of issues, then the real problem does not lie with the game.

No, I def hear you. Its just frustrating watching some games make it to 9/10 of the way towards being truly godly and incredible; but watching them fall flat on their face because.. valve doesnt listen.

Some things should be obvious, too. Like behav score in dota 2 has been broken since launch day 1 like a decade ago. People post about it EVERY day MULTIPLE times per day and have been doing so for A DECADE. There has never been a day or even dare I say even a single hour where behavior score wasnt being complained about.. for a decade.

At some point it just looks embarrassing.

[Malfunctioning Robot]

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

Цитата допису Malfunctioning Robot:

Welcome to reality, where the metric for whether a problem is a problem is not how loud people complain, but whether they actually take other actions on it.

Pretty much applies to literally everything in life. There's a reason talk doesn't get ANYTHING done in any aspect of life.

Laws, policies, engineering. Talk doesn't change them. Hell most of them don't change unless they affect someones bottom line because people aren't paying or people start dying.

You can not like it, but thats how the world works.

Logically your posts make no sense.

Being anti-feedback is insane. Pretending someones feedback doesnt matter 'as long as they still play' makes literal no sense whatsoever.

If anything the feedback from people who are.. playing your game.. should matter MORE; not less.

Must be a reading comprehension issue, because I've never said I'm antifeedback. I've just pointed out which feedback people care about. It's not complaints, its the actions people take, which is actual IMPACTFUL feedback.

People still playing the game is the feedback that matters. The idiom "actions speak louder than words" is a truism for a reason.

[Crazy Tiger]

No such thing as a "whole package" that is one-size-fits-all. People are all different with different tastes and preferences. What is a "whole package" for you is "annoying mess" for someone else.

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

If anything the feedback from people who are.. playing your game.. should matter MORE; not less.

In an idealistic world, sure. In reality, not so much. People who simply keep on playing actually are downplaying their own feedback. After all, that indicates that it's "good enough". And yes, that is a way that companies look at statistics.

[BJWyler]

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

Цитата допису Malfunctioning Robot:

If they keep playing, then yes. talk is cheap, actions speak louder. And gamers are notoriously idiotic in their complaining.

Feedback isnt offensive. True friends give feedback to each other.

Answer the question, though. People complain about the same issue for multiple times per day for A DECADE: Do you fix the problem or just let them talk into the wind?

It all depends. At the end of the day, when a developer has a vision for their game and mechanics, it's their vision and they should stick to it.

Again, you are projecting something that may not in fact be reality. Just because a portion of the playerbase complains about a problem on the forums for an extended period of time does not mean that it is in fact a problem for the majority of the playerbase.

Giving constructive feedback and criticism is fine - and you won't find a good developer worth their salt who doesn't want that type of feedback. But unfortunately, the gaming community as a general whole really doesn't understand the concept of being able to offer constructive feedback and criticism.

Plus, like I said before, you can't please everyone, nor should you try:

Player A: I really enjoy playing Archetype Warrior. I think you've made a well rounded and balanced mechanic. However, I think that the Weapon Axe is underpowered in certain situations when used against Archetype Monk, with their Protection Shield. I think Archetype Warrior needs a buff and Archetype Monk needs a nerf.

Player B: I really enjoy playing Archetype Monk. I think you've made a well rounded and balanced mechanic. However, I think that the Protection Shield is underpowered in certain situations when used against Archetype Warrior, with their Weapon Axe. I think Archetype Monk needs a buff and Archetype Warrior needs a nerf.

See what I mean?

[BJWyler]

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

No, I def hear you. Its just frustrating watching some games make it to 9/10 of the way towards being truly godly and incredible; but watching them fall flat on their face because.. valve doesnt listen.

But the point you are missing: Is it because the devs do not listen, or that the players' expectations aren't managed effectively?

This has been a key issue for the MMO industry for nearly two decades. And through my observations during all that time, I have often found that the issue lies with the latter and not the former.

[Crazy Tiger]

Цитата допису BJWyler:

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

No, I def hear you. Its just frustrating watching some games make it to 9/10 of the way towards being truly godly and incredible; but watching them fall flat on their face because.. valve doesnt listen.

But the point you are missing: Is it because the devs do not listen, or that the players' expectations aren't managed effectively?

This has been a key issue for the MMO industry for nearly two decades. And through my observations during all that time, I have often found that the issue lies with the latter and not the former.

Something I've seen in the past in the online COH community as well. All kinds of balance changes kept getting requested by a group of players. Changes that would be ok with online MP rush strategies, but not with the way the AI was in SP. Most changes were not made.

As you said: Is it because the developer didn't listen or because some players had wrong expectations? It's the latter.
A risk developers run into when listening to much to certrain players is that they actually alienate a larger part of their userbase. That trade-off rarely is worth it.

[P R O P H Y L A X I S]

Цитата допису Malfunctioning Robot:

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

Logically your posts make no sense.

Being anti-feedback is insane. Pretending someones feedback doesnt matter 'as long as they still play' makes literal no sense whatsoever.

If anything the feedback from people who are.. playing your game.. should matter MORE; not less.

Must be a reading comprehension issue, because I've never said I'm antifeedback. I've just pointed out which feedback people care about. It's not complaints, its the actions people take, which is actual IMPACTFUL feedback.

People still playing the game is the feedback that matters. The idiom "actions speak louder than words" is a truism for a reason.

I gave you an example where multiple people complain about the same issue for a decade and you essentially said 'as long as they are playing it doesnt matter what they think' lol..

[P R O P H Y L A X I S]

Цитата допису BJWyler:

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

Feedback isnt offensive. True friends give feedback to each other.

Answer the question, though. People complain about the same issue for multiple times per day for A DECADE: Do you fix the problem or just let them talk into the wind?

It all depends. At the end of the day, when a developer has a vision for their game and mechanics, it's their vision and they should stick to it.

Again, you are projecting something that may not in fact be reality. Just because a portion of the playerbase complains about a problem on the forums for an extended period of time does not mean that it is in fact a problem for the majority of the playerbase.

Giving constructive feedback and criticism is fine - and you won't find a good developer worth their salt who doesn't want that type of feedback. But unfortunately, the gaming community as a general whole really doesn't understand the concept of being able to offer constructive feedback and criticism.

Plus, like I said before, you can't please everyone, nor should you try:

Player A: I really enjoy playing Archetype Warrior. I think you've made a well rounded and balanced mechanic. However, I think that the Weapon Axe is underpowered in certain situations when used against Archetype Monk, with their Protection Shield. I think Archetype Warrior needs a buff and Archetype Monk needs a nerf.

Player B: I really enjoy playing Archetype Monk. I think you've made a well rounded and balanced mechanic. However, I think that the Protection Shield is underpowered in certain situations when used against Archetype Warrior, with their Weapon Axe. I think Archetype Monk needs a buff and Archetype Warrior needs a nerf.

See what I mean?

Yes but what Im talking about is something that hurts everyone. Effects 100% of the player base. Has helped essentially no one and, if anything; has only made dota 2 worse.

Which is why you can look at any time, any day, and there will be probably MULTIPLE threads of people complaining about this issue.

Anyone who plays the game knows its ♥♥♥♥♥♥, knows its BEEN ♥♥♥♥♥♥, and pretty much has zero faith valve will ever listen or do anything to change it.

I had a few disconnects (no fault of my own), then my brother abandoned a game and it put me in the 'black hole' region of behavior score and it took me, I kid you not, probably an entire YEAR to move my behavior score back to where it should have been.

Its like valve thinks if someone steals a snickers bar they should be in prison for life. Thats how bad the system is. Not to mention it literally enables sociopath kids to hurt others *into the future* when they arent even around.

The whole system is a joke.

Sometimes youre right, its just subjective; but in this case its blatantly not if you play the game at all. Anyone who plays dota and isnt a 100% soyboy knows how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the system is.

[BJWyler]

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

Yes but what Im talking about is something that hurts everyone. Effects 100% of the player base. Has helped essentially no one and, if anything; has only made dota 2 worse.

Which is why you can look at any time, any day, and there will be probably MULTIPLE threads of people complaining about this issue.

Anyone who plays the game knows its ♥♥♥♥♥♥, knows its BEEN ♥♥♥♥♥♥, and pretty much has zero faith valve will ever listen or do anything to change it.

I had a few disconnects (no fault of my own), then my brother abandoned a game and it put me in the 'black hole' region of behavior score and it took me, I kid you not, probably an entire YEAR to move my behavior score back to where it should have been.

Its like valve thinks if someone steals a snickers bar they should be in prison for life. Thats how bad the system is. Not to mention it literally enables sociopath kids to hurt others *into the future* when they arent even around.

The whole system is a joke.

Sometimes youre right, its just subjective; but in this case its blatantly not if you play the game at all. Anyone who plays dota and isnt a 100% soyboy knows how ♥♥♥♥♥♥ the system is.

But again you are projecting your own dislike of the system on to the entire playerbase and using hyperbole and insults to try to back up your own feelings. I can guarantee you that I can can google discussions on the system right now and find people that have not had an issue with the system as it has been.

Can the system be improved? Probably. Most things, regardless of what they are, can be improved in some form or other. Is the system as bad as you are making it out to be. Again, I have no doubt that I can find opinions contradictory to yours, so I would have to say that's a hard no it is not. At the end of the day, there are plenty of online games that have such systems to one extent or another. Do they help? It's hard to say. It's not unlike that argument of how necessary a defense system is that has never been used. That argument does not consider the fact that the existence of the system in and of itself could be the reason why it was never used, and to remove it would show, in a very bad way, just how necessary it is.

No system will ever be perfect, and no system will be able to please everyone. Again, one must make the judgement on how much the system negatively affects their enjoyment of a game. Yeah, there are things that can always be better. But never forget that the other side of that is just as equally true - they can also be much worse without it.

[ReBoot]

Selection bias: those who don't hate, don't comment. Those who hate, do. Get your biases straight before using (forum) posts as a gauge.

[BJWyler]

Цитата допису ReBoot:

Selectio bias: those who don't hate, don't comment. Those who hate, do. Get your biases straight before using posts as a gauge.

This is an important thing to remember. My years in the customer service industry have only cemented the fact that those most likely to fill out a satisfaction survey are those who were the unhappiest about their satisfaction. I'm guilty of this myself, and I know how the system works. I'm more likely to fill out a survey when I didn't like something as opposed to when my expectations were met satisfactorily.

Gaming forums are no different, except in the fact that they take this mentality to more of an extreme. There is a reason why "Vocal Minority" is a household term. The vast majority of a game's playerbase will never use the forums and will simply continue to enjoy playing the game as they normally do. The vast majority will also never see "The System" as an issue because it will never affect their day to day gameplay of the game one way or another.

[Tito Shivan]

I've always liked TF2 random crits. Would probably have never spent 2k hours in the game had random crits not been a thing.

And MOBAs have always been a cesspool of toxicity. Not like LOL is any different than DOTA2 in that regard. That's why I solely play Dota against bots.

Цитата допису Prophylaxis:

I had a few disconnects (no fault of my own), then my brother abandoned a game and it put me in the 'black hole' region of behavior score and it took me, I kid you not, probably an entire YEAR to move my behavior score back to where it should have been.

From the game side, a random disconnection looks the same than you rage-pulling your network cable on purpose or killing the game process.
The game can't tell one from the other.

Цитата допису BJWyler:

At the end of the day, you have to weigh the negatives against the positives and decide if the former is enough of a hindrance to the latter to make the game unenjoyable.

Over the years I've come to know what are the negatives that make a game unenjoyable to me. And stick to the games that don't have those. Sure I will not play every game out there, but I also learnt long ago I do not need to.

[P R O P H Y L A X I S]

Цитата допису BJWyler:

Цитата допису ReBoot:

Selectio bias: those who don't hate, don't comment. Those who hate, do. Get your biases straight before using posts as a gauge.

This is an important thing to remember. My years in the customer service industry have only cemented the fact that those most likely to fill out a satisfaction survey are those who were the unhappiest about their satisfaction. I'm guilty of this myself, and I know how the system works. I'm more likely to fill out a survey when I didn't like something as opposed to when my expectations were met satisfactorily.

Gaming forums are no different, except in the fact that they take this mentality to more of an extreme. There is a reason why "Vocal Minority" is a household term. The vast majority of a game's playerbase will never use the forums and will simply continue to enjoy playing the game as they normally do. The vast majority will also never see "The System" as an issue because it will never affect their day to day gameplay of the game one way or another.

10 years. Front page of the discussion every day, multiple times per day, by multiple different people: Nothing to see here.

lol.......