13 to 17 year olds and new tax billing data.

[Γαῖα]

Im wondering where exactly steam has made the effort to explain to minors legally old enough to hold a steam account and vulnerable adults in a clear and concise way they can understand regarding the new asking for billing information which is legally termed as personal data.

We dont give them the vote for a reason, a reason being that they havent experienced enough in life to make an informed decision regarding important matters.

Surely steam inform all their under 18 and vulnerable account holders of what personal data, lawful consent and right of process is ?

[Brian9824]

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

Read your title......



If you gave a steam account to a 13 year old i'm pretty sure they could grasp what an address or phone number is.....

If anyone has any questions they are free to ask steam support who will provide that information for you and assist you.

Law exists on the basis of something is or is not. It does not make assumptions or blanket cover a group. You can never assume a 13 year old knows what personal data and non personal data is.
A parent does not assume their child is a good kid. They set boundaries/rules via clear explanation. This is a core principle all adults should demonstrate when dealing with the two classes of vulnerable people. Its not just about law, its also about ethics.

Again they don't need to know any of that info. All that steam asks to be provided is a phone number and address. If their parent has concerns its their responsibility to monitor what their children do.

Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online. That is up to the parents and is called PARENTING.

[Γαῖα]

Messaggio originale di Crazy Tiger:

First question that comes to mind is: How can Steam possibly know who is either 13-17 or "vulnerable"?

Anyone under 18 is instantly by virtue of being a minor classed as vulnerable. With adults, some its easy to know via settings, some not.
The point is as sure as the sun comes up, steam has minors and ill and disabled members whether they are aware of it or not.
If america has vulnerable person laws like the UK then every business is mandated to make provisions for them even if none ever enter the business be they staff or customer.

[Γαῖα]

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

Law exists on the basis of something is or is not. It does not make assumptions or blanket cover a group. You can never assume a 13 year old knows what personal data and non personal data is.
A parent does not assume their child is a good kid. They set boundaries/rules via clear explanation. This is a core principle all adults should demonstrate when dealing with the two classes of vulnerable people. Its not just about law, its also about ethics.

Again they don't need to know any of that info. All that steam asks to be provided is a phone number and address. If their parent has concerns its their responsibility to monitor what their children do.

Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online. That is up to the parents and is called PARENTING.

Im afraid they are like for instance taking the steps to try to prevent minors from accessing material rated above their age. Gambling and i could go on.
Anyone who has access to these groups who are not the actual parents in the course of their business have a legal obligation to.

[Brian9824]

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

Again they don't need to know any of that info. All that steam asks to be provided is a phone number and address. If their parent has concerns its their responsibility to monitor what their children do.

Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online. That is up to the parents and is called PARENTING.

Im afraid they are like for instance taking the steps to try to prevent minors from accessing material rated above their age. Gambling and i could go on.

They already do, their are age gates that cover that. It's all you can do to prevent someone online.

Again if someone is under age or mentally disabled its not steam's job to parent them, its their actual guardian. Steam already complies with what information is gathered by anyone who is a minor.

So parent's need to actually parent and monitor what their kids do online.

[Γαῖα]

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

Im afraid they are like for instance taking the steps to try to prevent minors from accessing material rated above their age. Gambling and i could go on.

They already do, their are age gates that cover that. It's all you can do to prevent someone online.

Again if someone is under age or mentally disabled its not steam's job to parent them, its their actual guardian. Steam already complies with what information is gathered by anyone who is a minor.

So parent's need to actually parent and monitor what their kids do online.

You just said i quote "Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online.

That is a legal requirement bought about because of morals / socially acceptable.

[Brian9824]

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

They already do, their are age gates that cover that. It's all you can do to prevent someone online.

Again if someone is under age or mentally disabled its not steam's job to parent them, its their actual guardian. Steam already complies with what information is gathered by anyone who is a minor.

So parent's need to actually parent and monitor what their kids do online.

You just said i quote "Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online.

That is a legal requirement bought about because of morals / socially acceptable.

No it is not. Steam complies with all the laws regarding data collection, and has an age-gate for adult content that is acceptable by law for minors.

That is the extent of their responsibility. There is nothing else required of steam in the respect of minors on their site.

[rawWwRrr]

Messaggio originale di cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Messaggio originale di ʀᴀᴡWᴡRʀʀ:

I've been anywhere from 45 to 120 depending how far through the years I want to scroll for the age verification. Happy Birthday to the rest of us January 1sters!

I'm 120 years old!

:qr:

It's going to be a very awkward high five but we'll give it a shot!

[Herald_UK]

Tbh, if it was up to me, I'd bar under 18s from even using the internet. Enforcing it would be a total stinker and a waste of time... But the theory is sound (like every other failure heh)...

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di cSg|mc-Hotsauce:

Messaggio originale di Chompman:

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6088-UDXM-7214&l=#providing1099s

Tax info was scrapped for the Market.

Will you be asking me to provide tax information to you, and/or will you be providing 1099’s based on my transactions in the Community Market?

Previously we required that U.S. citizens and residents provide us with certain information, including name, address and social security number, prior to exceeding 200 separate sales transactions in a calendar year. We have concluded that this information is not required and we will no longer be asking you for this information as part of Community Market participation. We will also not be providing IRS Form 1099’s with respect to sales activity in the Community Market.

:qr:

We have concluded that this information is not required and we will no longer be asking you for this information

Aka

Oops; that was a boo-boo. But thanks for sharing your SSN with us all the same.

Which shows how well-informed Valve is in regards to legal obligations for taxes, like some forum members have been white-knighting them in other threads. :: rolls eyes ::

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

Steam complies with all the laws regarding data collection

The mere act of requesting personal data falls under the definition of processing personal data for the GDPR. If they allow purchase of a title by a minor and said minor is asked to supply billing address, which is personal data, then they are processing data of a minor.

Under the GDPR they are not allowed to process data of said minor unless they have sufficiently verified that the have permission to process that data from the minor's legal guardian.


The only legal method they can make this work is if they authenticate the age of the minor's legal guardian e.g. via a one time 1 EUR payment via credit-card; bank-transfer; etc. to verify account-holder age - and thereafter instruct the legal guardian to set-up a linked child account.

The child account could then be configured to allow purchases that need approval from the guardian's master-account; can purchase from a set budget approved by the guardian; etc.
Pick from any suitable option, but all of which ultimately are the guardian paying and all of which use the guardian's billing information.


This is how Sony implements things for PSN/SEN. And it works.
The only problem with it is that hardly anyone uses it, because the average parent is still a luddite when it comes to these type of services and is not -- or even; does not care to be -- informed on these matters.

[Γαῖα]

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

You just said i quote "Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online.

That is a legal requirement bought about because of morals / socially acceptable.

No it is not. Steam complies with all the laws regarding data collection, and has an age-gate for adult content that is acceptable by law for minors.

That is the extent of their responsibility. There is nothing else required of steam in the respect of minors on their site.

That is a law is it not. I repeat you said "Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online".

Steam also enters into agreements when allowing people to register. There is a law for minors regarding that to.
When talking data acts, steam is legally mandated no matter age to act accordingly.
So contract/agreement law and data law. Two more for you.
Oh i almost forgot laws regarding lawful consent.

[rawWwRrr]

In order for Valve to strictly enforce some kind of age restriction, they would need verifiable proof, would they not?

Is anyone who is making demands of Valve to make that kind of restriction prepared to hand over personally identifiable documentation to prove that you are over a certain age threshold? Prepared to hand over driver's license information, social security numbers, bank statements, proof of employment/residence? Allow Valve to run a background check on you and gather criminal and financial information about your creditworthiness? Having a Steam account is not akin to taking out a student loan or buying property. Even then, there have been people known to circumvent or forge documents to do things they are not legally allowed to do.

Stop making it seem like Valve is destroying civil liberties by abiding to the laws and regulations that they are forced to adhere in which to conduct business by asking for billing data.

[Brian9824]

Messaggio originale di ʀᴀᴡWᴡRʀʀ:

In order for Valve to strictly enforce some kind of age restriction, they would need verifiable proof, would they not?

Is anyone who is making demands of Valve to make that kind of restriction prepared to hand over personally identifiable documentation to prove that you are over a certain age threshold? Prepared to hand over driver's license information, social security numbers, bank statements, proof of employment/residence? Allow Valve to run a background check on you and gather criminal and financial information about your creditworthiness? Having a Steam account is not akin to taking out a student loan or buying property. Even then, there have been people known to circumvent or forge documents to do things they are not legally allowed to do.

Stop making it seem like Valve is destroying civil liberties by abiding to the laws and regulations that they are forced to adhere in which to conduct business by asking for billing data.

it's actually against the law in most places to ask for that information.

Messaggio originale di Γαῖα:

Messaggio originale di brian9824:

No it is not. Steam complies with all the laws regarding data collection, and has an age-gate for adult content that is acceptable by law for minors.

That is the extent of their responsibility. There is nothing else required of steam in the respect of minors on their site.

That is a law is it not. I repeat you said "Steam is not legally, morally, or socially responsible for what people's children do online".

Steam also enters into agreements when allowing people to register. There is a law for minors regarding that to.
When talking data acts, steam is legally mandated no matter age to act accordingly.
So contract/agreement law and data law. Two more for you.

it is not. The only laws are in regards to data collection and age verification which steam already complies with and has for years.

What law are you referring to exactly that you think steam is violating...

[Γαῖα]

Messaggio originale di ʀᴀᴡWᴡRʀʀ:

In order for Valve to strictly enforce some kind of age restriction, they would need verifiable proof, would they not?

Is anyone who is making demands of Valve to make that kind of restriction prepared to hand over personally identifiable documentation to prove that you are over a certain age threshold? Prepared to hand over driver's license information, social security numbers, bank statements, proof of employment/residence? Allow Valve to run a background check on you and gather criminal and financial information about your creditworthiness? Having a Steam account is not akin to taking out a student loan or buying property. Even then, there have been people known to circumvent or forge documents to do things they are not legally allowed to do.

Stop making it seem like Valve is destroying civil liberties by abiding to the laws and regulations that they are forced to adhere in which to conduct business by asking for billing data.

Processing must be proportional to need.

Steam dont offer credit so wouldnt need to do a credit check. They also wouldnt need to do a criminal background check for a purchase or to even register. Also considering the age at which you can register is 13, an age verification check wouldnt be really warranted either unless your expressing our 6 and 8 year olds are planning to cue up wall street to take over the world.
This isnt ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥.

[RiO]

Messaggio originale di ʀᴀᴡWᴡRʀʀ:

Is anyone who is making demands of Valve to make that kind of restriction prepared to hand over personally identifiable documentation to prove that you are over a certain age threshold?

There is no need for that.
One need simply ask that the person in question pays a small fee via a payment method backed by a bank or credit-card company. There are procedures based on minimal disclosure which will allow verification through a simple question such as: "Is this account holder of legal age? [yes/no]"

If you're looking for an automated means; those exist as well.
E.g. iDEAL payments have a complementary standard called iDIN which allow a limited type of these queries to be executed automatically.