Weaponizing Rules and Guidelines: Why is this allowed to happen?

[Cypher]

For the sake of privacy, I am not going to directly mention either the board, or the user in question. But a quick glance through my post history will make the who, where, and what pretty clear.

So, I've caught a few bans from a particular message board as a result of arguing with a particular user. Their SOP is to find a message board where something controversial has occurred that has aggravated the userbase, and then proceed to provoke and antagonise further until they get someone to snap, where upon they have them catch a ban for rule violations. The user has a long history of doing this: Their longest being a whole year and a half on the cyberpunk 2077 board.

I'm not entirely sure how moderation works here, or who does it(do developers assign their own moderators to a board, or is it all steam support?) But I have to wonder, at what point does the moderation team put two and two together whenever an influx of bannings occur from a particular board, and the most common denominator is a single user?

As much as I hate involving moderators in disputes, this user is blatantly baiting arguments, and borderline harassment(There are certain users they choose to focus on, and others they ignore). And yet, it's almost always people they interact with that get banned, and not the other way around.

And, the irony is not lost on me. By making this thread, I'm in violation of making a public accusation, so it'll be really interesting to see what happens when I hit post. But, I'll reiterate my question: Why are certain users allowed to weaponize the rules and guidelines?

[PocketYoda]

Originally posted by Castyles:

One of the mods for everything CDProjekt Red, on Steam, is biased af. Especially when it comes to criticism regarding anything, game-wise.

Wouldn't surprise me if that user was their friend or something.

I agree i was attacked after i brought up my feelings about a certain in game character in the cyberpunk forums and was literally attacked by a moderator there.. Then banned, for 5 years.

I would personally stay well away from those forums the moderators there are crazy, really crazy.

Luckily steam overturned the ban, i guess they too thought it was wrong.

[Cypher]

Originally posted by PocketYoda:

I agree i was attacked after i brought up my feelings about a certain game character in the cyberpunk forums and was literally attacked by a moderator there.. Then banned, for 5 years.

I would personally stay well away from those forums the moderators there are crazy, really crazy.

Luckily steam overturned the ban, i guess they too thought it was wrong.

5 years?! They might as well have just permabanned you.

[wesnef]

Originally posted by Cypher:

Originally posted by Chika Ogiue:

Hover over a post of theirs. Click the down pointing chevrons, select Block. That way, they can't provoke you into something that would get you banned. If you don't want to block them, then your best option is to exercise self control and don't engage. If you feel any of their posts are breaking rules, report them, explain why. But that's the extent of what you can do.

OK, say I block this person. That would assume they see nothing of what I post. However, what happens when I get quoted by someone who has not blocked them. Does the blocked person then see my posts via proxy?

Blocked means that you don't see their posts, not that they don't see yours.
(it'll show "Post By Blocked User" or something like that, either for entire threads of theirs or individual posts within a thread. You can still click on them to reveal it.)

And yes, you can see things posted by a blocked poster if they're quoted by someone else.

[BJWyler]

Originally posted by Castyles:

One of the mods for everything CDProjekt Red, on Steam, is biased af. Especially when it comes to criticism regarding anything, game-wise.

Wouldn't surprise me if that user was their friend or something.

And there's no doubt that this can happen. That's why I say it is best to observe a forum you are interested in first before diving in. I watched the Steam forums for quite a long while to see what the skinny minny was before deciding to become an active member. In that time I got a good feel for how moderation was handled and knew who a good amount of the regular trolls were even before I made a single post. There will always be bias when humans are involved, but one also has to be aware of the climate of the room they are in before making themselves the center of attention, because the attention you receive may not be the kind of attention you want. There are right ways and wrongs way to be critical of a project. People who tend to do things the wrong way will be moderated it for it more frequently than others. And it is absolutely a developers right to control the narrative on the spaces that they provide or themselves are given control.

Originally posted by Cypher:

I really, REALLY want to believe that. From what I've seen and learnt both on here and in the real world, it's generally the person that swings the hardest that wins.

I'm not sure where you learned that, but in my long years on this earth, I have learned that while it may be so some of the times, it is not always the case. More often than not, the Pen overcomes the might of the Sword in my experience.

Originally posted by Cypher:

This would help if the troll was relentlessly bashing a game in its message board. This troll in question white knights in defense of the game/developer/publisher whenever a controversial event happens that angers the userbase. Now what was once a forum troll becomes a useful idiot to help a moderation team clear out dissenting voices.

"war, has changed."

And like I said above, developers are going to control the narrative of their own spaces, and they have every right to do so. They need to maintain control over those spaces, and they have a right to do it as conforms to their beliefs and values. Again, "Know your audience" and "Read the room" goes a long way to avoiding moderation and being able to discuss things in a civil tone. Attitude is everything.

There have been instances in gaming forums where I was accused of being a White Knight and a Troll Hater in the same week in a game's forums. Heck, I think I can recall a time where it happened in the same day. In one thread I was begin called a White Knight, while in another thread I was ragged on as a Troll Hater. Games are an artform, and as a result, are a subjective experience. As soon as we start categorizing each other as Knights or Haters, we are already losing the plot. Sometimes we have to understand that what we think is a controversial event that angers the vast majority of the playerbase, is in fact not that big of a deal and we are in a small minority bothered by the change. Sometimes we have to accept the fact that developers have certain visions for their art that we do not share, but it is their right to have those visions and act upon them.

Originally posted by PocketYoda:

I agree i was attacked after i brought up my feelings about a certain in game character in the cyberpunk forums and was literally attacked by a moderator there.. Then banned, for 5 years.

When you poke a hornet's nest, there's a good likelihood that you will get stung.

[nullable]

Originally posted by Cypher:

Originally posted by Start_Running:

So basically, you can't stop yourself from engaging. You just can't stop putting your hand on that stove. Yeah. They aren't the problem here. You are. The fact you used the phrase 'White-Knighting" to describe it already kinda paints ye in a questionable light

Like I said: if it was only me copping bans from interacting with this user, and nobody else, then you'd be right. I am the problem.

But it's not just me that's copped bans. And this user has a long history with engaging in this kind of behaviour.

When there's suddenly an influx of bans on the same board, and they've all been from interacting with the same person on said board, at some point, the most common denominator should become obvious.

So a couple of people can't control themselves, that's still their problem. If the other user is more careful in how they express themselves, the fact that you have an ax to grind doesn't make your actions their fault. Or generate a circumstance where a moderator has to punish them to make things fair, or that user should take special care to tiptoe around you so you'll behave better.

I know what you mean though, I see trollish users all the time, and I wouldn't mind if they were banned long term. But if you shoot your mouth off and break the rules no matter what excuses you make for it, you still did it, you're still right to be penalized. Behave yourself, or face the consequences.

I mean what do you call a person who falls into a trap, that's obviously a trap?

[Mad Scientist]

Originally posted by Cypher:

OK, say I block this person. That would assume they see nothing of what I post. However, what happens when I get quoted by someone who has not blocked them. Does the blocked person then see my posts via proxy?

Blocking doesn't prevent people from seeing forum posts by you. It prevents them from communicating with you, but forum posts are just collapsed for you from a blocked person unless you hit "show". They will always be able to see your forum posts normally unless they block you.

[PocketYoda]

Originally posted by Cypher:

Originally posted by PocketYoda:

I agree i was attacked after i brought up my feelings about a certain game character in the cyberpunk forums and was literally attacked by a moderator there.. Then banned, for 5 years.

I would personally stay well away from those forums the moderators there are crazy, really crazy.

Luckily steam overturned the ban, i guess they too thought it was wrong.

5 years?! They might as well have just permabanned you.

They did, steam said i was permabanned but in my account it said 5 years.

Originally posted by BJWyler:

Originally posted by PocketYoda:

I agree i was attacked after i brought up my feelings about a certain in game character in the cyberpunk forums and was literally attacked by a moderator there.. Then banned, for 5 years.

When you poke a hornet's nest, there's a good likelihood that you will get stung.

I didn't think i had. All i said was i wished the character Claire had been a romance female instead of what the devs made her.. Boom banned..

[Haruspex]

I know it's harder than it sounds, but...

Originally posted by ReBoot:

Don't engage. Report, block, move on.

I've fallen for that kind of bait before. They provoke until you finally say something mean, and they report the mean sounding thing you said. Since the paid moderators review reports in a complete vacuum without taking any context into consideration, you'll get warned or banned.

Just, try not to take the bait, if you can help it.

[miakisfan]

Originally posted by BJWyler:

At the end of the day, each and every person needs to accept responsibility for their own actions. The vast majority of users on these forums are able to converse on a regular basis without ever having any issues. The vast majority of users in game hubs are able to use those game hubs, and even be critical of the game when necessary without ever having issues. I have been a Forum Warrior since before the days of the Flame War Follies, and have never had problems with bans.

It all comes down to simple Internet Common Sense, Forum Etiquette, and some good old fashioned Self Control. There have been Forum Trolls as long as there have been forums on the Internet. They will eventually be dealt with and get their comeuppance. The key is to do to it in an intelligent manner and not give them what they want, which is engagement.

If someone is continually having issues with being moderated in a forum space, they need to do some real self reflection and ask themselves why. And the answer is not going to be that Forum rules and guidelines have been weaponized against them. A little personal responsibility and self control goes a long way. It's also a very good idea to "know your audience." One should always observe a forum space they are interested in long before engaging to get a feel for how the community and moderation operate in that space. One should always conform one's attitude and actions to that space and not try to force the space to conform to them. What is appropriate for me and my buddies sitting around the card table is not appropriate for my kid's birthday party gathering, and neither is appropriate for a church or library setting.

It's unfortunate that we, as a society, having given birth to this special snowflakeness where everyone feels they have a right to do and say what they want whenever and wherever they want however they want to say it - without consequences. We have tried to absolve ourselves of personal responsibility and liability, and that has only lead to the toxic mess we are in now. The key has, and will always be accepting responsibility for our own words and actions and showing respect for the greater community around us.

It really couldn't be said any better than this. The best word used was the word "conform".

I normally say that creating forums was one of the worst things to ever happen, but if you want to shine a light on what they do show is how a good percentage of the people act when they aren't placed in a position where they have a face to face confrontation. They remove fear from the equation and if you want to see people grow a pair take away that fear.

The internet is the safest place for cowards.

[Lystent]

Originally posted by Haruspex:

I know it's harder than it sounds, but...

Originally posted by ReBoot:

Don't engage. Report, block, move on.

I've fallen for that kind of bait before. They provoke until you finally say something mean, and they report the mean sounding thing you said. Since the paid moderators review reports in a complete vacuum without taking any context into consideration, you'll get warned or banned.

Just, try not to take the bait, if you can help it.

I think this hits the nail on the head, but mostly where steam mods are taking the reports. Some of the time, a community hub would have a moderation team that is actually good at moderating. Turns out moderation isn't just about banning reported posters.

[Tanoomba]

Oof, I know that frustration!
People who try to push your buttons in order to get you to cross a line can be a huge pain. Here are a few techniques I use to try to avoid moderator action:

- Stay on topic. Sounds simple, but the more I stick to the topic being discussed and the arguments being made, the less chance I'll say anything considered reportable, let alone bannable.
- Connected to the first, but don't make it personal. If, instead of talking about the game or the criticism abut the game, you steer the topic away to discussing the user at hand, then your chances of being moderated exponentially increase. Talk about the points being made, not the user.
- Of course, and this should be obvious, avoid making insults and personal attacks. Making posts exclusively about what you don't like about a user are not only likely to get moderated, they SHOULD be moderated. Things like discussing a user's posting history make one seem like an obsessed stalker and raises red flags.
- Remember: Nobody is responsible for what you say but you. Somebody might say something that frustrates or annoys you (happens to me all the time), but you can't use that as an excuse to make rule-breaking posts.
- Also remember: If a post that frustrates or annoys you isn't breaking any rules, then there is no cause for moderator action on that post. "Why do I keep getting banned when the other guy doesn't?" doesn't hold much merit if only one of you is actually breaking the rules.
- This is a good one: Learn from your mistakes. As has been pointed out, bans rarely happen out of the blue. If you get a warning from moderation, take that warning to heart. Try to avoid posting the type of content that you already know can get you in trouble.

Hope that helps!

[Start_Running]

And just to add to what tanooba said:

- Remember . On game fiorums you are in the dev's house. You are a guest in that house. Consider your words and actions creativity.

[Cypher]

Just a few things there.....

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

- Connected to the first, but don't make it personal. If, instead of talking about the game or the criticism abut the game, you steer the topic away to discussing the user at hand, then your chances of being moderated exponentially increase. Talk about the points being made, not the user.

Fair for the most part. But there are rare instances where a particularly talented troll may start to follow one across message boards to taunt them, while still remaining outside of moderation range. You could imagine that might be hard to not take personally.

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

- Of course, and this should be obvious, avoid making insults and personal attacks. Making posts exclusively about what you don't like about a user are not only likely to get moderated, they SHOULD be moderated. Things like discussing a user's posting history make one seem like an obsessed stalker and raises red flags.

Disagree with what's bolded. One's posting history can often be a very relevant piece to a discussion. For example, knowing one's posting history can help when figuring out where a person generally stands on something, or how they debate a topic. If said user has a history of baiting arguments from outside of moderation range, then active participants and spectators should be made aware, so they know what they're getting into. Our posting records are public, and therefore SHOULD be open to scrutiny.

The rest...... I will take into consideration. Just that I come from an age of the internet where grievances suffered from a heated discussion could be vented out and talked down without running straight to the moderators.

[Tanoomba]

Originally posted by Cypher:

Fair for the most part. But there are rare instances where a particularly talented troll may start to follow one across message boards to taunt them, while still remaining outside of moderation range. You could imagine that might be hard to not take personally.

Indeed. I had a user who would argue with me regularly on a particular game's forums check to see where else I was posting just so they could engage me there, too. And while this person's posts were bad (in that they made bad-faith arguments and were illogical), they weren't rule-breaking. So what could I do?

If I felt like responding to their posts, addressing the points made on their own merits, I did so. If I felt like the posts were trollish in nature or simply not worth the frustration of trying to address, I ignored them. What I didn't do was personally attack said user and make confrontational accusations, even though I knew they had followed me just to pester me.

Incidentally, it's not uncommon for a user to subscribe to a game's forum and be notified about every new thread created in that forum. Just because you see the same poster in multiple threads, it doesn't necessarily imply they are following you in particular.

Originally posted by Cypher:

Disagree with what's bolded. One's posting history can often be a very relevant piece to a discussion. For example, knowing one's posting history can help when figuring out where a person generally stands on something, or how they debate a topic. If said user has a history of baiting arguments from outside of moderation range, then active participants and spectators should be made aware, so they know what they're getting into.

See, you've fallen into the trap of trying to make it about the user instead of what the user is saying. That's an excellent way to get (justifiably) moderated. If you believe the user is making bad-faith posts, you need to address what is being said on ts own merits. The moment you derail the discussion to focus on personal attacks, you are breaking the rules. It doesn't matter that you think someone's post history says something relevant about them or their posting habits. You are not allowed to turn a discussion about a game into a smear campaign against anoher user.

And frankly, you shouldn't have to. If the person makes bad points, you should absolutely be able to address those points and counter them with logic and reason. Trying to make a case for why a person should be dismissed altogether instead of addressing what they say is not productive or on-topic. All it does is generate conflict and prevent actual discussion from taking place.

Originally posted by Cypher:

Just that I come from an age of the internet where grievances suffered from a heated discussion could be vented out and talked down without running straight to the moderators.

A discussion board is not a venting ground. People need to behave themselves and act civilly. They should not be allowed to attack other users just because they're frustrated.

[Cypher]

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Indeed. I had a user who would argue with me regularly on a particular game's forums check to see where else I was posting just so they could engage me there, too. And while this person's posts were bad (in that they made bad-faith arguments and were illogical), they weren't rule-breaking. So what could I do?

If I felt like responding to their posts, addressing the points made on their own merits, I did so. If I felt like the posts were trollish in nature or simply not worth the frustration of trying to address, I ignored them. What I didn't do was personally attack said user and make confrontational accusations, even though I knew they had followed me just to pester me.

Surprised you even bothered with that. If this person was following you not just in single threads in a board, but to other boards as well? I'm almost certain that constitutes as stalking and/or harassment. That sounds like the kind of thing one is liable to get a community ban on.

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

Incidentally, it's not uncommon for a user to subscribe to a game's forum and be notified about every new thread created in that forum. Just because you see the same poster in multiple threads, it doesn't necessarily imply they are following you in particular.

Can't imagine why someone would want to subscribe to a whole board. I mean, a standalone thread of interest? Maybe. But a whole board? Do they really need to know every time a mouthbreather spews out a thread?

But to each their own, I guess.

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

See, you've fallen into the trap of trying to make it about the user instead of what the user is saying. That's an excellent way to get (justifiably) moderated. If you believe the user is making bad-faith posts, you need to address what is being said on ts own merits. The moment you derail the discussion to focus on personal attacks, you are breaking the rules. It doesn't matter that you think someone's post history says something relevant about them or their posting habits. You are not allowed to turn a discussion about a game into a smear campaign against anoher user.

See, I believe a person's character is just as important as their opinion. Like, there's this one guy I know on here. I disagree with them on a great many things. But, they're in my friend list because they're a decent character, and I can have healthy disagreements with them. And conversely there are people here who's opinions I do agree with, but wouldn't want to associate with because they're absolute tools.

If there's a character engaging in toxic behaviour like, say..... baiting arguments within a board of a game that's experiencing some controversy, people have a right to know before jumping in and paying the price for it. Think of it as, community service.

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

And frankly, you shouldn't have to. If the person makes bad points, you should absolutely be able to address those points and counter them with logic and reason. Trying to make a case for why a person should be dismissed altogether instead of addressing what they say is not productive or on-topic. All it does is generate conflict and prevent actual discussion from taking place.

Sadly, there are just some users where logic and reason just doesn't stick.

Originally posted by Tanoomba:

A discussion board is not a venting ground. People need to behave themselves and act civilly. They should not be allowed to attack other users just because they're frustrated.

2011 and years previous really WAS such a different time, wasn't it.


I mean, it's not like the old internet was a complete free-for-all. But we had thicker skin back then.