Why I'm done Steam Suggestions / Ideas forum and why you shouldn't bother either.

[FOXDUDE69]

It's time for me to follow the advice of many users who came and went over the years and completely stop bothering with it.

The Steam hub, but more specifically, the Suggestions / Ideas forum has been poisoned by a cabal of individuals other regulars have recently started referring to as "bad actors" because, frankly that's what they are. Steam does not take action and their behavior has only worsened over the last couple of years. If this is the community they want, I'm out.

These so called "bad actors" (i'd call them something else) act negatively and even hostile towards, what appears, almost every suggestion or idea they participate in. Even ideas for features they could completely ignore and wouldn't impact their experience whatsoever.

They seem to not be very good at debating ideas, which becomes apparent after just a couple of posts, even for newcomers engaging them for the first time. But that is fine, not everyone is good at debating and it can be hard for some to think logically about an issue they are passionate about.

What is not fine, however, is to engage in a desire to "win" at any costs.
The "arguments" they typically post in are largely constituted by made up non-issues, highly-unlikely scenarios that would never take place, illogical drivel, breaking up other users' posts in a way that allows them to leave out and ignore relevant context (they seem to have learned that tactic from a former volunteer mod), blatant attempts to derail the thread so that it eventually gets locked and a numerous other underhanded tactics. All while abusing the report system and trying to get you banned, too.

When a user ignores an argument that's too nonsensical to even warrant a reply, they'll spam the thread with claims the user "conveniently ignored" whatever drivel they wrote and pretend that the other user can't refute their argument.

When confronted about their behavior or the "logic" behind their posts by newcomers and regulars alike they'll resort to spamming "This is a discussion forum, not a affirmation forum." which is a completely non-constructive and dishonest thing to write, as it implies users who disagree with them, who very often are arguing their position clearly and attempting to engage in proper debate, are simply there because they want affirmation from others. Watch them now quote the one time I held a mirror their face and said the same thing and watch them pretend like it's is the same thing as engaging in this behavior naturally and repeatedly.

My favorite argument of theirs is when they tell people that "If Valve wanted to do this, they would have done it by now". Another blatantly non-constructive argument. So... We should only bother suggesting things that have already been done?! What's the logic here? Talk about completely missing the point of a Suggestions / Ideas board!

Recently, I had yet another one of my threads closed because of their behavior, I stopped posting several hours before it got locked, and asked other participants to not reply to these "bad actors" as they were clearly trying to get the thread locked. But other users went for the bait and I could do nothing but to watch another one of my threads that I put a lot of thought into get locked.

The community responded to this, as they are sick of it, and a thread about threads getting locked promptly came up after. The so called "bad actors" didn't like it one bit and pretended my thread locked because of my behavior, since I was banned. What they "forgot" to tell everyone is that they abused to report system and got me banned for saying "this is comedy gold" on another thread.

That's right, that's all it takes! These people just report anything and everything you write until some mod having a bad day screws you over and support doesn't lift a finger to help you because you've been banned several times before (on BS like this), so they'll just assume you are trash and let the thing stand.

So my advice to all newcomers, and a reminder to regulars, is to contest every ban that you get, even if it's just for a day, because when you've had a few, you'll be increasingly easier to ban. So I "thank" the volunteer mods for my first few illegitimate bans, and other BS ones that followed... Even though you've lost your privileges, the consequences of your "moderation" will continue to echo through these forums. And what a wonderful place it is, isn't it?

And what happened to that thread about threads getting locked... Well it got locked, too!
Am I surprised? Disappointed, for sure, but not surprised.

引用自 Valve：

This thread has gone through multiple waves of moderation in hopes of keeping the discussion healthy, but the discussion continues to devolve into fighting and reporting wars. Therefore, this thread has been locked.

As a reminder, please note that abusing the post reporting system can lead to actions against your account.

Thank you for your understanding.

I wonder why these people who've come to be referred to as "bad actors" among other regulars weren't banned after the first wave of moderation but were instead allowed to derail yet another thread they disliked and resume hostilities. One of these users tried to bait me into non-constructive arguments several times by repeatedly quoting a quote of mine from another thread, regardless of relevance or context. No action taken, which promotes this behavior, which he is already famous for.

The Valve quote also confirms my suspicion that these people abuse the report system. I knew volunteer mods used to ban people based on these reports, because some of them were dishonest thugs who should've never held that position, but report abuse somehow continues to work in these people's favor... Occasionally getting a couple of users banned because of posts nobody should ever get banned for while the people abusing the report system go unpunished and behave however they like and ironically acting saintly.

They even take screenshots and share them in their "artwork" sections celebrating when they get one or multiple people banned. I was linked a screenshot with the caption "two birds, one stone" when they got me and another user posting in the same thread banned, clearly showing who is being hostile and spiteful.
I reported that screenshot, and even though it is now gone, the user abusing the report system for the lols didn't suffer any further consequences and continues to act saintly.

To close...

I've met some truly wonderful and insightful people here, and I've learned quite a bit from them. In those people, and their posts, I see what this place could have been and the types of conversations it could have fostered if moderation started... moderating properly.

I was really hoping with volunteer mods going away, this would be a new leaf for the Steam forums, even saw some old faces coming back and becoming more active after that but a couple months later, we are all realizing that it's going to take real hard work to fix the community that the volunteer mods fostered.

For all those reasons. My advice to everyone reading, is to stop bothering with the Suggestions / Ideas forum until Valve makes it a place conducive for honest and constructive dialogue.

Because the way it is now, the Suggestions / Ideas forum can be summed up in one CS:GO line: Terrorists win.

Thank you for reading. Here's a cat.

[Start_Running]

引用自 Psymon²：

**standing ovation**

i prefer your "terrorists win" to what i would say
"the inmates run the asylum"
or
"abandon all hope ye who enter"

But the terrorists lost. That's why Fox and yourself are so salty.

引用自 FOXDUDE69：

You find something insanely hilarious, do you? Good that you can say that without getting banned. I can't.

So tthe shady Moderation cabal just has it in for you for...'reasons'.

There's a simple golden rule for the forums that most of us are able to follow most of the time. DOn't be an asshat. We all slip up on that from time to time, but most people manage it easily enough...Maybe with an odd reminder here and there .

If you find it so hard, then I'd suggest staying away from the forums entirely because I can tell you. if you do the same thing shere that you do in suggestions.. then you gonna have the same results.

Maybe stick to group chats among your cohorts, or you can try your luck in Off-Topic.

[Brian9824]

引用自 Coffee：

.

Thats the problem with not knowing the details. The Op and his buddies harassed people like crazy in their previous thread - https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/10/5595176692485257310/

Moderators locked it, and now they are making a new thread with the EXACT same claims, which is against the rules. Hence why this thread will be closed to.

In your scenario that type of behavior you described is 100% wrong. The OP's behavior he finds so abhorrent is anyone who has a different opinion then him MUST be a troll because everyone has to agree with him and no one elses opinion is valid.

[Mad Scientist]

I was going to take time to go through and respond to various, wildly inaccurate parts, but I recognize this as just targeting&complaining about users and moderators, again, so I doubt there will be a two-way conversation.

What I was going to write, has criticisms for all "sides", mostly pointing out immense inaccuracies, assumptions, and targeting of one specific user without naming them assuming they're "report abusing" which is also, extremely inaccurate.

Instead, I'll have this quote noted:

引用自 Satoru：

I mean its sort of insanely hilarious that the people who have been banned my multiple different volunteer and paid moderators are the ones 'complaining'. Yet somehow the 'bad actors' are fine because

Perhaps you and your cohorts should think more about your own behavior, instead of always blaming the consequences of your own actions upon others.

What's interesting is highly punished are usually friends, and adopt each others saying and use it as if repeating it will make it any true when grossly wrong. Most of my list is populated from people I know, communities I've been a part of, or otherwise. I do not "friend" people for having similar beliefs of moderators and specific users, as that has zero value. Those on my list, I can have varying discussions on and will disagree with them on some subjects, but they do not accuse each other or myself of things out of mere disagreements.

引用自 Coffee：

I noticed any time an anti-NSFW thread pops up the same people show up arguing the same thing

Most of the anti nsfw stuff I've seen is basically "how dare cleavage be displayed."

The rest of the post seems, not really related, but generally you should just make points without status or name-calling individuals. I realize here, you're not calling anyone that, but for context; when people just have to note things or name-call their opposition, they're not going to change anyones mind as it's just hostility (for the name calling part).

引用自 Coffee：

But either way, the OP is right, I seen it in the anti-nsfw community...same arguments...and even use "fake news" because its a study they don't personally agree with lol.

People posting in the suggestions section is not the "anti-nsfw community", though, nor are we discussing that. OP is also targeting specific users and mods, so they are very much immensely wrong.

[Coffee]

Well fair enough as far as that thread goes. I didn't see that thread that got locked when I saw the OP make this thread, and it seemed pretty unconstructive browsing a few pages back through it. I'm sure some/many posts were deleted so I don't got the full picture. I actually saw the post when it was only a few pages and it seemed ok, didnt know that was the one OP was talking about though. I don't think it was his thread though like he claimed it was, looks like it belonged to someone else.

And yeah, you are right, going around calling people bigots probably doesnt help. Sorry about that. I have learning to do myself, even if someone appears to be one, I should just keep it to myself. Too used to WoW where there are actually legit bigots who play it, and hence why I quit...but thats a completely not on the subject of the OP.

As for my story about the NSFW, it was more to point out that they use the same stuff OP was talking about. Though considering I had no idea what thread the OP was talking about, I probably should have just not posted at all...I'm going to go back and enjoy my coffee and wake up lol. Posting anything when I first wake up is never a good thing :O

[Coffee]

I went ahead and deleted that post i made. Not to "hide" it. Its just not constructive at all and I should have not posted when I had no idea OP was talking about that thread that looks like it got so derailed that a moderator had to step in. No idea who is right or wrong, so I'm going to go about my day

[Brian9824]

Yeah it wasn't the OP's thread but it was made by a friend after they got mad one of their other threads were closed in which they were harassing and dismissing users. Then they spend hundreds of posts harassing people, getting banned, harassing some more, getting banned again, and now the cycle repeats.

[Tito Shivan]

引用自 Satoru：

Note GOG feature wishlist is like a literal graveyard where things go to die. The Linux client for Galaxy has like 70k votes spread across a dozen wishlists.

And that’s the other thing something like this needs constant maintenance. It needs constant consolidation, cleanup, etc. Introversion had a public facing Mantis bug database but it required them to constantly clean up duplicate or bad entries in it constantly.

Such a feature on steam would become literally unusable within a week. It could easily be trolled or abused within a few hours

You're not telling me anything I didn't know already.

[Judgmental Amaterasu]

Today on Foxdude's "Only my opinion matters everyone else shut up" thread of the day.

[Sasori Kigaru]

So I've agreed and disagreed with both sides before on various topics.

So as someone in the middle not necessarily connected to this whole thing and thus from an outside perspective...

Why don't both sides ignore each other instead?

Foxdude&Friends and the "Regulars" (I don't know what else to call that side of things so I'm just going with that for convenience)

Anytime you all are in a thread together it always devolves, and personally I feel the blame is equal. You all know you cannot agree on certain things, you all know that you'll end up arguing in circles until a thread gets locked.

I am ALL for opinions being openly shared and expressed. But when two groups of people don't get along to this extent? Wouldn't ignoring each other bring more peace to BOTH sides?

Then again, perhaps you all enjoy these kinds of arguments/debates? I know I enjoy a good debate but damn, it just feels like this doesn't ever end.

[Tito Shivan]

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

Then again, perhaps you all enjoy these kinds of arguments/debates? I know I enjoy a good debate but damn, it just feels like this doesn't ever end.

Some people like to argue, some people like to be argued...

[Start_Running]

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

So I've agreed and disagreed with both sides before on various topics.

So as someone in the middle not necessarily connected to this whole thing and thus from an outside perspective...

Why don't both sides ignore each other instead?

Because then you just have dueling monologues in a thread. At best. At worst you have two different discussions in the same thread.

Imagine that in a town hall meeting.

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

Foxdude&Friends and the "Regulars" (I don't know what else to call that side of things so I'm just going with that for convenience)

COnsidering regulars is anyone who disagree's with foxdude and friends.. I mean if they really don't want actual discussion they are free to just stick to their forums, or private chat or create a steam group where only they can post .

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

Then again, perhaps you all enjoy these kinds of arguments/debates? I know I enjoy a good debate but damn, it just feels like this doesn't ever end.

Good debates are great mental exercises. You can learn new things, get a different POV on the things you know, and of course have reason to reevaluate and perhaps alter your opinions. ANd in the course of trhis new understandings are formed, and most interestingly where the topic is suggestions or ideas, the idea itself is improved.

[Sasori Kigaru]

引用自 Start_Running：

Because then you just have dueling monologues in a thread. At best. At worst you have two different discussions in the same thread.

Imagine that in a town hall meeting.

With things as they are though these town hall meetings are little more than screaming matches against people who do little more than seemingly frustrate each other.

It'd be different if both sides could be respectful towards each other, but neither side is.

引用自 Start_Running：

COnsidering regulars is anyone who disagree's with foxdude and friends.. I mean if they really don't want actual discussion they are free to just stick to their forums, or private chat or create a steam group where only they can post .

Regulars isn't anyone who disagrees with him. The regulars he seems refers to mainly consists of you, Brian, Nx, Gentlebot, Supafly and I think a couple others I'd have to go search for.

There are certainly going to be other people who disagree, but there are also those that agree with his side of things too. It mainly seems to come down to Foxdude&Friends and Regulars (Such as those as I listed) speak to each other.

What you all are doing isn't much discussion so much as it is heated arguments. A discussion is usually peaceful, usually. It also has the intent of trying to get the other side to understand another point of view in the hopes of getting them to acknowledge or at least realize the validity of the opposing side.

I can't see either side here agreeing with each other or even agreeing to disagree. Its just arguing until a thread lock as if its a game of who gets the last word in.

引用自 Start_Running：

Good debates are great mental exercises. You can learn new things, get a different POV on the things you know, and of course have reason to reevaluate and perhaps alter your opinions. ANd in the course of trhis new understandings are formed, and most interestingly where the topic is suggestions or ideas, the idea itself is improved.

I agree with you here, a good debate is GREAT to have and I very much enjoy them. But that is why I don't understand why neither side just ignores each other. Its not a debate, its a shouting match. There isn't anything to learn because the same points are always brought up and shot down. It seems more like a love of arguing like Tito pointed out.

When it comes to suggestion and ideas, I shall admit the most I see in that forum is an occasional idea get accepted but most get shot down pretty quickly and sometimes in a fairly dismissive way or sometimes seemingly hostile but in all fairness it can be difficult to read 'tone' through text.

[Start_Running]

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

引用自 Start_Running：

Because then you just have dueling monologues in a thread. At best. At worst you have two different discussions in the same thread.

Imagine that in a town hall meeting.

With things as they are though these town hall meetings are little more than screaming matches against people who do little more than seemingly frustrate each other.

It'd be different if both sides could be respectful towards each other, but neither side is.

One must ask from whence the venom flows. The side that habitually starts off by 'othering' .

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

Regulars isn't anyone who disagrees with him. The regulars he seems refers to mainly consists of you, Brian, Nx, Gentlebot, Supafly and I think a couple others I'd have to go search for.

We all happen to disagree with him. That list has been growing ever so steadily.

引用自 Sasori Kigaru：

What you all are doing isn't much discussion so much as it is heated arguments. A discussion is usually peaceful, usually. It also has the intent of trying to get the other side to understand another point of view in the hopes of getting them to acknowledge or at least realize the validity of the opposing side.

And when one side equates critique and correction as 'Personal attacks' or harrassments, It's rather hard for things to stay peaceful.

Heck this thread shows the OP is going into the whole matter with a vindictive grudge from the outset.

[Teefa]

me: "Your behavior is abusive and not at all conductive to having a discussion. You are making me and many others feel uncomfortable. I feel harassed by your personal attacks and constant antagonism."

a polite and helpful forum regular: "AHA! Yet another foolish person who cannot take any criticism. Why don't you just leave!"

[BJWyler]

引用自 Start_Running：

引用自 Nx Machina：

If it works you do not change it and in turn does not equal "want, need, desire" as it is already functioning as intended and Valve are known for going their own way.

I'd expand to say. The addition or change should be an objective and measurable improvement over the status quo. A simple lateral shift or down grade is just not worth the time. The problem is Oblective improvement. Some people seem to assum that their POV on something is the only/correct view and therefore objective and sopme of those tend not to react well to this epiphany.

Hence why this is done as a discussion forum. This way one can be exposed to different POV's.

To reiterate what Crazy Tiger said, this works both ways. Something doesn't have to be a measurable improvement (who, aside from Valve, gets to decide what is measurable or not?) to be a benefit to the end users. It also doesn't have to benefit the majority of users to be a worthwhile suggestion or improvement to make.

引用自 Satoru：

引用自 Psymon²：

**standing ovation**

i prefer your "terrorists win" to what i would say
"the inmates run the asylum"
or
"abandon all hope ye who enter"

I mean its sort of insanely hilarious that the people who have been banned my multiple different volunteer and paid moderators are the ones 'complaining'. Yet somehow the 'bad actors' are fine because

* checks notes*

they follow the rules

Perhaps you and your cohorts should think more about your own behavior, instead of always blaming the consequences of your own actions upon others.

Not necessarily. You can follow the rules and still be a bad actor. Having been doing this type of thing for well nigh 30 years, I can certainly say this to be an axiom, especially when I've been on the trolling side of the fence and never having been banned for it.