Is Valve actively vetting developer requests to revoke keys?

[GRIMM]

I am curious about their process for approving this.

I, like quite a few others, had a game revoked today that was legitimately purchased. The same thing happend to another game about a month ago. The earlier one was sort of resolved for some people I guess, via the developer redistributing keys for those who had proof of purchase. And this one does not like it is going to get resolved in the same manner unfortunately.

One person on my friends list also had about 4 or 5 other games revoked.

There have been several of these issues lately with devs revoking keys. It's kind of unsettling to know one of my games can be removed at any time, and without any real communication as to the reasoning it was removed.

I am hoping this does not become a trend.

[MancSoulja]

Początkowo opublikowane przez theseraph1:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Start_Running:

Or he buys enough copies from Steam himself to cover the keys he needs to generate.

since its the developer in question, isn't he able to create keys free of charge?

Valve introduced new and rather strict rules over key generation about 6 months ago because there was an influx of shady devs who generated thousands of keys and used bot accounts to farm cards to sell on the market.

They can and often do refuse to generate multiple batches of keys for a developer unless the game is selling well.

[Winged One]

Początkowo opublikowane przez MancSoulja:

Początkowo opublikowane przez theseraph1:

since its the developer in question, isn't he able to create keys free of charge?

Valve introduced new and rather strict rules over key generation about 6 months ago because there was an influx of shady devs who generated thousands of keys and used bot accounts to farm cards to sell on the market.

They can and often do refuse to generate multiple batches of keys for a developer unless the game is selling well.

I thought those restrictions were a game does not get cards or achievements until a certain amount of revenue?

[Count_Dandyman]

Początkowo opublikowane przez theseraph1:

Początkowo opublikowane przez MancSoulja:

Valve introduced new and rather strict rules over key generation about 6 months ago because there was an influx of shady devs who generated thousands of keys and used bot accounts to farm cards to sell on the market.

They can and often do refuse to generate multiple batches of keys for a developer unless the game is selling well.

I thought those restrictions were a game does not get cards or achievements until a certain amount of revenue?

They are all restrictions Valve added we just hear about the key generation limit less because it doesn't directly affect customers so they don't come moaning about it.

[dcrockerjr]

when a dev fraudulently revokes keys, even if they were to supply replacement keys, that places an undue time and financial burden on the affected customers and store's customer service.
a store should be able to provide valve with relevant receipts allowing valve to undo the revocation directly, but right now there is not a process in place for this.
also after committing fraud a dev should lose the ability to revoke keys and be banned from making further sales on steam

[Kenzo]

Yea

[Start_Running]

Początkowo opublikowane przez dcrockerjr:

when a dev fraudulently revokes keys, even if they were to supply replacement keys, that places an undue time and financial burden on the affected customers and store's customer service.

Fraudulently?

If the dev has acknowledged that it was in error then it was not fraud but simple human error. It happens. If the developer has not acknowledged wrong doing then it's a matter between the developer and the store. The store in the interim needs to give you a refund.

a store should be able to provide valve with relevant receipts allowing valve to undo the revocation directly, but right now there is not a process in place for this.

Receipts can be forged. Its why accounting is a double-entry system. If the Store shows paperwork that says they transfered the money but the dev shows paperwork showing no money was received... well then. someone is lying and it's not Valve's place to stick their necks into the dispute.

also after committing fraud a dev should lose the ability to revoke keys and be banned from making further sales on steam

Again fraud must be proven...legally. and there is a big difference between fraud and human error. Secondly Valve cannot revoke access to a toolset that the devs are paying them for. It'd be like your landlord telling you you can't lock your apartment door.

As has been said. Press the store in question for a refund. They are the ones that owe it to you.

[dcrockerjr]

@ Start_Running : I used the term "fraudulently" in part because it seems like they are required to complete a statement that they didn't get paid to do the revocation and partly because revoking all the keys they've ever sold seems extreme.
otoh in fairness i do not know how bad the interface/form a dev has to work with is, perhaps if we saw that it was badly laid out or confusing we would have more sympathy for the devs.

[Start_Running]

Początkowo opublikowane przez dcrockerjr:

@ Start_Running : I used the term "fraudulently" in part because it seems like they are required to complete a statement that they didn't get paid to do the revocation and partly because revoking all the keys they've ever sold seems extreme.

And in both cases your use of fraudulent is incorrect.

otoh in fairness i do not know how bad the interface/form a dev has to work with is, perhaps if we saw that it was badly laid out or confusing we would have more sympathy for the devs.

Thius has nothing to do with sympathy. This is business. The deve revoked the key, get your money back from the store that sold you the key. and let the store hammer the details out with the developer in court.

[dcrockerjr]

"Secondly Valve cannot revoke access to a toolset that the devs are paying them for. It'd be like your landlord telling you you can't lock your apartment door."
nice double standard
"get your money back from the store that sold you the key"
why would I want to punish an innocent third party store for the actions of another, what if the store can't recover compensation
"fraud must be proven...legally. and there is a big difference between fraud and human error. "
the most compelling thing the dev could do if it were truly an accident would be to unrevoke the keys, in another thread someone established there is precedent for that, but that would require the dev ask valve to fix it.

[Start_Running]

Początkowo opublikowane przez dcrockerjr:

"Secondly Valve cannot revoke access to a toolset that the devs are paying them for. It'd be like your landlord telling you you can't lock your apartment door."
nice double standard

It's only a double standard if you hold one side of the equation to a higher standard than the other.

"get your money back from the store that sold you the key"
why would I want to punish an innocent third party store for the actions of another, what if the store can't recover compensation

Because they are the ones you have a sales contract with. Valve is not a part of that contract. The Retailer promised to provide you with a valid, legit key. Your key was revoked through no fault of your own, ergo the retailer has not fulfilled their part of the sales contract.

The store can recover their losses from the publisher in court if need be. That's just how things work in business.

"fraud must be proven...legally. and there is a big difference between fraud and human error. "
the most compelling thing the dev could do if it were truly an accident would be to unrevoke the keys, in another thread someone established there is precedent for that, but that would require the dev ask valve to fix it.

So. The hold up is somewhere within the developer. Ergo, you get your money back from the retailer and let the retailer hold the publisher's feet to the fire over it. Why people gotta make something so simple so complicated?

In some cases the retailer is innocent. In some cases they aren't so innocent the point is if they are reputable they will honor the terms of contract and refund you. Otherwise you can take them to court for it.

[dcrockerjr]

"Because they are the ones you have a sales contract with"
it was a Greenlight bundle, we put up money before the dev even had a product back in 2014, the dev didn't actually get their product on to steam till 2017 and at that time they fulfilled the keys which we redeemed in a timely manner; in other words these are all old transactions/deals from 1 to 4 years ago depending on how you look at it. key support from groupees is only 30 days. that leaves the dev a both the cause of the problem and the responsible party
https://groupees.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/207216196-How-long-are-keys-supported-for-

[anto_capone]

Surprised to see so many people shooting themselves in their own foot on this, because if no one stands up against this type of anti-consumer behavior it will only keep happening.

I had my first ever key revoked less than a month ago, and my second ever key revoked a week after that.

This first key was bought through Otaku bundle, the second through Indiegala.

Both devs claimed to have issues with the marketplaces, which is odd because these games were bundled many months ago.

It was already proven that one of these devs lied about receiving payment, and both devs have been actively deleting threads about this on thier forums and banning people as well as ignoring repeated attempts for further imformation.

We've all heard the story about the one dev who revoked keys of people who left bad reviews of his game...

The point is, devs are people. Some are good, some are bad. Some are not always going to make the best choices.

There needs to be some sort of due process that gives some more protection to the users of the Steam plaftorm. We're not talking about grey market sites, or fraudulent payments- we are talking about consenting parties that agreed to a transaction long ago. The fact they disagree now should not retroactively invalidate our purchases for these games. We consumers are being punished when we are not at fault.

I really just hope these are isolated incidents, but twice in a span of a week for my 1st and 2nd time out of over 3000 games has me a bit concerned. Whether it is a simple mistake or a malicious actor, there currently isn't any sort of due process and any developer can simply invalidate all their keys just to give us Steam users the bird if they wished...

[Count_Dandyman]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anto_capone:

Surprised to see so many people shooting themselves in their own foot on this, because if no one stands up against this type of anti-consumer behavior it will only keep happening.

I had my first ever key revoked less than a month ago, and my second ever key revoked a week after that.

This first key was bought through Otaku bundle, the second through Indiegala.

Both devs claimed to have issues with the marketplaces, which is odd because these games were bundled many months ago.

It was already proven that one of these devs lied about receiving payment, and both devs have been actively deleting threads about this on thier forums and banning people as well as ignoring repeated attempts for further imformation.

We've all heard the story about the one dev who revoked keys of people who left bad reviews of his game...

The point is, devs are people. Some are good, some are bad. Some are not always going to make the best choices.

There needs to be some sort of due process that gives some more protection to the users of the Steam plaftorm. We're not talking about grey market sites, or fraudulent payments- we are talking about consenting parties that agreed to a transaction long ago. The fact they disagree now should not retroactively invalidate our purchases for these games. We consumers are being punished when we are not at fault.

I really just hope these are isolated incidents, but twice in a span of a week for my 1st and 2nd time out of over 3000 games has me a bit concerned. Whether it is a simple mistake or a malicious actor, there currently isn't any sort of due process and any developer can simply invalidate all their keys just to give us Steam users the bird if they wished...

It has not been proven at all that the Urban War Defense dev has lied which you would know if you weren't just blindly letting Indiegala feed you their narrative.

The dev did not say he hadn't recieved any payment in fact he has confirmed he recieved payment and confirmed sales for just under 4000 keys from Groupees and Indiegala combined. What the dev has said is that he has seen evidence that more keys than that are being activated meaning somebody has been giving out or selling keys without paying him after that. In other words an undetailed reciept saying look we paid him does not in any way alter or show the devs claim to be false.

Unfortunatly in cases like this you can't say which of the keys was paid for or not unless the store gives you exact details so the choice was made to block all and try offering replacements to those who could provide evidence that the one they had was one of the legit ones.

[anto_capone]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Count_Dandyman:

It has not been proven at all that the Urban War Defense dev has lied which you would know if you weren't just blindly letting Indiegala feed you their narrative.

The dev did not say he hadn't recieved any payment in fact he has confirmed he recieved payment and confirmed sales for just under 4000 keys from Groupees and Indiegala combined. What the dev has said is that he has seen evidence that more keys than that are being activated meaning somebody has been giving out or selling keys without paying him after that.

In this case the dev saw key activations coming from this bundle and either did not account for anyone that held onto their key to activate at a later date, or he was being a malicious actor in all of this.

So in cases like this, even all the keys were paid for, the dev saw people activating their keys a year later and made a 'mistake' that still has not been resolved. Personally, I think he is lying; but what if he is telling the truth? If he can accidentally invalidate all the keys based on such BS, then it means no storefront is safe.

In this game, it's a nothing bundle game; but what will the next game be?

[Winged One]

Początkowo opublikowane przez anto_capone:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Count_Dandyman:

It has not been proven at all that the Urban War Defense dev has lied which you would know if you weren't just blindly letting Indiegala feed you their narrative.

The dev did not say he hadn't recieved any payment in fact he has confirmed he recieved payment and confirmed sales for just under 4000 keys from Groupees and Indiegala combined. What the dev has said is that he has seen evidence that more keys than that are being activated meaning somebody has been giving out or selling keys without paying him after that.

In this case the dev saw key activations coming from this bundle and either did not account for anyone that held onto their key to activate at a later date, or he was being a malicious actor in all of this.

So in cases like this, even all the keys were paid for, the dev saw people activating their keys a year later and made a 'mistake' that still has not been resolved. Personally, I think he is lying; but what if he is telling the truth? If he can accidentally invalidate all the keys based on such BS, then it means no storefront is safe.

In this game, it's a nothing bundle game; but what will the next game be?

its not they were being activated later, it was keys being activated that were apparently never sold (or they were not provided records of the sale)


what do you think he would gain by deactivating keys for the hell of it?