What do we own anymore? Paying customers getting screwed.

[EiiosTheria]

-Inspired by mandatory updates.
[PS search function on discussions is barely usable so i dont know if this has already been discussed or whatever, probably, but here's my word on it]


When we buy a game, do we have a right to use it as it is without adding resources?
Apparently not.

Imagine your phone detected an update and refused to boot up until it updated? oh wait thats windows 10+. Google to see all the disasters that has caused.
Imagine your expressomachine forced an update that took half an hour and ruined your morning, and when it was done it refused your pods because they were out of date and now 'not official'.
Imagine your printer wouldnt print your papers until it updates, and when its finished now the machine 'sneezes' ink on your papers?


Im here to whine. loudly.
I bought this game. I have ONE right, and that is to PLAY it.
How much is that to ask?
AND YET, if my internet router stops working suddenly or i go on a trip to a rural area (-australia) and dont go offline mode first, BAM, cant play my OFFLINE games i LEGALLY OWN for a week or more.
AND YET, if steam detects an update, it demands to update it regardless of the consequences. Maybe im soley using limited mobile data hotspot or a neibours internet and it wants to do a big update? CANT PLAY.
Maybe i read the latest update broke peoples games and i just want to play the game as i have but its too late its detected an update aaaaaaaaahhhhh. CANT PLAY.
Maybe i have mods on (that are essential) and the next update is a big feature update and i just want to play the currently installed version as long as i want? CANT PLAY.
(*Currently) Have a modded game, needed to verify fix files to fix something, but now it knows there is an update and REFUSES to let me launch it without updating. CANT PLAY.

I dont have the space to full-file-copy all games i have, and EVery time i want to play put steam in offline mode and copy-paste the old files, wait, then press play.

OR then keep steam perma offline mode, meaning i cannot buy&install new games, no achivments, no workshop MOD items IRONICALLY, and cant updates games i DO want updated ie.DST, and can not play online or multiplayer games.
That cure is worse than the affliction!



Things like this is FORCING people into p-word. (that looks stupid but its because steam has a stupid censorship rule about this TOPIC we NEED to talk about. so thanks again, steam.)

Why is it that paying customers getting so screwed?
I bought DAI, PAID for it, only to find out that i CANT play this OFFLINE game without being ONLINE. No internet? CANT PLAY GAME. (it was trash and a waste of money anyway, but still)
But what if you DONT pay for it? The people who do that get REWARDED by being able to play the game offline, as-is, anytime they want.


As a reasonable person, i am now inclined to not use steam ever again.
But ive known about this option for a long time now, and still i bought games on steam.
I care about the CREATORS and they DESERVE their money for their game, and i WANT to be a part of community and get downloadable extras (ie HD voicepacks), etc.
The creators DESERVE their money as much as i DESERVE to play get the game i paid for.
But somebody here is getting screwed no matter which option i choose, and i dont like that.
Its not the devs fault, its steam and their FECKING update forcing.

Note steams exclusive hoarding of modders/mods in the workshop, so even if i relegated to using an alternative like GOG, i might then have NO access to the majority/all mods. IE.Project zomboid.
Oh and, ofc, if you already bought zomboid on another platform your screwed on that front too, but thats for another discussion.


I am upset.
I have been happily playing a modded game for days now and actually keeping away my depression, but then needed to partially re-install and now a forced update looms. I DONT WANT TO UPDATE. LEAVE IT ALONE. DONT TOUCH. STAY.
Steam acts like a dog/cat diving for food you dropped on the kitchen floor persisting despite your demands. No way to stop em.


'just use something else/if you dont like it dont use it' doesn't apply anymore so dont tell me that.
Not for smartphones, (not for internet), not for google, not for amazon, and almost not for facebook.
Trying to 'opt-out' of these things is like pulling teeth, which is equally unsuccessful of 'fixing' this 'issue'.
If you dont like it, get used to it. If you have complaints, write them on paper then throw it in the bin. And if you dont want to fall backwards into their maliciously exploitative grasp, you gotta bend backwards avoid it. siiiiiiiigggggghhhhh. I dont want any of this drama and if it was feasible i would drop out or use alternatives. :/ I spend far too much of my life already on trying to manage/avoid these customer-aggressive things. Trying not to get screwed over is full-time job these days, and aint nobody got time for that.


Funny how play-rights have changed. When i was a child we would buy DISCS, and that would give us the right to play the game, as-is, at any time, and nothing could claw that away. (except ruining the disc)
But now Monopolistic(?) online game stores have the ability to tell you when you can and cant play the games you paid for, and dictate new requirements at any time ie.downloads.
Who gets screwed over? Paying customers.
Paying.




What options do i have? what options do we have?
What will be the future of the gaming community if people are driven away like this??
Am i being crazy and mega-over-dramatising this? (possibly, idk, im mad)


Please reply and contribute to this discussion. And dont be very mean. but a little is ok ofc.

[EiiosTheria]

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

EiiosTheria の投稿を引用：

Thank you for explaining that.

*that's part of the terms of the platform, to which you agreed.*
please refer to *'just use something else/if you dont like it dont use it' doesn't apply anymore so dont tell me that.*
Feels like thats/theyre saying 'if you dont like getting screwed over then just dont play modern games anymore' :(

*It's a licensing issue, always has been. And until that changes, the ball and power lies with platforms and product owners (developers/publishers).*
Ok. So i guess what im saying is that that sucks and i dont like and i feel like thats unnecessarily screwing over the customer.

You can always look into GoG. They offer DRM free games with offline installers that you can back up. You can back them up on an external drive and install them whenever you feel like it. Technically you don't own more than a license there either, but games being DRM-free gives some more control over what you can do with them. They don't always get the newest games soon, sometimes not at all (due to the DRM-free requirement), but they do have a decent catalog.
I have a bunch of games on there as well, though mainly older games made to work on newer systems.

It's fine to not like it, understandable even. Valve certainly could offer more options regarding updating. But it's their platform and if they don't want to do so, that is their prerogative.

My advice in such is always to look at multiple stores/platforms and use the ones that work the way you like it.

Oh wow that sounds good,
I do already have the GOG installer and some games there but i didnt know they had/did that,
Thank you very much.!

Yeah,
i am throwing a hissy that steam doesnt work the way i want it to and the way i think is right for the customer, lawful even,, i excuse/allow this because i feel trapped with limited game sellers.
I am more or less trapped depending on the game. For instance ProjectZomboid definitely is trapped on steam for access to the mods,, another thing i can greatly complain about is the workshop not allowing downloads unless you own that game on steam, the bastards. :/,, although part of it is the modders choosing to upload on steam, and exclusively on steam (well, it is the only sizeable modding community for it).
So i dont even know what or who to be mad at for what reason. ;-; >_>
Anywho at the end of the day all i can do is work with what is avaliable and make the best of it.
Though its been soothing to discuss with people, and ive gotten very useful information!

[EiiosTheria]

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

EiiosTheria の投稿を引用：

Yeah.
I dont like the insane amount of control they have over the game i paid for and how it exists on my computer and when i can and cant play it. I think thats not right.
Ohoho, yeah ive heard of things where they pull the plug and take no accountability for the paying customers. I think for example the nintendo store or something? Worst case example where the company goes under and takes all their paying customers digital merchandise with them, leaving paying customers with nothing to show for. Setups for the customer to always be on the loosing end and companies unaccountable for providing the goods they took money for isnt fair.

Yes ive heard of abandonware, games so old and derelict that they are now *practically? free. And then games very very old but still being copywright-hoarded by games sellers, like super-old DOOM or Lara croft. (I mean really just give it up already).
(I miss the now-extinct old climbing game that came with old versions of microsoft or something, i tracked down what it was but couldnt find it available anywhere anyhow.)

OH and then theres this,, i bought GTA SA on steam, then to find out that version is NOT FUNCTIONAL and the community-made functional version is avaliable for FREE online. Basically, i'd been swindled. Again. Customer gets screwed, and steam keeps on screwing.

Though i bought lord of the rings trillogy for total of 8$ today from op-shop. I must admit that doesnt feel right >_>.

DESPITE steams TOS there has to be some kind of consumer protection laws that say you MUST receive the thing you payed for.
Though that gets fuzzy for things like Cyberpunk where you have to (impossibly) define functional for something that serves fun. Like trying to return an abstract painting because it does not spark joy. or food you didnt like. you get what you get.
SO, LIKE, what if you ordered a vegitarian sandwhich and they served you a meat sandwhich? Technical edible but surely refund?? Or what if you paid for a sandwhich on your lunchbreak (implied, now) but they tell you they only make sandwhiches on wednesday and come back tomrrow?? Like wtf? Surely thats not acceptable. and yet when the video game industry does that were told to simply accept it? nO.
Amiright?

You recieved what you paid for. You paid for a liscence. That's the thing. We have zero ground to demand anything from them.

Yo,
I didnt pay for an NFT, i payed for a game.
Im pretty sure we have a legal right to (at least to an extent) receive access to said game.

[Thermal Lance]

Back some years ago I told people to not jump into that wagon and stand their ground to secure their ownership. I was laughed at and ignored like many others. Now, I just watch in amusement when people go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because their favourite game become unaccessible from one day to another.

"I told you so" come to mind. Convenience is good but more should have been done for the end-user to preserve some level of control. But, you know? The next Call of Duty dropped and nobody cared. There is nothing you can do for that when the average person dosen't care.

[Crazy Tiger]

GTA SA also works on modern machines. Or at least it does for 2 Steam friends I have that have been posting screenshots of the games in the activity feed for the past 2 weeks.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

You recieved what you paid for. You paid for a liscence. That's the thing. We have zero ground to demand anything from them.

Yup. And as long as the way licensing works doesn't change, this won't change.

OP, are you aware that Apple asks a yearly developers fee of around 100 bucks in their iOS app store (MAC store as well, probably)? And if the developer doesn't pay that, the game will not just be removed from sale, but also from the purchase list of everybody who purchased the game? So if you happen to not have the game installed, you can't even install it anymore.

As I said, it's a licensing issue

[EiiosTheria]

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Back some years ago I told people to not jump into that wagon and stand their ground to secure their ownership. I was laughed at and ignored like many others. Now, I just watch in amusement when people go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because their favourite game become unaccessible from one day to another.

"I told you so" come to mind. Convenience is good but more should have been done for the end-user to preserve some level of control. But, you know? The next Call of Duty dropped and nobody cared. There is nothing you can do for that when the average person dosen't care.

Um, i dont know what your trying to say.?
All i understood was the shotgun-spread negativity.

[Thermal Lance]

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

GTA SA also works on modern machines. Or at least it does for 2 Steam friends I have that have been posting screenshots of the games in the activity feed for the past 2 weeks.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

You recieved what you paid for. You paid for a liscence. That's the thing. We have zero ground to demand anything from them.

Yup. And as long as the way licensing works doesn't change, this won't change.

OP, are you award that Apple asks a yearly developers fee of around 100 bucks in their iOS app store (MAC store as well, probably)? And if the developer doesn't pay that, the game will not just be removed from sale, but also from the purchase list of everybody who purchased the game? So if you happen to not have the game installed, you can't even install it anymore.

As I said, it's a licensing issue.

Even in the days of physical ownership you were bound by a liscence. Reselling your game was originally not even intended to be legal. The thing is the court dosen't really like to enforce rules that cannot be realistically enforced. Which is why every single attempt of publishers to shut down second-hand market has failed. Now they don't need to in the digital age. They already won this battle. ;)

[Thermal Lance]

EiiosTheria の投稿を引用：

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Back some years ago I told people to not jump into that wagon and stand their ground to secure their ownership. I was laughed at and ignored like many others. Now, I just watch in amusement when people go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because their favourite game become unaccessible from one day to another.

"I told you so" come to mind. Convenience is good but more should have been done for the end-user to preserve some level of control. But, you know? The next Call of Duty dropped and nobody cared. There is nothing you can do for that when the average person dosen't care.

Um, i dont know what your trying to say.?
All i understood was the shotgun-spread negativity.

What I've been trying to say is that you're about 20 years too late.

[Start_Running]

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Back some years ago I told people to not jump into that wagon and stand their ground to secure their ownership. I was laughed at and ignored like many others. Now, I just watch in amusement when people go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because their favourite game become unaccessible from one day to another.

"I told you so" come to mind. Convenience is good but more should have been done for the end-user to preserve some level of control. But, you know? The next Call of Duty dropped and nobody cared. There is nothing you can do for that when the average person dosen't care.

And let me guess. You've stood your ground all these years and not purchased any games from anywhere in all that time...right?

[Crazy Tiger]

EiiosTheria の投稿を引用：

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Back some years ago I told people to not jump into that wagon and stand their ground to secure their ownership. I was laughed at and ignored like many others. Now, I just watch in amusement when people go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because their favourite game become unaccessible from one day to another.

"I told you so" come to mind. Convenience is good but more should have been done for the end-user to preserve some level of control. But, you know? The next Call of Duty dropped and nobody cared. There is nothing you can do for that when the average person dosen't care.

Um, i dont know what your trying to say.?
All i understood was the shotgun-spread negativity.

He's saying how in the past he warned people to not buy games digital, cause it would mean you give up your ownership of the games. And that exactly is what happened, ergo "I told you so".

15 years ago I saw friends choose Steam versions of games over non-Steam disc based versions, because of convenience. We gamers, we customers, are just as responsible for todays game industry as the developers/publishers. People tend to forget that.

[Thermal Lance]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Back some years ago I told people to not jump into that wagon and stand their ground to secure their ownership. I was laughed at and ignored like many others. Now, I just watch in amusement when people go ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ because their favourite game become unaccessible from one day to another.

"I told you so" come to mind. Convenience is good but more should have been done for the end-user to preserve some level of control. But, you know? The next Call of Duty dropped and nobody cared. There is nothing you can do for that when the average person dosen't care.

And let me guess. You've stood your ground all these years and not purchased any games from anywhere in all that time...right?

Why would I? When I saw the battle was lost. What was the point of staying behind? None. Your question and gotcha is rather weak when taking that into consideration. At some point you have to move on.

[Start_Running]

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

EiiosTheria の投稿を引用：

Um, i dont know what your trying to say.?
All i understood was the shotgun-spread negativity.

He's saying how in the past he warned people to not buy games digital, cause it would mean you give up your ownership of the games. And that exactly is what happened, ergo "I told you so".

15 years ago I saw friends choose Steam versions of games over non-Steam disc based versions, because of convenience. We gamers, we customers, are just as responsible for todays game industry as the developers/publishers. People tend to forget that.

TIo be fair. not much changed in terms of the license between digital and non-digital, except that with digital, terms that could not reasonably be enforced before can now be enforced.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Why would I?

And this is why gamer boycotts never work ladies and gents. Gamers talk, but never actually follow through.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

When I saw the battle was lost. What was the point of staying behind? None.

So if everyone jumped off a bridge you'd just do it too hmm? Because what's the point in not jumping off the bridge right?

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Your question and gotcha is rather weak when taking that into consideration. At some point you have to move on.

Still stronger than that 'i told you so' .

[EiiosTheria]

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

GTA SA also works on modern machines. Or at least it does for 2 Steam friends I have that have been posting screenshots of the games in the activity feed for the past 2 weeks.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

You recieved what you paid for. You paid for a liscence. That's the thing. We have zero ground to demand anything from them.

Yup. And as long as the way licensing works doesn't change, this won't change.

OP, are you aware that Apple asks a yearly developers fee of around 100 bucks in their iOS app store (MAC store as well, probably)? And if the developer doesn't pay that, the game will not just be removed from sale, but also from the purchase list of everybody who purchased the game? So if you happen to not have the game installed, you can't even install it anymore.

As I said, it's a licensing issue.

Yipes, sounds like licencing sucks.
Any short explanation on how/why its like that?

How the heck is it legal to remove something someone payed for?
Oh my goodness i think i misunderstood how f'd the state of things were... Optimism running wild again, expecting few and simple things often proves too much. :((

To be clear,
So my issue is NOT a steam issue? Are my issues caused by developer decisions and Licencing choices/laws?

(And yeeeeah, thats why i dont use apple stuff.)

[Thermal Lance]

Start_Running の投稿を引用：

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

He's saying how in the past he warned people to not buy games digital, cause it would mean you give up your ownership of the games. And that exactly is what happened, ergo "I told you so".

15 years ago I saw friends choose Steam versions of games over non-Steam disc based versions, because of convenience. We gamers, we customers, are just as responsible for todays game industry as the developers/publishers. People tend to forget that.

TIo be fair. not much changed in terms of the license between digital and non-digital, except that with digital, terms that could not reasonably be enforced before can now be enforced.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Why would I?

And this is why gamer boycotts never work ladies and gents. Gamers talk, but never actually follow through.

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

When I saw the battle was lost. What was the point of staying behind? None.

So if everyone jumped off a bridge you'd just do it too hmm? Because what's the point in not jumping off the bridge right?

D-45H-YR の投稿を引用：

Your question and gotcha is rather weak when taking that into consideration. At some point you have to move on.

Still stronger than that 'i told you so' .

Nah, "I told you so" would only be inappropriate if I started ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ myself. Which I am not doing. Stop running in circle dude. I don't have to live with your name sake.

[Thermal Lance]

Trust me. I would love to be able to buy Mechwarrior 5 physical. But, such thing don't exist.

So your argument boils to "Man didn't give up his favourite hobby hahahaha". I'm a gamer. I hardly had a choice in the matter. So, when I saw nothing could be done I was confonted with a choice. Either I drop the hobby or I try to get the most out of it.

At least, I did try to ring the bells. To tell people to hold onto their games just long enough for the publishers to give us transferable liscences. But, it didn't work. Tell me, what it would have accomplished for me to just stay behind? Nothing.

The only change in recent years in my end is that I stopped pirating. Because no-matter the status of ownership, the devs deserve to be paid for their work.

[Crazy Tiger]

EiiosTheria の投稿を引用：

Crazy Tiger の投稿を引用：

GTA SA also works on modern machines. Or at least it does for 2 Steam friends I have that have been posting screenshots of the games in the activity feed for the past 2 weeks.


Yup. And as long as the way licensing works doesn't change, this won't change.

OP, are you aware that Apple asks a yearly developers fee of around 100 bucks in their iOS app store (MAC store as well, probably)? And if the developer doesn't pay that, the game will not just be removed from sale, but also from the purchase list of everybody who purchased the game? So if you happen to not have the game installed, you can't even install it anymore.

As I said, it's a licensing issue.

Yipes, sounds like licencing sucks.
Any short explanation on how/why its like that?

How the heck is it legal to remove something someone payed for?
Oh my goodness i think i misunderstood how f'd the state of things were... Optimism running wild again, expecting few and simple things often proves too much. :((

To be clear,
So my issue is NOT a steam issue? Are my issues caused by developer decisions and Licencing choices/laws?

(And yeeeeah, thats why i dont use apple stuff.)

It's legal because you purchase a license that has all kinds of additional terms. You only get access to the game for the duration the license is active. You seem to think you purchase something that is forever yours. It's not.

Your issue is with licensing in general. The platforms (Steam and the like) and the developers/publishers are the owners of the licenses and set the terms. Platforms are leading in this, as the developers/publishers agree to certain terms the platforms have (or they don't and don't sell through those platforms).
All we do when we purchase a license is purchase the right to use the software (game in this case), but at the terms of the owners. And as said, in the past with physical that couldn't actually be enforced, now with digital it can.

Licensing works this way because it's related to Intellectual Property. The original creators have the ownership rights. It's nothing different from musicians who own their songs, for example.

The issue you have with Steam is tied to the licenses. Steam is a platform that utilises automatic updating. It's a core part of the platform. Developers who want to sell their games through Steam, do so in accordance with how the Steam platform works. Which means that the default way of updating is part of the license we purchase.
Developers have the option to offer beta branches. It's a way to not have mandatory updates. But in general, most developers don't actually utilise that.