Petition to have Steam/Valve change wording

[vgifford]

How about if Steam/Valve changes every instance of PURCHASE to RENT when it comes to the Store Page?

Would this be a more honest representation of what we are paying for?
Would that help?

I mean, in the end, if we can't access Steam we OWN nothing right?

[Tito Shivan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

Well, when they use the word "purchase", that can mean a lot of things. You can purchase a lease. You can purchase a can of coke. "Purchase" can mean anything, and likely what has Valve, and others quite frankly (it's not just them) get away with it

You purchase a license. It's not that hard to understand.

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

It's not just an OS matter, its you can be banned, you can be shut out of customers services, the game can bricked, with no way after two hours of play to get a refund.

And that's where the 'license' part comes into play. The use of your purchase comes bundled with obligations and punishment if you don't follow the agreed terms.

[Deadweight]

Diposting pertama kali oleh bidulless:

Hello
Thanks again for all. There is one things that still bother me and that's why i allways think we do not own what we buy.

In 2019, a French court ruled [2] that Valve is violating the EUs law by not enabling people to resell their Steam games. This case is currently undergoing an appeal by Valve.

Because valve made an appeal and won this one

Yes, you can just ignore the part about french and german right to resell, it hasn't been updated with the new information and was written while it was still being appealed.

As far as it looks, this only effects your ability to resell digital goods like steam games, ebooks, etc in the EU (possibly setting precedent elsewhere). Reasoning being the obvious differences between them and physical (digital won't deteriorate, can make perfect copies, ease of supply)

Doesn't seem like it changes anything about ownership of those goods.

[xBCxRangers]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tito Shivan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

Well, when they use the word "purchase", that can mean a lot of things. You can purchase a lease. You can purchase a can of coke. "Purchase" can mean anything, and likely what has Valve, and others quite frankly (it's not just them) get away with it

You purchase a license. It's not that hard to understand.

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

It's not just an OS matter, its you can be banned, you can be shut out of customers services, the game can bricked, with no way after two hours of play to get a refund.

And that's where the 'license' part comes into play. The use of your purchase comes bundled with obligations and punishment if you don't follow the agreed terms.

Everybody purchases licenses. If you bought a Van Halen cd back in the day, you bought the license. Not the Rights to the song "Jump" which would likely cost millions.

Difference being, you "owned" the CD. You do not 'own' these games. They are leased, and all contingent o the terms of the lease. Unlike products you "own".

And another point i'd make, whenever you find a poster, stating maters like this "simple to understand", discard their opinions out of hand.

Being if it was "that" simple, there would not be pages and pages of legal gobblygook an average gamer would need to understand, over a "simple" matter..

[Orion Invictus]

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tito Shivan:

You purchase a license. It's not that hard to understand.

And that's where the 'license' part comes into play. The use of your purchase comes bundled with obligations and punishment if you don't follow the agreed terms.

Everybody purchases licenses. If you bought a Van Halen cd back in the day, you bought the license. Not the Rights to the song "Jump" which would likely cost millions.

Difference being, you "owned" the CD. You do not 'own' these games. They are leased.

Why are you comparing a medium (CD) with a product (games)?

[flobefall]

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tito Shivan:

You purchase a license. It's not that hard to understand.

And that's where the 'license' part comes into play. The use of your purchase comes bundled with obligations and punishment if you don't follow the agreed terms.

Everybody purchases licenses. If you bought a Van Halen cd back in the day, you bought the license. Not the Rights to the song "Jump" which would likely cost millions.

Difference being, you "owned" the CD. You do not 'own' these games. They are leased, and all contingent o the terms of the lease. Unlike products you "own".

The only difference?
With a CD you're buying two things:
The hard drive, the CD itself AND the licence to use the included media, the music.

Now on Steam you buy games without a physcal extra so only the licence itself remains.

[ImperatorPavel]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Orion Invictus:

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

Everybody purchases licenses. If you bought a Van Halen cd back in the day, you bought the license. Not the Rights to the song "Jump" which would likely cost millions.

Difference being, you "owned" the CD. You do not 'own' these games. They are leased.

Why are you comparing a medium (CD) with a product (games)?

Cause of the earlier comparisons in this thread to older games on physical media, probably

In an attempt to justify why you are "leasing" a game on Steam vs "owning" it on a disc.

Ignoring the fact that any media is subject to how long it can be supported.

Difference being that it's a fallacy because Valve isn't removing those games on his account (which would be what leasing is - like gamepass for example) just requiring the use of a less than 5 year old OS.

[bidulless]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Deadweight:

Diposting pertama kali oleh bidulless:

Hello
Thanks again for all. There is one things that still bother me and that's why i allways think we do not own what we buy.

In 2019, a French court ruled [2] that Valve is violating the EUs law by not enabling people to resell their Steam games. This case is currently undergoing an appeal by Valve.

Because valve made an appeal and won this one

Yes, you can just ignore the part about french and german right to resell, it hasn't been updated with the new information and was written while it was still being appealed.

As far as it looks, this only effects your ability to resell digital goods like steam games, ebooks, etc in the EU (possibly setting precedent elsewhere). Reasoning being the obvious differences between them and physical (digital won't deteriorate, can make perfect copies, ease of supply)

Doesn't seem like it changes anything about ownership of those goods.

Hello
You want to know what's weird ? i'm trying to find the source about the appeal and it conclusion but i can't find it on the tribunal 's web site .... ( https://www.cours-appel.justice.fr/paris/decisions )
there is nothing around october.2022.. strange ...
it was hard to find the source ...
https://www.dalloz.fr/documentation/Document?id=CA_PARIS_2022-10-21_2015768&ctxt=0_YSR0MD1zdGVhbcKneCRzZj1zaW1wbGUtc2VhcmNo&ctxtl=0_cyRwYWdlTnVtPTHCp3MkdHJpZGF0ZT1GYWxzZcKncyRzb3J0PSNkZWZhdWx0X0Rlc2PCp3Mkc2xOYlBhZz0yMMKncyRpc2Fibz1UcnVlwqdzJHBhZ2luZz1UcnVlwqdzJG9uZ2xldD3Cp3MkZnJlZXNjb3BlPVRydWXCp3Mkd29JUz1GYWxzZcKncyR3b1NQQ0g9RmFsc2XCp3MkZmxvd01vZGU9RmFsc2XCp3MkYnE9wqdzJHNlYXJjaExhYmVsPcKncyRzZWFyY2hDbGFzcz0%3D#texte-integral

[Deadweight]

Diposting pertama kali oleh bidulless:

Hello
You want to know what's weird ? i'm trying to find the source about the appeal and it conclusion but i can't find it on the tribunal 's web site .... ( https://www.cours-appel.justice.fr/paris/decisions )
there is nothing around october.2022.. strange ...
https://www.dalloz.fr/documentation/Document?id=CA_PARIS_2022-10-21_2015768&ctxt=0_YSR0MD1zdGVhbcKneCRzZj1zaW1wbGUtc2VhcmNo&ctxtl=0_cyRwYWdlTnVtPTHCp3MkdHJpZGF0ZT1GYWxzZcKncyRzb3J0PSNkZWZhdWx0X0Rlc2PCp3Mkc2xOYlBhZz0yMMKncyRpc2Fibz1UcnVlwqdzJHBhZ2luZz1UcnVlwqdzJG9uZ2xldD3Cp3MkZnJlZXNjb3BlPVRydWXCp3Mkd29JUz1GYWxzZcKncyR3b1NQQ0g9RmFsc2XCp3MkZmxvd01vZGU9RmFsc2XCp3MkYnE9wqdzJHNlYXJjaExhYmVsPcKncyRzZWFyY2hDbGFzcz0%3D#texte-integral]it was hard to find the source ...

Yes, it's hard to find stuff about this case right now, so good work. I can only guess because it's so recent and possible to continue (though unlikely), and I don't think there's a translation of the document anywhere yet. I don't know. It'll probably get easier to find and read about over time. I don't speak the language and am not going to rely on machine translation to read this so I can't really say anything about what's written there, sorry.

Diposting pertama kali oleh xBCxRangers:

Difference being, you "owned" the CD. You do not 'own' these games. They are leased, and all contingent o the terms of the lease. Unlike products you "own".

When you buy on Steam, it's presented as paying for a copy of a digital software. The perpetual license you're buying entitles you to that copy of the software. You're paying for a good, not a service (which is what a rental would be considered)

Steam very clearly sells games, not leases them. You're buying, not renting or leasing.
Valve themselves have said this in a court-required notice to consumers.[web.archive.org] You "buy video games" from them - they provided goods that you own after purchase, the same as one of those CDs. This is true anywhere that digital software is considered a good.

[Start_Running]

Steam Sells licenses to games. That's it m8.
You own a ticket to see the band play, you don't own the band or the venue.
You own a membership to a gym...you do not own the barbells or the rowing machine.

The simple truth is this isn't even hidden. This is right there in the agreement you agreed to when you created your steam account and that you ratify every time you make a purchase or activation on the platform.

[Deadweight]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Steam Sells licenses to games. That's it m8.

A perpetual software license (which is what Steam sells) entitles you to that copy of the software. You bought the license, and by doing that, you bought that copy of the digital software and it is your property. This is legally considered a good basically anywhere in the world, including in the US which is where Valve is based.

Once again, Valve itself has said (in a court-ordered notice to consumers) that you buy the games. This isn't debatable, it's just a fact.[web.archive.org]

This is true in any country that considers games a good, which is certainly one you live in. If you want to check if your country is one of these that considers it a good, you can search for it here.[www.wipo.int]
If your country is listed here, then the games you buy here are a Class 9 good (090829) - 'computer game software, downloadable'[www.wipo.int]

For subscription games (such as a pay-monthly MMO), this doesn't apply. Those are classified as services.

You own a ticket to see the band play, you don't own the band or the venue.

Correct - because this is a service, not a good. A better comparison would be buying a CD of the band's song. You still don't own the band or their music, because that's their IP and they hold the rights. You also don't own the rights to the CD manufacturer's IP or anything. You're licensed to your specific copy of their music on the CD and the CD itself, those are both your property.

You own a membership to a gym...you do not own the barbells or the rowing machine.

Correct - because this is a service, not a good. Your membership (subscription) to the gym does not entitle you to ownership of the gym itself, the brand, etc., or any of the goods that they own and use in providing their service. A better comparison would be if you bought one of the goods such as barbells or machines from the gym, there'd be a transfer of ownership of the license and the good.

This is how all stores work. They don't own the IPs or production rights of what they sell, they just own those specific copies of the goods and their licenses, that they can then sell to transfer ownership to the buyer, while losing their ownership of the copy/license that they sold. Something like the Steam site and client are services, but if they're selling you goods then they're obligated to provide you those goods and they can't exercise their rights over the copies they sell you after the point of sale because they've transferred ownership of that digital copy to you through the license they sold. The game copy and the perpetual license for digital software are tied together, you don't get one without the other.

The simple truth is this isn't even hidden. This is right there in the agreement you agreed to when you created your steam account and that you ratify every time you make a purchase or activation on the platform.

If the law disagrees with what the agreement says, then what the agreement says doesn't matter. This is a simple truth that has been demonstrated even on Steam already.

* tl;dr - you own the Steam games you buy *

You're free to read this, it should cover anything you might be wondering.[linustechtips.com] Bear in mind that the section about right to resell downloadable software in the EU (examples of france and germany cases for resell) is just recently outdated atm.

[Tito Shivan]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Deadweight:

* tl;dr - you own the Steam games you buy *

That still doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with them.

[RiO]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Tito Shivan:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Deadweight:

* tl;dr - you own the Steam games you buy *

That still doesn't mean you can do whatever you want with them.

Technically, it does.
It means you can do whatever you want with them, within what law allows you.
Anything in violation of the license would be a civil legal matter, not a criminal one.

However, the licensor of course is allowed to deploy means to enforce the license agreement, within what the law in turn allows them. Which includes the threat of punitive measures such as closing the licensee's account, etc.


And on both ends of the equation "what the law allows for" is different in different jurisdictions around the world.

[( ( < < <🤖> > > ) )]

"what the law allows for" is different in different jurisdictions around the world.

in the realms of this topic... is there anything that stands out that effects
steam customers specifically and differently... licensing games is what stead does all
the time all around the world..

[Start_Running]

Diposting pertama kali oleh Deadweight:

Diposting pertama kali oleh Start_Running:

Steam Sells licenses to games. That's it m8.

A perpetual software license (which is what Steam sells) entitles you to that copy of the software. You bought the license, and by doing that, you bought that copy of the digital software and it is your property. This is legally considered a good basically anywhere in the world, including in the US which is where Valve is based.

Perpetual yet revokable. And it entitles you to the USE of the software. Provided you have the ability and hardware to do so.

Diposting pertama kali oleh Deadweight:

Once again, Valve itself has said (in a court-ordered notice to consumers) that you buy the games. This isn't debatable, it's just a fact.[web.archive.org]

Because buying the license is literally the same as buying the game m8. At least as far as the software industry is concerned the two terms are fairly interchangeable.and reasonably understood to be such. You have literally always been buying licenses evertytime you've bought software. Again. Read the EULA and the SSA.

[RiO]

Diposting pertama kali oleh ragefifty50:

"what the law allows for" is different in different jurisdictions around the world.

in the realms of this topic... is there anything that stands out that effects
steam customers specifically and differently... licensing games is what stead does all
the time all around the world..

There's plenty.
And a lot of it is even called out explicitly in the Steam Subscriber Agreement, for instance.
Have a look at all the exemptions for the EU; for Germany specifically; for the UK; and for Australia.

There's also the fact that the Steam SSA explicitly mentions that where any terms in it that turn out to be only partially enforceable due to constraints of applicable law, they will still apply but only to the maximum that is enforceable.

I can tell you off the bat about one such term, which Valve plays fast and loose with:
If you close your account and you leave funds in your Steam wallet, Valve's SSA states they will not be required to refund those.

However; terms which have the object or effect of allowing the trader or supplier to retain sums paid for services not rendered, are on a black list in the annex of the EU's Unfair Contract Terms Directive. They are always deemed unfair; do not bind the consumer; and are not enforceable. Therefore the standard rules of law and contract apply, and you would be due the unspent money.