Jackie Paper 2022 年 10 月 25 日 下午 10:12
Full Steam Ahead!!
Congratulations to Valve on having 30,000,000+ concurrent users this weekend, and a big middle finger to you Epic.
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目前顯示第 31-45 則留言,共 50
Boblin the Goblin 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 1:24 
引用自 brian9824
引用自 Ice Mountain

But Epic is doing better than GOG, making more revenue in revenue in a single year on Third party games only, than GOG did on 6 or more years on first and third party games combined. That's a huge feat, in of itself.

Also that is false, as GoG loses far less money then EPIC. It doesn't matter if you make $300 million in revenue if you had to spend $500 million to make it........


GoG reported only like 40mil in losses recently.

They are doing much better than Epic on their store.
Garou 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 1:34 
I agree with the part that calls for Steam celebration. There's no need to berate other stores though. I've been using so many stores over the years due to various circumstances. The more stores are available, the more convenient it is for me. Even Epic store.
Mad Scientist 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 1:47 
引用自 Ice Mountain
so again, you don't get to decide if Epic Store is doing well or not, only Epic gets to decide that. And your lack of business understanding doesn't mean anything here.
That is not how business works at all.

Everyone knows they're doing bad. To do well the store would need to be profitable, it is very much not that.

The market dictates success or failures, doing well or doing poorly. They're economically doing very poorly as a store as they need to take a large amount of profit from a successful thing, to something that makes no money. In order to attempt attracting customers, they bribe them for the 1-Year exclusive which alienates a fair amount of customers into not buying the game.

That is a sign of failure and everyone else knows it.

There's also a huge difference between a "near monopoly" and actively doing nothing about competition by intentionally allowing the market to develop as it does which is something Newell seems to be about. That makes them highly used, but most certainly nowhere near a monopoly especially with all of the other sites/services existing.

They're an optional service, it attracts indies due to the popularity but never limits them, nor does Valve treat them like something to be conquered; they sit and collect their share of a sale.

Developers do and have utilized other sites & services to sell their games in addition to Steam. Acting like a monopoly would be restricting from using other places or competitors, something Valve is not fond of.
Brian9824 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 1:55 
引用自 Mad Scientist
引用自 Ice Mountain
so again, you don't get to decide if Epic Store is doing well or not, only Epic gets to decide that. And your lack of business understanding doesn't mean anything here.
That is not how business works at all.

Everyone knows they're doing bad. To do well the store would need to be profitable, it is very much not that.

The market dictates success or failures, doing well or doing poorly. They're economically doing very poorly as a store as they need to take a large amount of profit from a successful thing, to something that makes no money. In order to attempt attracting customers, they bribe them for the 1-Year exclusive which alienates a fair amount of customers into not buying the game.

That is a sign of failure and everyone else knows it.

There's also a huge difference between a "near monopoly" and actively doing nothing about competition by intentionally allowing the market to develop as it does which is something Newell seems to be about. That makes them highly used, but most certainly nowhere near a monopoly especially with all of the other sites/services existing.

They're an optional service, it attracts indies due to the popularity but never limits them, nor does Valve treat them like something to be conquered; they sit and collect their share of a sale.

Developers do and have utilized other sites & services to sell their games in addition to Steam. Acting like a monopoly would be restricting from using other places or competitors, something Valve is not fond of.

To be fair its fine to operate at a loss when you start up, you just need a plan to change that. For instance if EPIC's goal was to be a lower cost store compared to steam and to leverage their 12% cut vs Steams 20-30% and make their games cheaper that is a potential path that could have worked.

The problem is giving away stuff is the worst possible long term solution you can do. It creates the exact scenario they have fallen victim to. Ask anyone about what the EPIC stores best feature is and the overwhelming majority will say their free games.

Even the $5 off coupons are devestating. When they sell a $50 game they only make $6, so that $5 coupon basically wipes out all their profit, in fact they lose money selling a game thats $40 or less with a coupon...

The crux of EPIC's issue is they do nothing better then anyone else, and offer nothing that other sites don't do better. The only thing they have going for them is the very thing that makes it impossible to generate a profit.
Jackie Daytona 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 2:00 
引用自 brian9824
引用自 Ice Mountain
What makes you people so aggro in the defense of Steam? Invested into Valve? Valve employees?

Well I tend to prefer stores that dont pay developers to restrict where I can play games. But i'm funny that way.
You're funny in a lot of ways. Just... not how you want to be.

Most Epic exclusives are time-based. So, they come to Steam anyway.

If the wealthiest gamers have to go to Epic to be one of the first to play a game? This impacts me in no way whatsoever.

引用自 brian9824
Also to put it into perspective Steam generated more revenue from the sale of a SINGLE indie game then Epic realized from the entirety of their store in 2021. That in of itself tells you how bad their store is doing...
What indie game?
引用自 brian9824
Again a single indie game sold in 2021 on Steam generated more money then every 3rd party game on the EPIC store combined, INCLUDING Borderlands 3....
What game? Why be vague and coy?
引用自 brian9824
引用自 Ice Mountain
2- Unity, Netflix are 2 examples of business spending more than what they were getting back in revenue, and doing it for a decade+. its not unusual for business to do these kinds of things as they build up.

so again, you don't get to decide if Epic Store is doing well or not, only Epic gets to decide that. And your lack of business understanding doesn't mean anything here.

Yeah but Those other sites do so while they build up features, EPIC's only feature to customers is free games. They don't do anything that other sties already do better.
Name a feature that has been introduced to Netflix. Since the start of the Epic game store/launcher thingy.

Netflix hasn't changed in years. The last big change they made was removing user reviews. Which didn't add to the service. It was a removable of a feature.
引用自 brian9824
引用自 Ice Mountain
Gee, it's like Steam has been a near monopoly for over a decade and it's extremely hard to compete with that.
What does being a monopoly have to do with the fact that Epic's sales are so low a single game sold on Steam generated more Revenue then EPIC's entire game library INCLUDING Borderlands 3?
Gee... I don't know. Maybe that a monopoly causes everything else to be unable to enter the space. Like, y'know, a MONOPOLY tends to do?
Mad Scientist 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 2:03 
引用自 brian9824
To be fair its fine to operate at a loss when you start up, you just need a plan to change that. For instance if EPIC's goal was to be a lower cost store compared to steam and to leverage their 12% cut vs Steams 20-30% and make their games cheaper that is a potential path that could have worked.
I'm aware as owner/operator.
It's just dumb to rely on a pile of money for years & years for essentially a special interest project with questionable practices. If they want to succeed, they'd have better luck with a less clunky/slow app, and being more competitive rather than trying the exclusive/free game stuff which draws in nearly no paying customers. Something they said they'd do but never really stuck to realistically. Bribery only works for so long before they can't pay for it anymore, or they finally do something the right way to create success.

When all you do is try to give free stuff, or pay off people to only work with you for a limited time as a new entity, you're practically dooming your project especially when it should be focused on to make it profitable by itself, something they're miserably failing at.

引用自 brian9824
The problem is giving away stuff is the worst possible long term solution you can do. It creates the exact scenario they have fallen victim to. Ask anyone about what the EPIC stores best feature is and the overwhelming majority will say their free games.
I have a fairly expensive purchasing-price amount of things on epic with $0 spent, like a lot of accounts, so definitely an unwise move.

引用自 brian9824
Even the $5 off coupons are devestating. When they sell a $50 game they only make $6, so that $5 coupon basically wipes out all their profit, in fact they lose money selling a game thats $40 or less with a coupon...
Something a lot of people overlook, which is why Valve went from tokens & coupons to point shop.

引用自 brian9824
The crux of EPIC's issue is they do nothing better then anyone else, and offer nothing that other sites don't do better. The only thing they have going for them is the very thing that makes it impossible to generate a profit.
Their client takes a long time to load compared to everything else as well, and all my clients load instantly so that should say something.
Mad Scientist 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 2:05 
引用自 Jackie Daytona
Gee... I don't know. Maybe that a monopoly causes everything else to be unable to enter the space. Like, y'know, a MONOPOLY tends to do?
They do nothing about competition and welcome an open market without interfering, that has been their stance. Monopolies don't let competitors catch up, launch, survive or thrive as they're usually very cutthroat about those sorts of things, including buyouts which is also something Valve doesn't do.
Mad Scientist 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 2:32 
引用自 Ice Mountain
yeah, going with you really do not know how business actually works, especially when they are planned losses in the first place.
I paid off machinery in the first day and managed to buy more equipment with only a few orders, deliveries & shipments.

I did not constantly give away free stuff to consumers or bribe other companies to use my service for a while. I even have a competitive policy.

引用自 Ice Mountain
That you don't understand that its not unusual for companies to have planned losses for several years while they build up their services and user base, especially in marketing money.
Explained below

引用自 Ice Mountain
So again, you do not get to decide if they are failing or not, Only Epic gets to decide that, and there is no indication they feel it is failure.
The issue with that logic is you see so many failed businesses where people keep spending, spending, spending with no money coming in for that thing, and they think it's completely fine and successful or the issue is others tastes but they keep taking from their own pockets hoping someday the flaming pile becomes something else.

If you run a restaurant, you don't buy all the things you expect to buy as example to pay off, and then give expensive meals away no strings attached every week or two one per unique person until the next free meal and hope someone buys something off of your menu to make you more than what you give away.

You'd need to recoup the losses of;
-Giving away free meals by bribing other parties to give you the meals to give away.
-Coupons.
-All the equipment.
-Staff
-Utilities
-Rent/Leave/Upkeep

Now, doing so by adding immense expenses that are logically not needed makes recovering much more difficult, unless you dip your hands into a giant pile of money and shovel it to an unsuccessful project.

You don't keep shoveling money from one project to another, you have a set amount to get what you need, then you make it all pay itself off and become profitable. Constantly needing to do so, really goes to show it's a strong failure and is on life support.

If they cutoff the unending money flow by sticking to original estimates/amounts, and made it rely on itself while paying out all parties owed money, how long do you think they would remain open?
最後修改者:Mad Scientist; 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 2:33
Mad Scientist 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 2:54 
引用自 Ice Mountain
Yup, you still don't realize that big business often has losses for 7 or more years for new business or new business segment.
When your goal is to dethrone or compete with a larger entity, cutting your legs off is not really a normal thing for business.

引用自 Ice Mountain
When Epic removes the free games and the exclusive games, the Epic store business will be profitable with just the 12% they take. Again, the losses that are the direct result of the free games and exclusive games are all planned losses, planned losses through 2024. You cannot look at planned losses and say it's a failure when the company was always planning on having losses in the first place for the first 6 years of it's life.
It could've easily become successful just by competing regularly. Financially, it's a complete failure of an experiment. You do not constantly add more & more burden, you get what you need and go full ahead instead of harming your own business. The primary subject is that it cannot sustain itself and needs more & more over time.

The point is always for a project to sustain itself. The company is already established and has fortnite as its main income, I believe some royalties as well. They have success in that, due to pure popularity/trends, which might not last like a bunch tend to burn out.

Now, given they're established as a company, but the store is a project/experiment, you set an amount over years that you'll use on it. You do not add more & more, you make it profitable by bringing in customers, developers etc without bribing them or giving consumers free stuff. Account numbers does not equate to profit or sustainability when you're known to "free game, grab game, don't come back til another free game".

There's the company. It does well due to fortnite primarily.
Then there's the project. The project is a failure and if it doesn't succeed in its goal, it's still a failure. Much like a failing restaurant, "know when to cut your losses" and not dip into funds from elsewhere repeatedly. Their goal is to make the project successful, and that project is not a business; it (the project) is owned by the business. By taking the whole income and using it on something failing to generate profits or reach apparent estimates, it is most definitely not succeeding.
Brian9824 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 3:33 
引用自 Jackie Daytona
Most Epic exclusives are time-based. So, they come to Steam anyway.
Doesn't mean its still ok with me to delay games by a year because they can't compete on quality.

引用自 Jackie Daytona
What indie game?
Valheim, although even if it only matched 10% of EPIC's sales thats still crazy, especially when Borderlands 3 was in the mix.



引用自 Jackie Daytona
What game? Why be vague and coy?
Gave you the name

引用自 Jackie Daytona
Name a feature that has been introduced to Netflix.
All the content, netflix exclusive shows, etc. Netflix isn't a platform where features matter, its content.


引用自 Jackie Daytona
Gee... I don't know. Maybe that a monopoly causes everything else to be unable to enter the space. Like, y'know, a MONOPOLY tends to do?
Except its not a monopoly, nothing at all stops anyone from entering the space, and again EPIC had big content and many big name games. No one was interested in buying them from EPIC and they still aren't spending money on EPIC.

EPIC's best games were outsold by indie games on Steam. I mean for instance V Rising, another single Indie game has sold $50 million worth of copies in 4 months, EPIC managed 300 Million across their entire catalog in a year...
Brian9824 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 3:43 
引用自 Ice Mountain
And yes the revenue part is important despite their costs, because their costs are directly related to their marketing efforts to build their userbase of their store, they planned on having losses.

Not really, revenue is meaningless, profit is what matters. YOu could have a trillion dollars in revenue and it means nothing if your spending more then a trillion to earn that revenue. GoG might have less revenue, but they aren't losing money every year to get that revenue generating a profit.

I mean do you work a job where you lose money by working? Or do you make a profit from your work?

The fact is spending on EPIC averages at best around $4 a user PER YEAR, that isn't sustainable. Large numbers of users are useless if those users aren't actually being converted to paying customers. Having large numbers of users is useless unless you can convince those users to actually SPEND MONEY, otherwise the users actually hurt you by taking resources and generating nothing in return.

Once EPIC cuts the free games their store doesn't have anything to encourage the users to spend their money, or even stick around.

Also your info is wrong, EPIC's free game giveaway was supposed to end back in 2019, they had to extend it until 2024 because without it they realized they had nothing to offer.

https://www.kitguru.net/desktop-pc/mustafa-mahmoud/epic-is-offering-1-free-game-every-day-until-the-end-of-2019/

and

https://store.epicgames.com/en-US/news/epic-games-store-weekly-free-games-in-2020
Mad Scientist 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 3:50 
引用自 brian9824
The fact is spending on EPIC averages at best around $4 a user PER YEAR
While constantly giving piles of money to devs to give away $20-60 games very often, which puts it into a high negative amount per user or on average.

引用自 brian9824
that isn't sustainable. Large numbers of users are useless if those users aren't actually being converted to paying customers. Having large numbers of users is useless unless you can convince those users to actually SPEND MONEY, otherwise the users actually hurt you by taking resources and generating nothing in return.
Hence why it's a failure and still is as a project. Competent businesses try to succeed by creating success, not digging deeper and deeper holes by burning more money.

引用自 brian9824
Once EPIC cuts the free games their store doesn't have anything to encourage the users to spend their money, or even stick around.
Most of them likely wont stick around, given the number of accounts solely existing to get free games.

引用自 brian9824
Also your info is wrong, EPIC's free game giveaway was supposed to end back in 2019, they had to extend it until 2024 because without it they realized they had nothing to offer.
Having nothing to offer is an example of something clearly not doing well. Extending a gimmick that is not working, makes the matter significantly worse over time.

引用自 Ice Mountain
So again, you do not get to say that EGS is failing, only Epic gets to determine that, and you have absolutely nothing to show that Epic isn't happy about their progress.
Numbers don't lie. Market does get to say a failure is a failure. The question is if they can ever dig the project itself out of the hole to make profit by itself, which currently at gimmick rate, is not possible.
最後修改者:Mad Scientist; 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 3:52
Brian9824 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 3:53 
引用自 Ice Mountain
Epic does the free games and exclusive games because it does bring customers, they know there are going to be people who come for the free games or exclusive games that will end up sticking around to buy other games.
Except that literally isn't happening. Average spending per user is at abysmal levels. They are completely failing to convert USERS into CUSTOMERS.

They are getting USERS who are coming for free games, those users aren't turning into customers though. Hence why their free game program which was supposed to end in 2019 was extended for at LEAST another 4 years because the moment they stop offering them, their users go bye.

Again straight from their own numbers 300 million in sales and 194 million customers = on average $1.54 spent per user, a non sustainable number. If they aren't buying games NOW, why would they buy games when they stop giving away free games?

That's the question EPIC is still trying to answer.
最後修改者:Brian9824; 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 3:54
Boblin the Goblin 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 4:19 
引用自 Ice Mountain
引用自 brian9824
Except that literally isn't happening. Average spending per user is at abysmal levels. They are completely failing to convert USERS into CUSTOMERS.

They are getting USERS who are coming for free games, those users aren't turning into customers though. Hence why their free game program which was supposed to end in 2019 was extended for at LEAST another 4 years because the moment they stop offering them, their users go bye.

Again straight from their own numbers 300 million in sales and 194 million customers = on average $1.54 spent per user, a non sustainable number. If they aren't buying games NOW, why would they buy games when they stop giving away free games?

That's the question EPIC is still trying to answer.

in 2019, average paying customer spent $40, and that was with a tiny library. And since you have absolutely nothing to judge things by since Valve never releases sales figures, you have no idea what the total average for each active customer is, so you have nothing to judge by.

The more people they bring in with exclusives and free games, the more people with in that group to become paying customers, it's a numbers game.

When they stop giving away free games, they'll have the people who have been paying customers, customers they obtained in part due to the free games. They don't care about the people who will never spend money there, they only care about getting people who will spend money, and the free games helps to get those people to their store.

Their first year they converted 4 million people into paying customers again with a very tiny library of games to buy from, so they are in fact converting people into customers.


If any of what you said were true about bringing in paying customers, they would be making a lot more. Oh, and downloading a free game doesn't make someone a paying customer.

It isn't near a 1 to 1 transition.
最後修改者:Boblin the Goblin; 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 4:20
Brian9824 2022 年 10 月 26 日 下午 5:11 
引用自 Ice Mountain
in 2019, average paying customer spent $40, and that was with a tiny library.
Completely false, you can read their own numbers here - https://deifoexkvnt11.cloudfront.net/assets/editorial/2020/01/egs-infographic-overview.jpg

108 million customers, 251 million in 3rd party sales. That averages $2.32 per user. Even if you factor in 680 million for titles like Fortnite (which they were getting before they even had EPIC store) its $6.29 per customer. The average spend has actually DECREASED from 2019 which is a VERY bad sign.

Also keep in mind the ONLY reason they even got that much in sales was because of Borderlands 3. Again some basic math.

$251 million in 3rd party sales means they only kept $30 million. They paid 4x that JUST for borderlands 3. A single game which accounted for more then 1/3 of their entire sales for the year.

引用自 Ice Mountain
The more people they bring in with exclusives and free games, the more people with in that group to become paying customers, it's a numbers game.
That is their intention, but its not whats happening. Hence why they are being forced to continue giving away free games for years after they intended to stop.

Again very basic numbers straight form EPIC.
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