A sea of indie trash and Early Access games.

[phosTR]

This is what Steam has become. I want AA games back.

[Pierce Dalton]

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

I'm forced to agree. There are excellent indie games, but we can't say that about most of them.

Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.

It's as true now as it was 30 years ago.

90% seems like a stretch, but yeah, I guess that's right. One could say the same about the movie industry.

[Pierce Dalton]

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

IFIYGD eredeti hozzászólása:

The thing is, no one really knows what "AA" games means. There are dozens of different definitions for "AA Game" all over the internet- most being personal opinions on "good indie games" vs. "bad indie games".

Hell, even the term "indie" gets used to mean different things. "Indie"- any game made by a smaller studio with a smaller publisher like THQN or a large publisher like EA? Or "Indie"- a game made by a smaller studio that self-publishes- which I consider an "Independent" game, not an "indie" game. "Indie game" meaning smaller dev with a smaller publisher backing them, to me. I would consider The Long Dark, Don't Starve as "Independent games", while Titan Quest/ TQ: IT/ Titan Quest: AE and both Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning and Re-Reckoning would be "indie" games in my opinion.

But other people would classify those games differently. Some people use names like "A" and "B" games, and I have no idea what that even means.

So a definition of what the OP considers an "AA" game to be and mean needs to be given, with game examples listed for comparison.

To be fair, AA has nothing really to do with indie games.

It's more literally around a slightly less funded game than triple AA. It doesn't really say anything about WHO publishes it.

Though this does also lend to your point that there's a really vague definition about it almost to the point of redundancy.

And no, Indie" does not mean a smaller game or studio. It means a product made by an INDEPENDENT company free from big publisher involvment and/or funding.

It's the same in music and film.

This is why Valve have always been an indie studio (though you could argue alittle otherwise today). Level 5, who make tons of RPG games are indie too. Though a distinction must be made in their case.

When they make any of their games like Rogue Galaxy, that was an indie game, but when they have their Dragon Quest games, they are not because they were funded by major publisher.

It's much like the Indie charts in music. Back in the 1980s was when they had their heyday and artists from the post punk era, new wave and so on held sway.

When Kylie Minogue and Rick Astley topped the charts some wondered what the hell was going on. But they WERE indie - they were songs that hit number in the actual charts, but were on independent labels.

I never said AA games are indie games. On the contrary, they're far from that.

[Pierce Dalton]

brian9824 eredeti hozzászólása:

crunchyfrog eredeti hozzászólása:

Well the thing to remember is the term ISN'T wrong, but I get why that's confusing to some.

As with Level 5 I mentioned, when they're creating their own games they are purely indie.

When they create a Dragon Quest game they are STILL an indie dev, but the game is NOT.

Yeab its convoluted, as you mentioned its more about the control of the creative process then it is about the budget. Budget is OFTEN a factor, but not always a factor. AAA games can be made with small budgets, indie games can have big budgets. As a rule of thumb though assuming indie games based on smaller budgets is USUALLY safe, but not always

Then you have games like Minecraft which start as indie games and are now basically a AAA game....

Its a very difficult term to quantify and its VERY subjective. Like NIS

https://www.gematsu.com/2018/02/nis-america-announces-indie-action-game-assault-spy-pc

Bigger companies often work with indie companies, helping to promote their games, to publish them, etc. So you can have an indie game with a big developer involved and sometimes even providing assistance in funding or manpower or expertise. The key factor IMO is the control.

As mentioned when they make a Dragon Quest game they answer to the owners of the IP and they control the direction and creativity. But the same studio making their own game even if they get some funding from a bigger developer is still able to be considered indie if they have full creative control.

What? Minecraft is not an AAA game, it just became popular. The same happened to Among Us and others.

The reason is simple: these games were made with scarce resources.

[davidb11]

Yes. He said it started as an indie game, and now is a AAA game because of the resources behind it.

[RamiroRa]

I mean, yeah you are right, but on the other side, this is what made Steam so popular.

[Brian9824]

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

What? Minecraft is not an AAA game, it just became popular. The same happened to Among Us and others.

The reason is simple: these games were made with scarce resources.

Yeah as I stated it was MADE with scarce resources and was an indie game, now it has the full resources of Microsoft behind it so you can't really call it an indie game anymore, especially as they employ 600+ people in the studio

[Pierce Dalton]

brian9824 eredeti hozzászólása:

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

What? Minecraft is not an AAA game, it just became popular. The same happened to Among Us and others.

The reason is simple: these games were made with scarce resources.

Yeah as I stated it was MADE with scarce resources and was an indie game, now it has the full resources of Microsoft behind it so you can't really call it an indie game anymore, especially as they employ 600+ people in the studio

They aren't really improving the game, though. Despite updates and stuff like that, it's basically the same thing. The money made is not coming back to the game, it's going to Microsoft's account.

[Garou]

There are a lot of good indie games around and some early access games are very good, like Vampire Survivors, in my opinion. And someone also mentioned lewd anime games. Those can be quite relaxing casual games as well. On the other hand, some of them can be quite difficult and will test your skills. It all comes down to research, trailers, watching gameplay videos, reviews, streams. I haven't refunded a game in a while and I bought all kinds of stuff ranging from blockbuster AAA to cheapest indie.

[Pierce Dalton]

reaper eredeti hozzászólása:

There are a lot of good indie games around and some early access games are very good, like Vampire Survivors, in my opinion. And someone also mentioned lewd anime games. Those can be quite relaxing casual games as well. On the other hand, some of them can be quite difficult and will test your skills. It all comes down to research, trailers, watching gameplay videos, reviews, streams. I haven't refunded a game in a while and I bought all kinds of stuff ranging from blockbuster AAA to cheapest indie.

"Quite relaxing"

LOL ah, yes, definitely. I'm sure they are.

[Garou]

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

reaper eredeti hozzászólása:

There are a lot of good indie games around and some early access games are very good, like Vampire Survivors, in my opinion. And someone also mentioned lewd anime games. Those can be quite relaxing casual games as well. On the other hand, some of them can be quite difficult and will test your skills. It all comes down to research, trailers, watching gameplay videos, reviews, streams. I haven't refunded a game in a while and I bought all kinds of stuff ranging from blockbuster AAA to cheapest indie.

"Quite relaxing"

LOL ah, yes, definitely. I'm sure they are.

not in that way lol

[Tito Shivan]

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

Sturgeon's Law: 90% of everything is crap.

It's as true now as it was 30 years ago.

90% seems like a stretch, but yeah, I guess that's right. One could say the same about the movie industry.

The only thing that's happened to gaming is the very same that happened to every other content based industry (video, music, artwork, literature):
The democratization of production tools.

Now is easier than ever to do and distribute your own content. That made the volume of content grow exponentially.

Of course the Sturgeon law applies equally and that means lots of new crap, but also lots of new diamonds (which wouldn't have happened in the past had it to go through the older distribution channels)

Which brings us to the big question: WHY Steam lets "everything in"

You pointed at the answer here:

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

What? Minecraft is not an AAA game, it just became popular. The same happened to Among Us and others.

Simply put, you can foresee what the next big thing will be. If you could, you'd be sitting on a money making machine. You can try follow trends, but the thing is we don't know which voxel-looking, full of silly mechanics, 'indie crap' game is going to become the next fan favourite.

That's why you sell everything. Because real crap will inevitably sink to the bottom and you don't want the next big thing to be popular on another service and have people asking weekly 'Why Isn't X in Steam?' (which happened with minecraft for years in the old forums)

And Steam isn't much different than other services in that regard. Look at Amazon's Kindle store, for example. Look at Spotify. Even Epic, with all its cackled 'quality control' is starting its own 'Steam Direct' Program...

[Pierce Dalton]

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

90% seems like a stretch, but yeah, I guess that's right. One could say the same about the movie industry.

The only thing that's happened to gaming is the very same that happened to every other content based industry (video, music, artwork, literature):
The democratization of production tools.

Now is easier than ever to do and distribute your own content. That made the volume of content grow exponentially.

Of course the Sturgeon law applies equally and that means lots of new crap, but also lots of new diamonds (which wouldn't have happened in the past had it to go through the older distribution channels)

Which brings us to the big question: WHY Steam lets "everything in"

You pointed at the answer here:

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

What? Minecraft is not an AAA game, it just became popular. The same happened to Among Us and others.

Simply put, you can foresee what the next big thing will be. If you could, you'd be sitting on a money making machine. You can try follow trends, but the thing is we don't know which voxel-looking, full of silly mechanics, 'indie crap' game is going to become the next fan favourite.

That's why you sell everything. Because real crap will inevitably sink to the bottom and you don't want the next big thing to be popular on another service and have people asking weekly 'Why Isn't X in Steam?' (which happened with minecraft for years in the old forums)

And Steam isn't much different than other services in that regard. Look at Amazon's Kindle store, for example. Look at Spotify. Even Epic, with all its cackled 'quality control' is starting its own 'Steam Direct' Program...

You make a good point here. The thing is, if Steam had some QC, then we would have more diamonds than crap. Also, as a direct result of this, game devs would strive to make better games, because they would know Steam has some standards. Currently, it is "anything goes". If they had some kind of evaluation, I would think twice before submitting my game to Steam. In short, this would only improve the quality of games.

To be fair, though, the good thing is the crappy games don't take space from good games, there's room for everyone. Still, it would be nice to have some quality control, especially when it comes to adult games. Hell, some of them are just slideshows. Steam allow lazy devs to have cashgrabs on their store. I'm using the adult genre to exemplify because it's more obvious in this genre, but it happens in all of them, to a certain extent.

We can refund games, of course. Still, there are limits for that and I believe no one likes to refund a game.

[Jamebonds1]

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

The only thing that's happened to gaming is the very same that happened to every other content based industry (video, music, artwork, literature):
The democratization of production tools.

Now is easier than ever to do and distribute your own content. That made the volume of content grow exponentially.

Of course the Sturgeon law applies equally and that means lots of new crap, but also lots of new diamonds (which wouldn't have happened in the past had it to go through the older distribution channels)

Which brings us to the big question: WHY Steam lets "everything in"

You pointed at the answer here:

Simply put, you can foresee what the next big thing will be. If you could, you'd be sitting on a money making machine. You can try follow trends, but the thing is we don't know which voxel-looking, full of silly mechanics, 'indie crap' game is going to become the next fan favourite.

That's why you sell everything. Because real crap will inevitably sink to the bottom and you don't want the next big thing to be popular on another service and have people asking weekly 'Why Isn't X in Steam?' (which happened with minecraft for years in the old forums)

And Steam isn't much different than other services in that regard. Look at Amazon's Kindle store, for example. Look at Spotify. Even Epic, with all its cackled 'quality control' is starting its own 'Steam Direct' Program...

You make a good point here. The thing is, if Steam had some QC, then we would have more diamonds than crap. Also, as a direct result of this, game devs would strive to make better games, because they would know Steam has some standards. Currently, it is "anything goes". If they had some kind of evaluation, I would think twice before submitting my game to Steam. In short, this would only improve the quality of games.

To be fair, though, the good thing is the crappy games don't take space from good games, there's room for everyone. Still, it would be nice to have some quality control, especially when it comes to adult games. Hell, some of them are just slideshows. Steam allow lazy devs to have cashgrabs on their store. I'm using the adult genre because it's more obvious in this genre, but it happens in all of them, to a certain extent.

We can refund games, of course. Still, there are limits for that and I believe no one likes to refund a game.

What worst than refund is chargeback.

[❤ Sly Succubus ❤]

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

Tito Shivan eredeti hozzászólása:

The only thing that's happened to gaming is the very same that happened to every other content based industry (video, music, artwork, literature):
The democratization of production tools.

Now is easier than ever to do and distribute your own content. That made the volume of content grow exponentially.

Of course the Sturgeon law applies equally and that means lots of new crap, but also lots of new diamonds (which wouldn't have happened in the past had it to go through the older distribution channels)

Which brings us to the big question: WHY Steam lets "everything in"

You pointed at the answer here:

Simply put, you can foresee what the next big thing will be. If you could, you'd be sitting on a money making machine. You can try follow trends, but the thing is we don't know which voxel-looking, full of silly mechanics, 'indie crap' game is going to become the next fan favourite.

That's why you sell everything. Because real crap will inevitably sink to the bottom and you don't want the next big thing to be popular on another service and have people asking weekly 'Why Isn't X in Steam?' (which happened with minecraft for years in the old forums)

And Steam isn't much different than other services in that regard. Look at Amazon's Kindle store, for example. Look at Spotify. Even Epic, with all its cackled 'quality control' is starting its own 'Steam Direct' Program...

You make a good point here. The thing is, if Steam had some QC, then we would have more diamonds than crap. Also, as a direct result of this, game devs would strive to make better games, because they would know Steam has some standards. Currently, it is "anything goes". If they had some kind of evaluation, I would think twice before submitting my game to Steam. In short, this would only improve the quality of games.

To be fair, though, the good thing is the crappy games don't take space from good games, there's room for everyone. Still, it would be nice to have some quality control, especially when it comes to adult games. Hell, some of them are just slideshows. Steam allow lazy devs to have cashgrabs on their store. I'm using the adult genre because it's more obvious in this genre, but it happens in all of them, to a certain extent.

We can refund games, of course. Still, there are limits for that and I believe no one likes to refund a game.

Steam DID, it was called Steam Greenlight. It literally lived for I think a year before it got shutdown as other sites like Itch IO and even Game Jolt had existed for so long alot of people that went on Greenline just abandoned Steam Greenlight and went back to the others as they were already known over there and barely on Steam. Heck a few known ones started out there including Baldys Basics on Itch and even interestingly on Game Jolt..

https://gamejolt.com/games/batim/231092

Bendy started its life over there before both came to Steam, however they came over after they got out of testing and people enjoyed them. Not many do the indy dev sites tho beyond those that literally release adult games that they bootleg translated and sold as theirs which most are not, their just stolen google translated re-sells or simply dont leave even alpha access stage.

[Pierce Dalton]

Lustrous Spirit eredeti hozzászólása:

Pierce Dalton eredeti hozzászólása:

You make a good point here. The thing is, if Steam had some QC, then we would have more diamonds than crap. Also, as a direct result of this, game devs would strive to make better games, because they would know Steam has some standards. Currently, it is "anything goes". If they had some kind of evaluation, I would think twice before submitting my game to Steam. In short, this would only improve the quality of games.

To be fair, though, the good thing is the crappy games don't take space from good games, there's room for everyone. Still, it would be nice to have some quality control, especially when it comes to adult games. Hell, some of them are just slideshows. Steam allow lazy devs to have cashgrabs on their store. I'm using the adult genre because it's more obvious in this genre, but it happens in all of them, to a certain extent.

We can refund games, of course. Still, there are limits for that and I believe no one likes to refund a game.

Steam DID, it was called Steam Greenlight. It literally lived for I think a year before it got shutdown as other sites like Itch IO and even Game Jolt had existed for so long alot of people that went on Greenline just abandoned Steam Greenlight and went back to the others as they were already known over there and barely on Steam. Heck a few known ones started out there including Baldys Basics on Itch and even interestingly on Game Jolt..

https://gamejolt.com/games/batim/231092

Bendy started its life over there before both came to Steam, however they came over after they got out of testing and people enjoyed them. Not many do the indy dev sites tho beyond those that literally release adult games that they bootleg translated and sold as theirs which most are not, their just stolen google translated re-sells or simply dont leave even alpha access stage.

No, they didn't. Steam left the quality control to gamers, a community known for its trolling capabilities. What a brilliant idea...

What I was suggesting is Steam itself should evaluate a game before selling it, not its users.